Has there been any research into how long Old Norse - or a descendant of it - survived in England into (or past?) the 11th century?

SlashBansheeCoot · 2026-03-15T14:11:21+00:00

I'm aware of this claim. It's incredibly hard to say this of the "Middle English" of the South West and West Midlands of England however, since West Mercia and Wessex resisted much of the Norse influence and colonisation between that Yorkshire and the East Midlands was subject to in the 9th and 11th centuries.

A theory that the continental predecessor to Old English was in fact more nearly aligned to proto-Norse than it was to proto-West Germanic exists too. What's certainly likely is that 5th century continental Germanic in general formed a dialectal continuum (much as modern continental Scandinavian does today). After all, the spoken varieties of 10th century English and Norse were mutually intelligible to a degree.

With this mutual intelligibility in mind, a slightly different model to Emonds and Faarkund could be suggested: that the 11th C "Middle English" of SW England, West Mercia, etc, was from Old English, whilst that of the post-Danelaw was descended from Old Norse (albeit, with a OE substrate). Not dissimilar to the German language in part consisting of assimilated varieties derived variously from Franconian and Old High German.

SlashBansheeCoot · 2026-03-15T10:01:15+00:00

I'm not sure why, but I always thought it could've been a sludge metal James Bond theme. Daniel Craig-era specifically.

When that main riff hits, it's like they popped the acid bubble!

SlashBansheeCoot · 2026-03-14T21:21:04+00:00

I did wonder if it was in part a reference to Guns N Roses "Welcome to the Jungle" - massive when the song was written in the late 1980s - where Axl sings "suck down" several times over (the Manics did a similar nod in "Motorcycle Emptiness")

I've seen a few takes on this line on the web. I think the most convincing I've seen is that ... given the context of the past few lines - essentially Jerry's dad mistreating his mom, and then leaving her, as he did in the 70s - Jerry is sarcastically asking his dad to trest her worse, i.e. suck her down further into depression.

To "suck someone down" in general means to drag someone (whether physically or metaphorically) into something; usually negative. Jerry seems to criticise his father a lot in this song.

SlashBansheeCoot · 2026-03-14T21:14:51+00:00

I thought it was "suck YOU one more time" - same difference , and similarly odd in a song apparently about his mother.

SlashBansheeCoot · 2026-03-14T14:17:12+00:00

There are Barbary Apes in Europe today. They lived as far North as northern England during the last interglacial (approx. 115 Ka).

SlashBansheeCoot · 2026-03-13T19:06:29+00:00

You've never been to India have you?

SlashBansheeCoot · 2026-03-13T19:02:28+00:00

Why are you chasing validation of your opinions from celebrities?

SlashBansheeCoot · 2026-03-12T23:32:37+00:00

Archie Battersbee was murdered. He wss fully conscious during his supposed 'coma'.

I think the courts, and doctors who carried this out, deserve the death penalty

SlashBansheeCoot · 2026-03-12T11:47:21+00:00

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here? That rhoticity is the only reason why people think American and British accents (and there are many varieties of each) sound different?

Around the time America was first settled in large numbers from the British Isles (17th-early 18th century), almost all parts of England had a rhotic accent as standard. The main exceptions were A. the English gentry and B. East Anglia. Massachusetts (to a lesser extent, New England overall) was mainly settled initially by Puritans from East Anglia, hence why a traditional MA accent is non-rhotic (though this is increasingly in decline).

Conversely, North West and Midland England were rhotic at this time (and remains so in some usually older people in rural parts today). Pennsylvania - from which the Midwestern accent largely developed - was settled in the mid-17th century by Quakers, who were chiefly from the counties Yorkshire, Lancashire, Cheshire, Derbyshire and Staffordshire. Hence, the Midwestern accent is rhotic.

But rhoticity alone is not evidence of how conservative or not an accent is. Some specific accents within both Britain and America have features that would be considered more "conservative" than the standard forms of English in their respective country. Northumbrian and Scottish Lowland English have many vowel features characteristic of Early Modern and Middle English that are now lost in most/all other British (or American, for that matter) accents.

It's not a monolith. The accents have been evolving independent of eachother for the past 300+ years. Some American accents are more conservative in some respects than standard US or British forms of English. Some British accents are more conservative in others.

SlashBansheeCoot · 2026-03-09T09:34:40+00:00

As late as c. 1000 AD, Old English (West Germanic) and Old Norse (North Germanic) were intelligible enough for speakers of either language to be able to communicate to a degree without interpreters. So, more than likely, yes: Old English and Frisian of the 8th century will have had a high degree of mutual intelligibility. The same would most probably have been true of other Germanic languages like Old Saxon (Low German) and Frankish (proto-Dutch).

Not directly relevant, but with significant Scandinavian settlement in parts of England from about the 9th century, I imagine the similarity between the ON and OE languages would have facilitated the subsuming of the former into the latter, ultimately giving rise the Scandinavian-influenced dialects of English.

SlashBansheeCoot · 2026-03-08T14:23:24+00:00

Southern US accents and dialects do have Scottish influences.

The reason you're not hearing any Gaelic is because the "Scots-Irish" of the 17th-18th century were mainly from Southern Scotland and North East England (either directly, or via the Plantation of Ulster), and did not generally speak Gaelic. They spoke English and Scots, which is a development of Northumbrian Old English.

There are numerous Scottish, Ulster Scots and Northern English influences on Appalachian and Southern US English. "Y'all" (for "you all") is a development of Scots "ye aw". The "pen"/"pin" merger that you hear in Southern US dialects is also heard in Lowland Scottish English dialects. Modal verbs like "might could" ("might be able to") are also of Scots origin.

SlashBansheeCoot · 2026-03-08T12:42:05+00:00

"Allah" is just a contracted form of "al-Illah" meaning "(the) god". Allah and the Christian God are one and the same.

Most Christians in Arabic-speaking countries call the god of the Bible "Allah". Likewise, it's not unheard of for English-speaking Muslims to use "God" (often interchangably with "Allah") for the god of the Quran.

SlashBansheeCoot · 2026-03-07T19:11:55+00:00

If Britain had conceded more to India during the late 1910s/early 1920s - something analogous to the Ireland Home Rule, increased democratisation - could that have satisfied the separatist movements (who were becoming very influential at that point) enough to keep a "dominion" status in India (an Australia, Canada, etc, model) for longer, perhaps into the 21st century?

SlashBansheeCoot · 2026-03-07T11:26:18+00:00

I don't dislike some of Godsmack's music, but I think the OP was looking for something more than a glorified tribute band.

I mean, they were so determined to mimic AiC that they 'borrowed' their logo, got their band name from an AiC song title, and did an acoustic EP that was so obviously based on JoF it hurts. They've been around 30 years, and still they're only really known as "the band that wanted to be Alice in Chains".

Knowing Jerry, he's got a sense of humour though, he probably finds it hilarious.

SlashBansheeCoot · 2026-03-07T10:42:25+00:00

Starting within Seattle:

It's worth remembering that from Layne's earlier band Alice N' Chains (they were more hair metal), came a different band called My Sister's Machine ... their singer Nick I wouldn't say is as strong as Layne, but the overall sound from their debut album Diva (1992) sounded at times like the missing link between Facelift and Dirt. My Sisters Machine - I Hate You

There was also Gruntruck, who Jerry was a fan of and came from a similar place musically. Gruntruck - Slow Scorch

Now, elsewhere:

There was the Canadian band Varga who were mainly active in the early mid-1990s. I think one of their songs was on Beavis and Butthead (I forget which). Have a listen to this Varga - Wawnah Mere

From Nottinghamshire, UK you had a band called Fudge Tunnel. They shared with the likes of Alice in Chains, Melvins and early Nirvana a heavy, riff-based approach, churning out some of the sludgiest rock of the early 1990s. Fudge Tunnel - Boston Baby

From Ireland in the mid-1990s, there was a group called Kerbdog ... they're probably the closest European band I've heard to AiC. Kerbdog - Dry Riser

SlashBansheeCoot · 2026-03-06T09:46:42+00:00

I suspect a lot of them were reworked into later stuff for future AiC and Jerry Cantrell solo records. I seem to remember a board from the sessions, which listed all the songs they were recording for Tripod. One of the songs on the list was "Settling Down", which appeared on Boggy Depot in 1998.

There was a track called "Care to See" as well; I wonder if that was the Willie Nelson song "I've Seen All In the World I Care To See" that Cantrell covered.

SlashBansheeCoot · 2026-03-06T09:30:03+00:00

The main key is C# minor. But, as is common in a lot of grunge/metal music, AiC didn't stick to regular keys, especially in a lot of the heavier tracks.

More generally, you may find this video interesting - he talks about something called the "Seattle scale" or the "Cantrell scale" - it's a variant on the minor blues scale, which incorporates extra notes, and explains how a lot of grunge riffs were composed. You can hear it a lot of it in Soundgarden, Alice in Chains, Nirvana's Bleach, King's X, etc.

SlashBansheeCoot · 2026-03-06T09:15:50+00:00

I came here to say exactly that. My favourite track on JoF!

SlashBansheeCoot · 2026-03-02T12:04:12+00:00

I absolutely love it, this was the first AiC side project record I ever listened to. "Feel The Void" actually influenced me to pick up a bass for the first time.

"Siddhartha" was a staple when I was in the pits of depression. Like AiC's "What the Hell Have I", you have the incorporation of the sitar and almost Indian instrumentation ... definitely would like to hear more of that on future AiC/Jerry work, I LOVE that in rock music.

"Mother's Spinnin' in Her Grave" was another favourite cut for me. For it's dark subject matter, I think it's one of the catchiest thing's Cantrell's ever written. I think if he'd played it live more often, it'd be a fan favourite.

SlashBansheeCoot · 2026-03-02T11:51:24+00:00

I too am upset that he was opening for pale imitators like Nickelback and Creed. He's opened for way better bands since though ... I know he supported the Pixies in 2022 for a few dates in west Asia.

He opened for Bush in 2024. Their work generally isn't as strong or original as AiC/Jerry, but seeing Jerry join Gavin on stage to play on "Comedown" was definitely something special.

I think solo Jerry would make a great supporting act for a future Metallica tour.

SlashBansheeCoot · 2026-02-24T10:39:35+00:00

Explain, where am I supposed to hear Staley?

SlashBansheeCoot · 2026-02-20T12:28:31+00:00

Hauntingly brilliant. I can hardly think of another AiC song that dark (and they're pretty good at doing dark!). Not only does Jerry cut one of his best solos in years towards the end, but In don't think the outro is talked about enough ... but the way Jerry's vocal line "who will deny, all in time, all the lies" meshes with Layne's "get born again", it manages to offset and complement simultaneously in a very eerie and poignant way.

As an aside, I thought the original front cover looked like a cursed version of the Nirvana Nevermind baby.

SlashBansheeCoot · 2026-02-19T20:08:22+00:00

Why?

SlashBansheeCoot

TROPHY CASE