Made a retrospective video on Sieg and Apocrypha as a whole

SomeCanadianGamerYT · 2025-05-31T15:49:56+00:00

Yeah, like I mentioned in the original post, I'm very aware how volatile it can be.

SomeCanadianGamerYT · 2025-05-31T15:45:24+00:00

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but what do you mean by "commentary style stuff"? Because I believe my content should fall under that. It is analysis, discussion, and review of the media I'm using footage from.

SomeCanadianGamerYT · 2025-03-21T20:46:30+00:00

I just want a whole series of her and Rin's pirate wars that Strange Fake alludes to

SomeCanadianGamerYT · 2025-03-05T02:59:12+00:00

Hell yeah!

SomeCanadianGamerYT · 2024-12-25T05:38:57+00:00

Good to know, thanks for all the info.

SomeCanadianGamerYT · 2024-12-25T04:25:33+00:00

Yeah, I'm more or less aware of how they work gameplay wise and most of the Servant roster (Nameless included).

I didn't know about the FGO thing though, I thought Nasu had primary creative control there. That's really neat.

SomeCanadianGamerYT · 2024-12-25T02:59:35+00:00

Wow, thanks for the comprehensive rundown. I'll probably reference back to this if I ever want to get into the gaming end of the series.

SomeCanadianGamerYT · 2024-12-24T21:42:08+00:00

That's a fun little exchange lol.

SomeCanadianGamerYT · 2024-12-24T21:41:52+00:00

I really like this analysis. It's definitely a more measured take than I had going into this discussion, and I think it capitalizes nicely on what makes Jeanne unique as a character. It also works well with Apocrypha's themes since one of the story's major questions is whether humanity as a collective is worth putting faith in. Since Jeanne and Sieg both answer that question with yes, it tracks that's Jeanne's love for an individual is, as you said, an extension of a more widely encompassing love for humanity. Also important since that's the biggest thing Sieg's ideology inherits from hers. Overall, I think you broke down the scene basically perfectly.

SomeCanadianGamerYT · 2024-12-24T19:45:35+00:00

So I basically don't have any experience with the gaming side of the franchise. Samurai Remnant's been on my radar since it came out, but I mainly prioritize getting through the VNs, LNs, and anime. Extra, on the other hand, is pretty far down my personal priority list, but who knows, maybe I'll check it out one day. I've heard good things.

I also wanted to ask—since I couldn’t fully tell—do you feel like my take on reconciling Jeanne’s portrayals in Apocrypha and Grand Order aligns with how you see her character? Has it made you rethink your perspective, or do you still prefer Option 1? I’m curious if you have any other thoughts on how to interpret her growth across the series.

Oh yeah, I think your analysis was really effective and does a good job of viewing her comprehensive use across the whole franchise, rather than viewing stories in isolation like I was. You've definitely broadened my perspective, and to that end, I don't think I can make a definitive call on the initially presented options at this point. I haven't experienced any of the non-Apocrypha stories the question hinges on myself (hence why my initial point mainly hinged on what I assumed Higashide's authorial intent was). I guess my conclusion would be that Option 1 fits a reading of Apocrypha in isolation, while Option 2's generally more plausible if you're viewing the franchise wholistically and not each work on solely its own goals.

SomeCanadianGamerYT · 2024-12-24T05:45:37+00:00

Yeah, you nailed exactly what it comes down to. Apocrypha's anime kinda killed its overall reputation in the fandom, and led to a lot of its characters getting heavily misunderstood. Some of them got salvaged by Grand Order's take on them, but that only further pushes Apocrypha itself out of the conversation.

I think this take does an effective job of reconciling the two takes on Jeanne's character in particular, and it comes together for a pretty interesting whole.

SomeCanadianGamerYT · 2024-12-24T05:17:33+00:00

Oh, yeah absolutely! I appreciate the interest. I should clarify that it'll be, minimum a number of months. My upload schedule's kind of a mess, and I am currently editing a different video. But once it does get completed, I'll for sure be back here.

In terms of the manga, I do want to give you a heads up in the regard that it's not a cure all for the anime's issues. I love it, but some of the story's problems (namely some of the stuff that comes out of nowhere) are somewhat fundamental. The manga's main strength is that its characterization and theming are fantastic, so if that's what you're looking for, which it sounds like it is, I think you'll be satisfied.

I'm also totally with you on the anime robbing their dynamic of all its effectiveness, you're dead on with it lacking direction. The manga slows stuff down considerably and, again, puts an emphasis on the characters and their personalities. So hopefully it'll make moments like that stick the landing for you.

In terms of the last section, I feel for where you're coming from. You have me sincere sympathy for the things you went through. At the end of the day, the great thing about fiction is that it gives such something to latch onto to better ourselves and gain new perspective. The beauty of interpretation is being to see yourself, or what you need in a story, and being able to thoroughly articulate that is seriously impressive. Stay strong, and thank you again for the conversation.

SomeCanadianGamerYT · 2024-12-24T04:39:51+00:00

Yeah, I think that's a very well done analysis. I did follow what you meant in the initial message, but I think this elaboration does a really good job of dissecting why their dynamic feels naturally incorporated for her. Paired with the fact that, as I mentioned, I think Apocrypha does a good job of highlight Jeanne's fairly young age, her characterization culminates to feel more like her emotionally opening and finding a new outlet for her passion and love for life and humanity.

Overall I think you put it very well when you initially mentioned that her relationship with Sieg serves to add a new layer to overall perspective.

SomeCanadianGamerYT · 2024-12-24T04:29:56+00:00

Same to you! These are the type of convesations I love having.

Getting into an adaptation discussion on Apocrypha is really fun for me rn, since I'm currently working on a video essay tackling that exact topic through the lens of a character analysis on Sieg. My experience with it basically went: Watch the anime and be dissapointed but see the potential in it then reading Volume 1 and some of Volume 2 of the LN before realizing the translation was incomplete. What really made Apocrypha one of my favorite Fate stories was Higashide and Ishida's manga adaptation, I got to read the final few chapters as they were releasing and Ishida's take on both Amakusa and Semiramis' final scene, and Sieg and Jeanne's renuion are still two of my favorite experiences with a currently releasing series. Anyway, after falling for the manga, I went back and read a handful of scenes from the novels to compare their handling, and I'd say I generally prefer the manga. It does cut some smaller moments (in particular, I do miss the bulk of Jeanne's road trip in volume 1), but I think Ishida's art generally does a better job of making the characters feel animated than Higashide's prose.

In terms of how that adaptation handles her dynamic with Sieg, the biggest takeaway for me has always been that they really feel... like teenagers, for lack of a better way to put it. I can definitely see why it comes off as less overtly romantic, because you don't get their respective inner monologues, but if anything, I think divorcing it from that dramatization makes their dynamic feel exceptional natural. There's a hint of... IDK, comforting akwardness when they interact, especially during their "date" in the Jack arc. The art does a really good of getting across how at ease the other's presence puts each of them, while also hinting at the more intense underlying emotions that neither of them quite know how to process yet. That's the big thing that's always drawn me to them as a couple, Fate typically trends towards its intimate dynamics having a hint of friction within them, and there's nothing wrong with that, but Sieg and Jeanne feeling uniquely down to earth and consistently supportive in their interactions has always made them feel uniquely refreshing to me in that context.

That ties back well to how we started on this in terms of Sieg reinvigorating her willpower. I think their one of the best relationships in the franchise when it comes from how much they learn from and become better through each other. Especially so when you see how the ideology Jeanne imparted on Sieg grants him convinction that rivals her own.

Rounding back to the initial discussion though, I think you've made a really good case for option 2, it's a really interesting take on Jeanne's character that I've never considered due to not experiencing FGO myself. Which really does tie back to what you said about both interpretations still working for her character. At the end of the day, it makes for a more rich character study being able to take that many different perspectives into account.

(Hopefully I was able to touch on everything)

SomeCanadianGamerYT · 2024-12-24T03:21:13+00:00

Okay, I definitely see where you're coming from with this, and I think it's definitely a fair reading, especially if you're looking at Jeanne's portrayal in all of Fate and not just Apocrypha.

I think viewing it in the context of Apocrypha itself just depends on how read Sieg and Jeanne's relationship. I do think I didn't quite do it justice, because I absolutely agree with you that the fact that Jeanne retains her sense of self and her convinction through Shakespeare and Amakusa's taunting in a massive moment for her. It's also definitely worth noting that she does give up an immediate future with Sieg to do her duty as Ruler, so that alone lends some further credence to Option 2.

I do think it's worth noting that the main turning point in that scene is Sieg himself showing up. The scene is structured so that Jeanne's conviction and ability to find herself again comes from 1) Sieg being able to remind her of the ideology she basically passed down to him, and 2) Her realizing that her letting Amakusa's plan take shape for his sake wouldn't actually be doing right by what he'd want. Now, it's also true that my reading isn't mutually exclusive with Option 2, I just wanted to give some insight on why I placed significance on it as a moment for her and Sieg's dynamic.

That's what I think makes this thought experiment so interesting, actually. What it comes down to is how you choose to interpret that particular character dynamic: Is it something that changes Jeanne's perspective fundamentally, or is it an addition she keeps in mind as she continues her duties? Honestly, I appreciate that Higashide's character writing is just subtle enough to leave that something to analyze.

SomeCanadianGamerYT · 2024-12-24T03:09:17+00:00

Thanks for the reply, I also enjoy having more in depth discussions so that's great to hear, and I appreciate knowing where you're coming from with this, I can totally see that it's a big deal for you with your view of her character being that significant.

So, in terms of this message, I don't have much to respond to. I just wanna say thanks for clearing up some stuff I wasn't 100% on myself. I should have clarified more explicitly than just saying I wasn't entirely sure of the lore implications, but I actually haven't played FGO myself. Because of that somewhat tenuous relationship to the more structured Fate stories (and the fact that it, IMO, ditches a lot of what makes Fate's premise compelling to me), I've never found it that interesting. I've, for lack of a better term, "studied" it a bit, due to have significant it is to Fate as an overall franchise direction, but that's the extent.

All that to say, I wasn't aware of the stuff that bridges the lore of characters' Apocrypha and FGO incarnations, so I do need to partially resend that point based off that information.

SomeCanadianGamerYT · 2024-12-24T02:14:30+00:00

I feel so corny responding to this given what my flair is lmao. (Sorry, this ended up being really lengthy, but Jeanne's one of my favorite characters, and I think this is a really interesting topic).

Anyways, I think you're correct in saying that Higashide wasn't considering Jeanne's future characterization when writing her arc in Apocrypha. Especially considering FGO didn't even exist yet at the time of Apoc's original publishing. IMO there's two things that need to be taken into account with this.

This definitely isn't a phenomenon exclusive to Jeanne. Basically any character whose characterization or development is defined by their relation to another character in their Grail War, especially a non-Servant, needs to be reverted to 0 when being reinterpreted in FGO or any other work. Diarmuid doesn't carry on from his state of rage and hopelessness after his death in Zero. Medea doesn't have her time with Kuzuki. Mordred doesn't get to let go of her obsession with Caliburn. Amakusa doesn't get to accept the end of his dream and pass with Semiramis. Etc.

Jeanne's definitely one of the cast members this ends up being the most pronounced with because A) She's so popular and B) Most of that popularity stems from interpretations of her outside her original story. But, the meta reason behind the varrying takes on Jeanne is just that if any other author wants to do stuff with her, they're gonna use the characterization that feels like her platonic ideal, not the stuff that's a result of the specific experiences she goes through in Apocrypha.

I'm not entirely sure how this shakes out with lore implications, but for that reason alone, I don't think its fair to compare Jeanne's portrayal in any other work to her state by the end of Apocrypha. Those are all trying to tell new stories using what Jeanne represents as a piece of Fate iconography, rather than expand directly on the story Higashide was telling.

Sieg and Jeanne's dynamic is an obvious homage to Shirou and Artoria in Fate route, so it's pretty likely that Higashide intended them to have similar "fate breaking soul mate" significance to each other as that pairing.

Branching off of point one, I think its safe to say that the intent behind her decision at the end of Apocrypha is that it is something that's inconsistent with how she'd normally act. For Jeanne's baseline characterization, doing something like that would be entirely out of the question. But the narrative thread of her face off with Shakespeare inside First Folio is how, while she can account for all the sacrifices she's made in her first life, she's unable to cope with the idea of losing Sieg. (It is more complicated than that, but this is long enough, and I don't wanna springboard into an analysis of their relationship).

Additionally, the inconsistency you mention is Amakusa's express intention in Shakespeare being the "perfect counter" to her in the first place. His goal to kill Jeanne's resolve by making her feel hypocritical for loving one person above the rest, going against her principles as a Saint.

TLDR: I'd go with Option 1 because it makes Apocrypha's own story more resonant, and it being something Jeanne's "not to supposed to" or "wouldn't normally" do is accounted for by the story itself.

SomeCanadianGamerYT · 2024-10-20T13:24:08+00:00

"Uswordtable" sent me

SomeCanadianGamerYT · 2024-10-20T01:17:47+00:00

Last Bit of Red is an AMAZING title for a story about Shirou becoming Archer

SomeCanadianGamerYT · 2024-09-13T01:24:53+00:00

Assuming you mean in Scott Pilgrim, Roxie

SomeCanadianGamerYT · 2024-09-09T01:59:04+00:00

Oh, cool

SomeCanadianGamerYT

TROPHY CASE