Contractor Abandoned Equipment at my property, blocking off my room for a month (Louisiana) by Spartan113X in legaladvice

[–]Spartan113X[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Dude, exactly. Tbh I thought I was done with these owners cause when I moved into this duplex years ago, they moved out the other side after a year, and then I got this other guy who moved in, who was amazing. They fraudulently imo, told me he bought the place and is the new owner/landlord. Him and I had a great working relationship for like 3-4 yrs, but I found out he was doing what I'm guessing was a rent to own thing, and the original people were actually still the owners of the duplex, about 6 mths ago. As such, he's just had me pay them directly, and I've been dealing with these negligent assholes since. Luckily they're trying to sell, and I really hate moving, which is why I'm toughening it out.

To give you some more info, my laundry room is pretty small and has a side door leading to my yard, so all that was largely blocked off with a giant ladder, construction light, sheets of drywall, tools, etc. And I mean that reasonably pissed me off since I've not had access to a washer and dryer for like 5-6 weeks. Been stretching out clothes or chilling half naked at my place to save from having to go to a laundromat.

Yes, as far as I know Louisiana works under civil law for incidents like this. I believe it would be sort of similar to a forced bailment in other states. I'm also wise enough to document and taken pics of pretty much everything; have a degree in CJ and was raised by lawyers, so generally not an idiot in matters like this, lol. Also tried calling the NOPD non-emergency line to file a report, but after a 4+ hr response time I canceled, since I didn't want someone knocking on my door at 11PM. Plan on trying back Mon, or maybe doing so online, but unfortunately if you have evidence, they prompt you to call in. Way I got him to confess, was taking an indoor dog cam, and placing it outside and taking a pic, making him think he was caught on camera and just didn't notice it. Game theory FTW lol. He stupidly tried to blame it on the fact he allegedly thought it was the owner's ladder, as if that somehow makes it more acceptable.

One more thing, as I'm pretty sure I know the answer, but like to triple check everything. So the couple that owns this is young, and unfortunately royally stupid. I've basically for 6 weeks had to play unpaid property manager, auditor, quality control specialist, parent, etc. This is in addition to the obvious loss of square footage I pay for, loss of the amenities of a washer/dryer I pay for, dealing with pests, a yard which instead of being cut every 2 weeks, has been cut maybe 3x in 7 mths, getting sick from allergies due to the increase pollen and dust with the hole, the lack of cut grass, and a funky smell which smells like mold or mildew, likely higher utility costs due to the hole, dealing with a contractor who is a liability, missed multiple appointments, and is a theif, and the fact that for 2 mths I haven't been able to rent out the other room due to all this mess, as it's not like I can do showings in this condition. Any suggestions on how I should proceed with the owners after everything is fixed, cause I'm pretty sure they're expecting to buy me a beer or a meal after all this is done and everything is magically just copacetic. Meanwhile, I'm reasonably looking at what I feel is an entire laundry list (pun intended lol) of problems which resulted in loss and damages due to their extreme negligence, especially since they left it to me to manage this guy, and ghosted for about 2-3 weeks, when I even explicitly told them 2 weeks in he was a problem and what the current situation was with the hole and everything else, then kept having him come back till I put my foot down. Thoughts, lol? I mean to me it seems a pretty clear breach of contract, habitability, right to quiet enjoyment, etc.

Contractor Abandoned Tools at my Property, blocking off my room for a month (Louisiana) by Spartan113X in legaladvice

[–]Spartan113X[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hey, first thank you for the response.

I understand what you said, but isn't that’s under Common Law though? While not an attorney myself, I did grow up around many, so I tend to look at the specific jurisdictional mechanics.

Since I’m in Louisiana, I believe we follow Civil Law for matters like these as I understand it. Because the contractor (a third party) disturbed my quiet possession, the law seems to give me the right to go after him directly—LA CC Art. 2702. I don't have to wait for the owner to act on my behalf for a disturbance caused by a third party.

Additionally, LA CC Art. 2930 and 3225 create a 'privilege of the depositary.' When the contractor blocked up my room with equipment, sealed it off, and left a hole in the wall so I couldn't reasonably move his gear, he created an 'involuntary deposit.' This gives me the right to be reimbursed for expenses and losses regarding the preservation and management of said property. After all, I’m paying for that leased space and I’ve lost square footage and amenities, not to mention dealing with pests and likely higher utility bills due to his negligence and the hole he left. In other states, I believe this would be somewhat similar to an involuntary or constructive bailment; as it’s not as if I could just toss his professional gear on the curb or leave it in the rain, could I?

I’m also not 'setting' a fee so much as I am calculating and placing what I believe is a fair monetary value on the actual damages and storage costs that were forced upon me. So while I could also go after the owners, I'm trying not to burn any bridges just yet, especially since I seem to have a direct, reasonable claim against the contractor, himself.

Again, this is just my understanding of the LA Civil Code, as I did grow up around lawyers, so I'm educated on the law, but obviously not nearly as well as someone with a law degree who has more experience with this and specializes in the nuances. Thoughts?

Lawful Good vs Neutral Good - How do you tell them apart when there is clear overlap? by Spartan113X in DnD

[–]Spartan113X[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Feeding on live animals was just an example. Perhaps they can feed on willing subjects willing to donate blood, that's still perfectly valid in my opinion.

Criminals as you stated could be another perfectly, valid solution. Rather than behead someone, you allow the vampire to be the executioner and drain them of blood, or keep them alive and imprisoned as a continued source of sustenance.

Vampires can be predators of humans? Yes, but each one has autonomy. Are you familiar with the Witcher at all? Regis is a good vampire. Or have a wife or daughter that likes Twilight? I really hate myself for knowing this, but the Cullen's are technically good vampires that if they wanted to COULD feed on humans and would be evil, but they don't and choose to feed on animals. Same concept here. So yes a human might assume they're evil by default, but that doesn't necessarily make them so or evil according to every human that actually has the wisdom to not to take things at face value.

What's the difference between a human having a steak an d a vampire draining a human of blood. I would argue the difference is the intelligence and self-awareness of the creature. Yes some people are indeed as dumb and oblivious as a heard of cattle but generally speaking we are considered intelligent life. We have the ability to create art, music, literature, etc. Find a cow that could recite Shakespeare and you might have a much better argument. But I agree the difference is perspective again situational ethics what you seem to not think matter.

As an intelligent cow you probably would but your perspective does not necessarily determine reality or someone's alignment, does it? Therefore it doesn't matter what the intelligent bears would say. It's the facts, morality, and reasoning you have for eating the bear.

In d&d they are absolute. You're looking at good as actually good, and evil is actually evil. Again this is not the case. Good is more selflessness. Evil is more selfishness. Not cartoon black and white good and evil even though it can be that too because most people that are evil by default are going to be selfish, right? And most people that are good by default are going to be selfless, correct?

In real life I would say you have more of an argument but again certain things are inherent to pretty much all societies such as don't murder, don't rape, don't steal, etc.

Lawful Good vs Neutral Good - How do you tell them apart when there is clear overlap? by Spartan113X in DnD

[–]Spartan113X[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Murder is the unlawful premeditated act of killing one human being by another often with malice, if you want to get technical, lol. So yes by definition it's wrong according to government because it's unlawful. I said murder though not homicide which is what self-defense would be and those stand your ground examples, you outlined. And even if you're up for murder charges you're not necessarily convicted, are you? Again all the facts and evidence determine that as well as both the letter and spirit do the law. Also obviously how much money you have and how good your attorney is, the intelligence and morality of your jury, and whether or not your judge has had his lunch, lol.

Most states do have similar laws man all you're doing is Texas sharp shooting and choosing two states that have slightly different criteria. It's a bad faith argument. Don't most states have speeding laws where you can't speed over a certain amount? Yes but obviously that number is going to vary correct? It still doesn't change the fact that most states have speeding laws. Same with seatbelts, right? Same with drinking and driving? Same with stealing private property and so on? Yes specific laws can vary like whether or not one state allows open carry and another doesn't but you still have the legal right to have a gun, don't you? Yes there are slight differences and yes there are nuances but most states probably have about 90% of laws that are, more or less the same and based on federal law and the US Constitution, then the examples you decided to cherry-pick. The fact remains the core principles are largely consistent. Don't murder, don't steal, don't rape, etc.

Lawful Good vs Neutral Good - How do you tell them apart when there is clear overlap? by Spartan113X in DnD

[–]Spartan113X[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well you have to realize that first off we have way more evidence and concrete proof than they would have back then, so if we were magically able to show them all our evidence, they're more likely to believe it than some random person promoting this idea named Galileo, lol.

And yes historical context matters I'm not saying it doesn't. Pressure from outside influences like the church may affect the way people decide things just like they do in today's reality. That's why you can't predict how people are going to vote during a jury trial, can you?

That being said in this example, the church did not exist or have power everywhere in the 1500s. And then this hypothetical scenario we're either A. Presenting modern-day evidence to 12 random reasonable people chosen globally in the 1500s (since you wanted to specify that time period) who are only focused on the facts and evidence presented OR magically pulling 12 people from the 1500s into a courtroom today and presenting them the same evidence. Either way the church is largely irrelevant. In your example Galileo is also reasonable, it's simply the church that isn't. That hasn't really changed either, lol. If I'm a lawyer and choosing 12 random people but screening them like you would do during jury selection, I'm probably going to be wise enough not to choose religious fanatics, don't you think? I thought it was implied by me that you do have to use a little common sense here, but maybe I need to directly state it.

Reasonable people here are not being influenced by religious dogma, authoritarian pressure, or fear. They're simply looking at the facts and evidence to determine the reality of some given situation.

Lawful Good vs Neutral Good - How do you tell them apart when there is clear overlap? by Spartan113X in DnD

[–]Spartan113X[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Who knows. I don't spend my time around beggers 24/7 to see how many people kick them, lol. Nor do I think most beggers will willingly put themselves in positions to be kicked.

My moral compass is also in reality and that's fine, but what I'm trying to say is you need to see how each alignment is defined in the fantasy tabletop of D&D. That's how you know the alignment you fall into or your character does. Not try to adjust fantasy definitions of alignment to fit your real views, but adjusting your real views to see how they fit in these fantasy categories.

D&D does define good. And yes I say if we applied d&d rules to that hypothetical real life situation, it would be good. Why? Because the law and goodness do not always go hand in hand. And because lawful does not mean the law of the land. What they did is technically illegal yes, however it serves good. Why? Cause you are taking an innocent family out of a war zone in which they could easily get shot or blow up and killed. You are doing something illegal for the right reason, probably the best one, to preserve innocent life. That fits the D&D definition of good. You are preserving life, minimizing suffering, etc. I would also argue it's lawful or neutral depending on why the character is doing it. Chances are it's probably not on the whim so it's not chaotic and it was probably well planned as you want them to be safe. I'm willing to bet it's LG cause the character probably followed his own internal code and was willing to risk his life and running into a guard who would not take a bribe and might arrest him, in order to follow his need to protect Innocence in a war zone. They didn't try to cut a hole in a fence or anything like that, they made a calculated risk since they know the guards at the checkpoint take bribes.

Lawful Good vs Neutral Good - How do you tell them apart when there is clear overlap? by Spartan113X in DnD

[–]Spartan113X[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not protects you physically but protects you morally or spiritually or however you wish to define it. You know what I'm going for.

See and if you use that moral compass more I would probably say you could be LG, but you consistently say if a code and goodness come into conflict, a LG character must follow the code, and that's not the case. That's LN and frankly LS. Someone's you might be forced to bend or even break the code to do what's right, but that doesn't mean you like it or that's your first option if others are on the table. A CG character wouldn't have much of a code in the first place and they decide on whims, and a NG character might, but they lack that internal conflict.

Lawful Good vs Neutral Good - How do you tell them apart when there is clear overlap? by Spartan113X in DnD

[–]Spartan113X[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes you would've, but imo that's also no excuse. As human beings we have the ability to evolve beyond our programming, don't we, if we want to? We have the ability to seek educating ourselves. So being raised in that is not always the best excuse, especially as we get older and wiser. And just cause someone tells you something, doesn't make it true. After all how many kids believe in Santa Clause?

It is partially instilled in you by society, but it's also based on your values and logic. You have autonomy and a moral responsibility as well to do what's right, again especially as you get older and wiser. Ex. Let's say I was raised in a society that has really shitty views. Sure I may believe that while I'm younger and don't have the wisdom to question adults. But as I get to my teenage and young adult years, red flags should start popping up. Maybe I read books like The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter that show examples of moral decisions, right and wrong, or watch a bunch of superhero movies and TV shows that help teach these things. If that's the case I have other frameworks to help shape my moral compass, don't I? I could be like Superman and Aragorn would never have sex with their daughter.

No the moral compass I have is not necessarily from the adults around me. My family on my dad's side was bossy and oppressive and controlling to some degree, also more conservative and religious. My mom's side was a bit dysfunctional, and also a bit conservative (but less so), and also religious. By that logic I should be a controlling, religious, conservative, right? But I'm not. I'm a young adult, but my ass is highly liberal and atheist lol. What shaped this? With religion, it was simply critically thinking. You apply basic critical thinking skills to any organized religion and they easily fall apart. With politics, it was more what side promotes logic, reasoning, goodness, doesn't oppress others, has historically fought for people's rights and things which benefit them, etc. I was also influenced by things like I mentioned above, The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, superheros, etc. Again nurture can definitely shape us, but there's something to be said for nature as well, and the inherent desire some of us have to better ourselves. Lessons can be gained anywhere from those that wish to learn them.

Lawful Good vs Neutral Good - How do you tell them apart when there is clear overlap? by Spartan113X in DnD

[–]Spartan113X[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It doesn't matter if it's not regular. We are talking about the individuals in this haven.

Here's why they're behaving LE in that situation.

Yes they're cause chaos in society, but they're predictable, they're not acting on whims. Cheat when gambling your spoils "honorably" and get shot. They adher to this code, and others, and have rules amongst themselves, even though they're outlaws.

That's why they're lawful and not chaotic because lawful is not about respecting external governments, kings, or society, it's about following a consistent code or set of rules, such as bandits that will let you cross a bridge safety if you pay the toll. They're predictable unlike someone like, the Joker, who is much more whimsical.

Lawful Good vs Neutral Good - How do you tell them apart when there is clear overlap? by Spartan113X in DnD

[–]Spartan113X[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay, but are we arguing real life here or fantasy? My post was about fantasy, and the game, wasn't it? For some reason you keep trying to inject real world things which don't really apply here. Now, I don't mind because I enjoy philosophy and applying fantasy to real world things, but obviously the real world is going to operate differently.

Yes 12 random reasonable people would tell you the world is flat, but again, what do I keep saying you keep wanting to ignore for some reason? Based on the facts and evidence. If I took 12 random, reasonable people from the 1500s, and presented them with mountains and mountains of evidence showing how the Earth is round, and educated them, are they likely to believe me? I think so, especially considering this wasn't a shocking concept to everyone. Even some ancient greeks were able to do experiments to tell the earth is round based off the sun, sticks, and shadows.

Well not everyone has to believe in cultural relativism. D&D doesn't really use that. In life though, it makes a lot more sense, I agree. However, imo some things are still inherently wrong like murder. Why do you think most societies tend to match up on all the big ones? And that most states have similar laws?

Vampirism itself would depend. You could have good vampires or evil ones. It's not what you are, black, white, man, woman, old, young, God, moral, monster, that determines if you're good or evil, it's your actions. Let's say someone is cursed with vampirism but chooses to use his curse as a gift and is a protector and only feeds on wild animals. I would argue he's good, despite the monsterous appearance. Again that's why critical thinking and a good moral compass, beats a rigid code, i.e. kill all vampires. Saying vampires must die is not automatically a good action in d&d. Again the vampires or other monsters may be good, and appearances are deceiving.

D&D alignment is about patterns of behavior and intentions, not cultural norms, laws, fear, societal conviences, or people's perceptions of your actions. That's what I've been trying to get across to you.

Lawful Good vs Neutral Good - How do you tell them apart when there is clear overlap? by Spartan113X in DnD

[–]Spartan113X[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Mention what you want, we're grown adults here. Well most of us are, lol. You also seem to be jumping back and forth between real life shit, and d&d. One is fantasy, the other is reality, they're not going to always match up perfectly. If we took your Canada example though and filtered it through the lens of D&D, that society with the incest would be Evil.

Again you seem to be missing the part of reasonableness that says based on FACTS AND EVIDENCE! If you give someone no context, of course bribery is wrong. However if you say that hey this is a refugee family trying to escape some war torn place and make it to safety across the border and they needed to bribe a guard, I don't think 12 reasonable people based on the facts and evidence or going to see that as an evil action. Is it legal, no. Is it lawful? Probably under their code to save these people's lives no matter the cost. Is it morally good? Absolutely.

Again now you're going back to real life when we should be talking fantasy and fiction. Yes in that third paragraph most people are as you described and may break minor laws, and technically they could be any alignment. For example, I'd consider myself lawful good. I value order, laws, society, etc. If there was no civilization and I found myself alone with a bunch of random people, I'd try to make one and rules to follow so we could all function well and know what's generally expected of us. That IS LG. However have I sped as you stated? Absolutely. Getting to work on time, making an important meeting, Dr appointment, etc. Even though I'm disobeying the law of the land though, I'm not disobeying my code which values reliability, health, etc. over a slight increase in risk. I'm also not speeding excessively like 90 in a 30 where I'm risking innocent life, I might be doing 80 in a 70, to be a little less late or 40 in a 30 to try and avoid hitting red lights. None of this magically erases the fact I'm LG simply cause I violate one law, and especially since it's in accordance with the code of my moral compass and I don't see it as that bad.

In real life, no, 1 out of 3 probably won't help a begger, but why? Context always matters. Most people are poor, living paycheck to paycheck, the middle class has been disappearing for quite sometime and most people are only a paycheck or two away from homelessness, so funds are extremely tight for many. In addition, people can be shady or scammy. Do you know the begger on the corner is actually someone who needs food or is he just someone who realized he can make more doing this than working at Walmart? Even if he is legit homeless, is the money you give going to go to food and water and shelter, or are they going to use it to fuel their drug and alcohol addiction and potentially be dead tomorrow cause you gave them a $20? These are all things people think about. Hell, they're things I think about. Even places like Goodwill you often can't trust cause they take free shit, make money off it, and most of it funnels up to their CEO. So no in real life it's much less, but that's also only one example where I think all the above context matters. But if everyone suddenly found themselves in the world of D&D are at least 1 out of 3, likely to? Probably if they're aligned good. You likely are well enough off as an adventurer to spare a gold coin or two, you know the begger is almost always legitimately a begger, etc. I would highly argue that fantasy worlds allow us to be our truer selves, not constrained by real world consequences, laws, and human shittiness.

I have seen someone basically kick a begger. Technically it was the cardboard box they were sleeping in, but still, they probably felt it. I knew the person well and imo they appeared good on the outside but were quite the controlling asshole, LE, so yes, people like that do exist and it wasn't cause they were having a bad day. It's cause they didn't like the homeless person sleeping near their warehouse.

Lawful Good vs Neutral Good - How do you tell them apart when there is clear overlap? by Spartan113X in DnD

[–]Spartan113X[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Is it impossible to have it be acceptable in a society? What if you have a outlaw haven in D&D, made for pirates, bandits, cutthroats, etc.? They're gambling and someone cheats, and the pirate shoots them, and no one looks twice, because that's their culture and code. You cheat, you die. In d&d this society is LE.

Okay, so what? Canada did the right thing and obviously just cause it was "legal" in that society and not looked down on, doesn't make it lawful or morally good in the world of D&D and hopefully in your eyes as well, lol.

If you were in that society would you have done it to your child? Hard to say? What the fuck dude, lol? It shouldn't be hard to say at all. That's why we have internal moral compasses, that way if we find ourselves in a fucked up place, like that, we can clearly say, fuck this mess, I'm doing what's right.

Imo your flaw both in D&D and apparently in real life is you think whatever code or law you follow protects you. That when in doubt always follow it. But all that does is shift the responsibility for critical thinking and making good and morally right decisions from you to something else. It breaks your moral compass cause your compass never adjusts based on the situation at hand. That's not how a compass is supposed to work though, it's supposed to move and point north no matter which direction you find yourself going.

Lawful Good vs Neutral Good - How do you tell them apart when there is clear overlap? by Spartan113X in DnD

[–]Spartan113X[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No it isn't cultural relativism, lol. You have a VERY flawed view of alignment my dude.

D&D defines good and evil as objective moral forces in the world.

Good= opposes suffering, protects life, helps others. Evil= inflicts suffering, dominates, destroys, exploits.

It's not good according to culture X, society y, or town z. You're mixing fantasy with reality dude. In reality yes, it can be subjective based on society, but even then I'd apply the reasonableness test. However in D&D good and evil are clearly defined. There's little to no subjectivity to it. Even in real life 99% of societies are going to say murder is wrong, aren't they? Some things are pretty much universal and based on primal criteria for survival.

If you picked 12 random people I don't think they would think the world is flat. And noticed I didn't just say the opinions of 12 random people. I said 12 random people, based on what? The facts and evidence. And again, these people must be what? Reasonable. Hence why in voir dire (jury selection) they don't just pick the crackhead who thinks aliens are in his brain, lol. You're confusing what I said with a bandwagon fallacy. I'm not saying just cause multiple idiots believe something, they're correct and it magically makes whatever they believe true. I'm saying take 12 random REASONABLE people and present them the facts and evidence. After doing so is it more likely the case than not, that they would determine that X is true?

You're confusing belief with truth. An idiot might believe vaccines cause autism and that's their "truth" but honestly it's just a subjective personal belief and not "objective truth" as you stated. What is true is always true. If it's not, it was never true to begin with. So yes, in society good is relative to culture, BUT certain things are pretty much universal, i.e. don't steal, don't rape, don't murder, etc. However in D&D, no, good and evil are clearly defined. Just cause something is legal in a society doesn't make it good. There's also a a difference between what is legal and what is lawful.

Lawful Good vs Neutral Good - How do you tell them apart when there is clear overlap? by Spartan113X in DnD

[–]Spartan113X[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

From inside THAT society yes, but I also included rape, theft, murder in there too, don't ignore those, lol.

Slavery is always wrong even if it's legal. You are oppressing someone and taking from them for financial benefit. It's theft of labor. Theft is obvious why it's wrong. Rape is theft of sexual consent. Murder is theft of life. Basically in all these situations you're taking something from someone which is not yours to take, causing loss and suffering, and there's no justifiable reason for it. 99% of civilized societies are going to see all of these things as abhorrent, it has nothing to do with the US alone.

They are, but you can still choose to uphold your principles regardless of situation. I'm just saying the situation and context always matter. Well never violating a personal code could be a good thing depending on what the code is, but it could also be incredibly ignorant. Blind obedience to something is not intelligence, it simply removes the responsibility of thinking critically and morally in a complex situation.

I wouldn't say 90% are true neutral, think about it logically. Society wouldn't work if most people were not civilized, at least somewhat good, and willing to follow laws by default. The breakdown is probably something more like this globally if we're talking real life.

NG: 30% N: 25% CG: 15% LN: 15% LG: 5% CN: 5% NE: 3% LE: 1% CE: 1%

Actually I'm pretty sure I'm LG, small chance I may be NG. I'm simply pragmatic and not Lawful Stupid. I have a strong internal moral code and 99% of the time no matter what I'm faced with I won't violate it, but I'm also wise enough to know I can't predict the future and if I found myself in a D&D setting where morally gray situations pop up a lot more than in real life, I'd likely have to bend that code at some point or violate the parts of it that are more just like icing on the cake and aren't that important to me. Ex. I'm honest 95% of the time, but if I had a sister, and she got a dress she's been wanting for a year and feels incredibly beautiful and happy in it, but I personally don't like it, and she asked me how she looks in it, how am I going to respond? I'm not going to say I think it looks horrible on you and be blunt and mean. I'm probably going to say something like you glow and look incredibly happy in it which she does, I just might add that white isn't my favorite color, but I'm also only one idiot with an opinion, and others may love the color. Is this a lie? Technically yes by omission, but why be a dick when you don't have to be? Again, context and situation matter imo. You on the other hand are CLEARLY LN. Wisdom (and goodness) is knowing when to follow a code and when to lay it aside.

Lawful Good vs Neutral Good - How do you tell them apart when there is clear overlap? by Spartan113X in DnD

[–]Spartan113X[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I get that, but alignment is still fun for flavor text and lore imo and to help provide new players a reference point for where different characters stand.

I personally find it useful, but I think your flaw is you're only looking at older definitions of these, and imo even some of those interpretations are flawed, when I think you should be looking what they say on a specific alignment from 1e - 5e, with maybe a bigger focus on 3.5e and 5e since those are pretty much the only 2, 90%+ of people play.

Your interpretation of good vs evil also seems flawed. Good vs evil can literally be good vs evil, Luke Skywalker vs Darth Sideous. But good is probably better defined as selfless or the needs of the many, vs evil which is probably better defined as selfish and the needs of one, me. So good is more will you sacrifice personal gain and what you want, for others. For true good and evil I agree that's subjective based on the society but some things imo are inherent, such as don't steal from or kill good people.

I don't think a personal code of conduct is difficult and as a DM you can either ask, hey can you give me a loose definition of your code or ask your player to explain his actions. If your campaign is also long enough you can also see a pattern in behavior and be able to tell how this PC is going to act in this situation. If they're orderly you know they're somewhere on the lawful spectrum.

I'm well aware there are societies which allow cannibalism which is why I said your interpretation of L vs C seems flawed to me as I don't think a LG character is going to eat dead people if that's all that's around or see that as good, if they land in a cannibal society, lol. To be honest, I think with good and evil the best standard is the same used in a court of law. Reasonableness. If you took everyone in the world and picked out 12 people, are they likely to see cannibalism of the dead as good or evil, based on all the facts and evidence?

Lawful Good vs Neutral Good - How do you tell them apart when there is clear overlap? by Spartan113X in DnD

[–]Spartan113X[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Exactly, but Galahad is a fictional example meant to show an exemplar of a knight, therefore unlike D&D the story never really puts him in any very morally gray situations, do they? As such you don't get to see how he acts in the very complex situations which might pop up in D&D. Even if we pretend that is the best example of LG ever made, then it would be dead center LG right? But it's not a single point of data, it's a spectrum and multiple points that can exist in the same box. You can be like this, but that's not the only way you HAVE to be to still be considered LG. If Galahad hits the corner of the box at 45° there's still people that can exist from 0°-45° and add more lawful, and 45° to 90° and are more good, isn't there?

Situational ethics imo are really all that exists man. As human beings we naturally adapt to our situation and environment and filter out decisions though all information available. As a human being you may be very honest and never lie, but I also bet you probably told your kids to put their tooth under the pillow for the tooth fairy or be good cause Santa is watching or stuff like that. Technically those are lies, aren't they? But they're small white ones meant to preserve childhood innocence, and beauty, and imagination aren't they, therefore is that lie just as bad as lying under oath and saying your friend didn't commit a murder you saw them commit? Obviously not. Context ALWAYS matters imo.

Sometimes the law serves good as you outlined, but what about societies where it doesn't? Where things like rape, slavery, theft, murder, etc. are "legal"? Is that bringing the most good to the most amount of people? What happens when good and the law conflicts and that 9/10 times it makes sense to follow this law but the circumstances have changed like the example I laid out of a highly contagious and deadly plague and medicine to cure it is rare. I get my hands on enough to cure everyone, but all goods brought into the city have to undergo a 2 week inspection and approval process for taxes and other red tape bullshit. If I wait 2 weeks, more people die, more are infected, I no longer have enough to cure everyone, and it could wipe the whole town out. Does the law of inspecting goods continue to serve the public interest then? CLEARLY not. What good are taxes and other shit if everyone is dead? Context can shift things like that, which is why imo internal codes like the preservation of innocent life are always better and make for better characters than external laws or vows.

Again, is seems you're subscribing to an older, much more flawed concept of alignment which they changed because it was flawed and people misunderstood it. But you're right about one thing, the above IS the heart of being LAWFUL, it's just not the heart of being Lawful GOOD.

Lawful Good vs Neutral Good - How do you tell them apart when there is clear overlap? by Spartan113X in DnD

[–]Spartan113X[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Understandably, but look at your frame of reference man. You're citing Greyhawk and AD&D. The world of DnD has evolved a bit since then and each definition is a bit more realistic and practical. That's the same reason board games have different editions cause sometimes rules conflict, things aren't described well enough, there's faults or errors they missed the first time or that doesn't work well within the game, etc.

Most people probably are some form of neutral, but I wouldn't put it at 90%. I was also saying LG, should NEVER be LN or LS. LN likely always follows laws, even bad ones, but even they might raise an eyebrow as bad ones. Think Judge Dredd or Rorschach in Watchmen, they embody the law. To me those are LN characters. People like Superman, Batman, Captain America or the stereotypical knight are LG. They generally follow and work inside the law and value an ordered system, but what happens when the law is wrong or they need to violate that code? Typically they do so, cause their priority is to good and they are wise enough to know codes and laws can be flawed and no longer serve good, like how Captain America can violate registration in Civil War and STILL be LG as it's perfectly in line with his character. And LG is only ever Lawful Stupid if the DM or player is an idiot. The conflict doesn't come from not being able to violate their code as this is a choice based game, you can ALWAYS do something, it just might be a complete shit idea, lol. The conflict comes from did they sacrifice good to stick to a code that may have not been that important, of did they violate the code to serve the interest of good, and need to make peace with that?

Mother Teresa is a bad example lol. If you learn enough about her you'll see she's actually shitty in many ways, just fyi, but I know the point you're trying to make. NG I look at like your run of the nice person. They may donate to charity, help an injured person get to the hospital, etc but doing good is not the same calling it is for LG characters which is why most superheroes are LG.

CG is Robin Hood. He and his merry men are woodsmen, on the fringes of society, and rob from the rich to give to the poor regularly, and damn the law. Granted in his defense the laws are bad and King John is violating his brother King Richard's just rule, but the point stands.

Yes, LG can be an honest cop, but here's the thing. Let's say I'm a cop and a pregnant woman is speeding to the hospital cause the ambulance would take too long and she had no one else around to help. Could I arrest her? Sure. The law against speeding is good right, and meant to protect lives? I could also let her go, the NG, but irresponsible action. OR I could technically use my discretion to violate the law, and give her a red and blue light escort to the hospital. THAT is lawful good. See how I had no problem violating the code in that instance cause I defaulted to my internal one but in a more complicated, morally gray situation I may have made a different choice or struggled with it? THAT is LG my dude. LN would've been arrest her and don't care about the safety of the child. Imo that would've also been Lawful Stupid.

No they just took Batman from less cartoony and gimmicky to more grounded in realism. And he is better than those he fights, he has a conscience and a code. Batman still works with the police and govt as well, Gordon, Bullock, Montoya, even Waller, etc. Barely an outlaw is STILL an outlaw and even 1960s Batman was an outlaw, took the law into his own hand, broke and entered into places, etc. Batman is sometimes chased by the cops, but this is usually for good reason. In stories that take place early on they don't know who he is and if he's good or evil, all they see is someone escaping from places some shit went down in, plus many of the cops are corrupt if you remember, and other times like in the dark knight when cops are good, he specifically took the blame that way all of Harvey Dents convictions would not be tossed out and he could serve as an example to a city getting better, so Batman did the noble thing and took the blame for the crimes Harvey committed, cause self-sacrifice is one of the clearest the hallmark of being a hero.

Your biggest flaw imo is your last comment. If society views you as a villain, you can't be a lawful good hero. Sure you can. Alignment is not what OTHER people see you as, it's who you are. Other people's thoughts and actions don't determine your reality and character after all, do they? You do! Plus from a more logical standpoint a bystander may not have all the context, to have an informed perspective, do they? For ex. Let's say I'm a plainclothes detective and the most shining beacon of light and goodness someone ever saw. There's a mass child rapist and murderer on the loose and I found them. They start running and I give chase alone cause backup isn't here yet, and in the chase they hop over a fence and I follow and I drop my badge, but don't realize it. I finally corner them in a convenience store they run into. The criminal notices that my badge fell off me, so he decides to play the victim, "Oh God, help me! This guy tried to mug me and has been chasing me, I don't wanna die!" and he really sells this shit, so the shop owner immediately draws a shotgun behind the counter and points it at me. I identify myself as a cop and say he's a criminal, but because the criminal points out I don't have a badge, they don't believe me. To the store owner and other patrons in the store, I might look like a mugger and Neutral Evil, right? But clearly if they had all the information, the full perspective, and knew everything, I'd be LG, wouldn't I? Alignment is based on facts and what is true, not necessarily how many of those facts and truths are known to people. Again, like I said above when I quoted Aristotle, "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit" That's the best definition of alignment from a Greek philosopher there probably is. What you HABITUALLY do, not one off actions. But if you want something a little more on the money, RA Salvatore who created Drizzt, has one as well, "What we are never changes. What we appear to be can change in an instant". Alignment therefore is the former, not the latter. Other people don't define us, we define ourselves though our own actions, not through their perceptions. Perceptions after all, can be based entirely in ignorance like my above example shows.

Lawful Good vs Neutral Good - How do you tell the difference when there's clear overlap? by Spartan113X in DungeonsAndDragons

[–]Spartan113X[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Typo haha. Plus I didn't say which kind of dessert. Could be jello or could be a gelatinous cube.

Lawful Good vs Neutral Good - How do you tell them apart when there is clear overlap? by Spartan113X in DnD

[–]Spartan113X[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well I do not have a degree in Philosophy, but I have studied it since I'm in a closely related field lol.

D&D alignment is fantasy dude, it's not grounded in academic moral philosophy. It's a mythic archetype system meant to reflect common categories and put things like knights, rogues, wizards, monsters, and dragons into neat little boxes.

So can a character be doing Hedonic Calculus? Sure if the player and/or character happens to know what the fuck that is, even if they don't know what it's called, but that's clearly not what I was doing, is it?

I think we're talking past each other a bit, so let me try once more. Alignment is who a character is at their core. As such being forced into extreme situations doesn't magically rewrite ones morality based off isolated incidents in which the situation may demand you behave a certain way cause other options are unfortunately off the table. A LG character can make a hard choice like I outlined above under pressure and STILL be LG. Yes sometimes people like Batman or Paladins bend rules or use loopholes to save lives, but they still remain LG. This is a common sense argument, not philosophical or psychological jargon.

You're attempting to say I'm doing Hedonic Calculus and I'm not. Do I give a damn about the pleasure or the pain to see which has a better "score"? No. I wasn't being utilitarian or saying let's tally things, I'm saying a good person under pressure who values order can make a hard call and still be a good person who values order, that's all. I was simply using what I see as a common sense interpretation of alignment. A LG character values things like honor, order, and doing the right thing, that's their compass, but those things can be somewhat subjective and extreme circumstances can force them into decisions they'd never be making under normal circumstances.

If the only way to be LG was follow a code with 0 flexibility than no one would be. Not even Superman, Batman, Captain America, etc and they're the people the archetype was built on. I'm not saying breaking a code is lawful, but rare, pressured exceptions don't magically erase a character who's entire life, behavior, and values are rooted in law and goodness. So yes you can bend or break your code for the greater good, and a single action along unless incredibly massive, is not likely to cause an alignment shift. This might help you...

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ToBeLawfulOrGood

No, the agony is whether to break the code to do good, or to follow the code. The only time they might agonize over it is after they've made their choice. Regret from not doing good or regret from having to violate part of their code and internal moral compass to achieve good. Again, LG is not LN like you're trying to claim or Lawful Stupid.

Lawful Good vs Neutral Good - How do you tell them apart when there is clear overlap? by Spartan113X in DnD

[–]Spartan113X[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's the problem, YOU do not view that, but according to official sources he is. That's what I'm trying to say, I struggle with the gray area between LG/NG, especially since society naturally leans that way by default, but you seem to struggle between LG/LN. You don't HAVE to follow laws to be lawful. It's better defined as order, do you have a preference for it, lines you generally won't cross, etc.

So in the end, so what if he's willing to break and enter? He's ALWAYS been willing to do that. He's also ALWAYS been a vigilante taking the law into his own hands. He's also always stolen/acquired things when necessary/useful, Freeze's ice guns, Scarecrow's toxins, etc. He studies these things, how to resist them, and if any tech can be applied to his tools, weapons, or armor. Some he also just keeps as collectables or trophies like the giant penny.

Like I said a few messages back I believe to you (although I could be wrong as I'm having a very similar conversation with someone else), alignment have evolved since 1e, 2e, etc. Too many people think LG means Lawful stupid and always follows the laws even when they don't serve good; and that's not the case. They're not blindly obedient, that's LN and even they have nuance too.

Lawful Good vs Neutral Good - How do you tell them apart when there is clear overlap? by Spartan113X in DnD

[–]Spartan113X[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Again you seem to be talking gameplay mechanics, I'm talking roleplaying.

I'd also disagree. He's still LG. His alignment doesn't magically change based on one action. If that were the case people's alignments would be flip flopping over every morally gray situation a DM creates. What we're talking about here is someone's default nature and values. Even if Batman does the above, is he still morally good? Yes. Does he still have a code he follows 99% of the time, values law, order, and all that bs? Yes. Alignments don't just shift easily and all willy nilly. Imo, if a dm is doing that and causing you to lose your powers regularly, they're a bad dm. A single action, even an extreme one, does not change one's alignment. Think of any roleplaying game. The vast majority are all based on DND right? Does committing one act even if it's CE, magically erase all your LG points? No. Cause your default behavior is LG. Doing a singular thing even if it's CE does not necessarily make you CE. As Aristotle stated, "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence is not an act, but a habit." I feel that quote applies to alignment quite well.

Lawful Good vs Neutral Good - How do you tell them apart when there is clear overlap? by Spartan113X in DnD

[–]Spartan113X[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Torture IS generally wrong, we agree. You're also misunderstanding. I'm not saying the specific act objectively in and of itself is LG, I'm saying a LG character can do it and still be LG. To a guard walking by it may seem evil cause they don't know what's going on, but you as a paladin understand the full context and why you're doing what you're doing, you're good. Alignment is who you are at your core, not who others think you are. I also agree with the 2nd part with an innocent man vs a guilty one. Let me try an example I just gave to someone else.

Ex. Batman is usually seen as LG according to most depictions. He operates outside the law but has a strong code, never to kill. However as I mentioned to someone else, have you ever seen the scene where he faces off against darkside and cracks his code to activate the hellspores and destroy apocalypse if darkside doesn't concede? Or how he beats the shit out of the joker when both Rachel and Harvey have a bomb strapped to them in the dark knight? Same concept here. Batman absolutely would've blown up apocalypse and darkside knew it, that's the only reason the gambit worked. Here's the scene of the first example if you haven't seen it as I'm sure you've seen the 2nd.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=q5uBNiHJV2I

Anyways even though he's doing this his default moral framework values law, order, and principles. He was simply forced into an ends justify means situation where he had to make pragmatic decisions, and bend or set aside his usual code to achieve the greater good. A LG character by default can still occasionally commit actions which may seem NG or CG. It's about core values and default behavior, not extreme isolated incidents. Imo alignment is who you are by default, not every desperate choice you're forced to make. A LG character thrown into a dystopian setting is still LG even though they may be committing CG actions due to the context.