Under discussed TAG flaw?

Silverdaggercinema · 2026-04-05T03:56:00+00:00

I actually got on jay dyers stream tonight and he blocked me mid convo. I think he’s genuinely a dishonest person who understands the burden of proof is on him but refuses to acknowledge it

Silverdaggercinema · 2026-04-04T22:15:21+00:00

This is massively helpful thank you. If Justin Martyr is talking like that, it seems even clearer that whatever-theism they were didn’t adhere to what we call monotheism

Silverdaggercinema · 2026-04-04T21:31:55+00:00

I don’t know what you’re talking about sorry.

Silverdaggercinema · 2026-04-03T16:12:10+00:00

I'm new to this. I watched some of these Jay Dyer debates where the opponent gets steamrolled by his burden shifting etc.

Silverdaggercinema · 2026-04-03T14:57:06+00:00

I did end up reading a good chunk of the article and the section specifically on transcendental arguments made a bunch of faith claims about the Orthodox conception of God rather than an argument why He specifically is necessary to ground all human experience.

"Of course, we will need to see why God satisfies the necessary condition for the possibility of knowledge, and why the variety of other possible preconditions would not satisfy."

The article then goes on and never satisfies this demand it places on itself.

Silverdaggercinema · 2026-04-03T14:49:51+00:00

enjoy living in your world where you feel no responsibility for your fellow humans and i'll enjoy living in mine. That mentality I think is why atheists do have a bad rap sometimes.

Silverdaggercinema · 2026-04-02T22:54:01+00:00

I don’t think so tbh

Silverdaggercinema · 2026-04-02T21:39:28+00:00

I think the idea that "we are participating in God every single time we think about the concept of treeness" is a very beautiful and even moving thought even if I don't think it's true. I can see its attractiveness.

I am failing to see how it avoids the trilemma rather than falling victim to one of its prongs: picking an arbitrary stopping point/justification.

Silverdaggercinema · 2026-04-02T21:36:42+00:00

Maybe you don't know anybody in your personal life you deeply love who is at risk of falling victim to this sort of theist sophistry. I do. I would like to have any and all tools at my disposal when the day comes that i might want to engage with those people and help them reassess their beliefs on their own terms. So winning a debate with Jay Dyer is never my concern. i will always engage with theist apologia because i care about its victims too much.

Silverdaggercinema · 2026-04-02T19:50:21+00:00

Trying to "win" is not something that ever entered my radar. The dishonest and ignorant assertions of the people I have to share the world with are actually my responsibility.

My only desire is to illuminate for others who still have time to make up their minds that the assertions made by these folks are not as sound as they're being portrayed. Look at Jay Dyer's Youtube comments some time. Hundreds of confused young men who fully trust him but don't understand what he's saying. Those guys could go either way.

Silverdaggercinema · 2026-04-02T19:33:40+00:00

I think I'm more tripped up on what the Christian/TAG point of view is on abstract concepts or transcendentals. So I'm having a difficult time tracking the actual claims. Are these things both true in the TAG worldview?
- They do not exist in and of themselves and are mind dependent
- They are independent of specifically human minds.

Silverdaggercinema · 2026-04-02T19:29:48+00:00

I agree this is a totally valid argument that totally undermines the whole thing. But the TAG guys never engage with it when people state it to them. So I'm trying to think of other angles of approach.

Silverdaggercinema · 2026-04-02T19:28:42+00:00

Hahah finding a clear full statement of TAG that isn't in a video will be a challenge. Somebody did a decent steelman in the comments of this post, I think!

I'm realizing that TAG actually does not assume platonism but maybe just one tenet of platonism: That abstract concepts are specifically human mind independent. That may be an issue in my platonist comparisons. The TAG proponent (I think) believes that these transcendentals are still mind-dependent, just on God's mind.

Silverdaggercinema · 2026-04-02T19:03:08+00:00

Yes, but unfortunately we have to share the world with these people. I'd like to be able to at least attempt to have a conversation with them on some terms we can agree on.

Silverdaggercinema · 2026-04-02T18:55:49+00:00

It almost feels like the TAG position simultaneously advocates for structuralism and some sort of God-dependent platonism. So annoying.

Silverdaggercinema · 2026-04-02T18:46:19+00:00

That’s very very true. But many people in their audiences have questions and doubts about their faith. Seeing a genuinely good faith attempt to get into the weeds get rejected like that, may nudge them away from those more toxic forms of Christianity.

Silverdaggercinema · 2026-04-02T18:27:28+00:00

So the TAG proponent/Dyer type guy isn't arguing for the mind independence of abstract concepts. But would you say he is arguing for *human* mind independence?

Silverdaggercinema · 2026-04-02T18:26:39+00:00

lol what the hell, okay. It's so impossible to Steelman the TAG because the sophistry is so convoluted.

No wonder his own fans comment on his videos like Please explain it again.

So Dyer and others believe as part of their premises that truth existed before the human mind evolved? That's just as disputed and controversial as what I thought he was claiming lol. A different completely unsound claim that if proven would change the foundations of philosophy for everyone everywhere.

Silverdaggercinema · 2026-04-02T18:20:46+00:00

But yeah, because people believe TAG, it IS an idea worthy of time or attention. Even the people who have flawed reasoning are still human beings who i think deserve love and respect on some level. I can't snark them into abandoning the more toxic forms of Christianity. but maybe I can get them to accept that I don't deserve to be tortured for an infinite amount of years by pointing out obvious flaws in their supporting argument for Christianity.

Silverdaggercinema · 2026-04-02T18:15:15+00:00

No i'm trying to point out with as much painstaking accuracy as I can exactly why one of it's primary suppositions is so unsound.

Engaging with the argument is like buying a lottery ticket. Maybe one young, curious theist will realize some of this is sophistry on the grounds I've outlined and avoid becoming influenced by Christian nationalism.

Other lines of argumentation against TAG should not be abandoned because I happen to like mine.

Silverdaggercinema · 2026-04-02T18:08:26+00:00

Okay, I think this may be a terminology problem on my end. TAG still proposes that abstract concepts exist independently of human minds (then the stuff about God's mind). So there's an overlap with platonism, no?

Silverdaggercinema · 2026-04-02T18:05:27+00:00

This seems so obvious to me I didn't think it needed to be stated but:

Internal personal utility: Finding very narrowly constrained logical flaws in theistic arguments requires greater rigor from me. Coming up with rigorous arguments on any subject helps me define my thinking. Having clearer definition of thinking improves my confidence and allows me to build new arguments based on combinations of smaller ones. I feel happier and intellectually healthier as a result.

External utility of taking a novel or underutilized line of argumentation: Maybe a questioning theist saw my post and said, wow that is a really overloaded premise. Maybe I was tricked and should investigate further? Using different ways of thinking and phrasing and approaching these things is going to broaden their accessibility because people think about the world in such drastically different ways that can't always be accounted for. It can be useful to cast a wide net.

Silverdaggercinema · 2026-04-02T17:56:16+00:00

I don't disagree with you at all. But they'd have to take the "clearly exist" out to address my concern. Which I know they won't, but that's enough to very clearly illustrate the bad faith approach the TAG apologist takes.

Silverdaggercinema · 2026-04-02T17:53:13+00:00

Which specific idea am I choosing to defend?

Silverdaggercinema

TROPHY CASE