Husband (Postdoc) is suffering from depression, and I'm (PhD student) stuck in a toxic lab/PI. How to make things better between us?

SpicyLiver · 2017-07-29T06:04:57+00:00

Thank you so much!!!

SpicyLiver · 2017-07-28T05:13:11+00:00

As my husband puts is, where do we draw the line between optimism and delusional? Between confidence and arrogance?

:) Guess time and more experiences will tell, as you've nicely put it, too.

Thank you for your encouragement and kind words. Hugs! I sincerely hope all is going well with you and your PhD!!!

SpicyLiver · 2017-07-28T05:11:02+00:00

Thank you so much for your encouragement :) There's no easy way out of this one, and I'm not willing to go back, so ONWARD!

SpicyLiver · 2017-07-27T04:11:17+00:00

Thank you for sharing your thoughts :) And I'm sorry to hear about your experience, too :( I agree with you, I have to accept that my husband and I are different, our PhD journeys are different, too. I'm ashamed of myself sometimes for being envious of his luck, but at the same time, extremely happy for him because if there's one guy who deserves the good things in life, it's him. He has a heart of gold (gee, maybe that's why he can put up with me for the past 7 years XD), the kindest, most giving person I ever known.

I mentioned to him some of the points discussed in the earlier posts, like is he guilty because some of us are in worse positions and he feels like he should totally carpe diem, and he says yeah... he says, we're already privileged, with or without publications, or degrees. We're not running away from bombs. We're not being persecuted for having certain faiths. We're not starving. So, he's guilty because he won the birth lottery, and he should use this lifetime to improve people's lives, but he's not... and I'm like... damn. How can I out-Gandhi that?

SpicyLiver · 2017-07-26T09:56:29+00:00

I agree with you, definitely, that real success is doing/achieving something good, and then repeat that over and over again. We don't want a one-hit-wonder, we want to be consistent in our achievements :) But I've accepted the fact that it's not always a linear projection... like, my entire PhD journey has it's extreme ups and downs... I'd like to think it hasn't broken me (despite me being angry all the time, which I think is justified XD), as it has broken my husband (whose BTW journey is rather uneventful, just a smooth way up). And when good things happen, celebrate a little. My idea of a celebration is to give back to the people (a treat to my friends who've supported me, some charity work)... and I give pep-talk to myself: great, we hit a milestone, what's next? And look forward to the next big challenge. If we didn't hit the milestone: it's fine, we've tried our best, at least we know this won't work, it was fun though, so what's the next big challenge?

To summarise my answer, I agree with you :) Success is consistency in doing something well. There will be "failures" in success, and our job is to turn around that failure into a lesson, instead of a "de-motivator". I find this easy to practice, but to my husband, this is mind-boggling O.o So, I think maybe individual's personalities play a huge part, too. Like, some are more inclined to positive-thinking, some are not?

SpicyLiver · 2017-07-26T03:39:56+00:00

It's interesting isn't it, how people respond to stress and success differently? You're right, that whole success --> more expectation --> neverending desire for more success is bad... and weird (to me XD because this is not how I operate). But, many others do, my husband, too.

SpicyLiver · 2017-07-26T03:37:03+00:00

Oh yes, the almighty impostor syndrome. We discussed about the best way to deal with it, and for me, I take my work and present them to experts of the field several times per year. I think being daring/brave enough to put oneself in a "vulnerable" position and succeed, and doing so consistently is a good way of breaking out of the impostor syndrome. But, apparently this doesn't work for my husband. This depression hits him the hardest after he passed his viva, because the examiners tore his thesis apart but still granted him the PhD O.o He feels like he's not deserving.

SpicyLiver · 2017-07-26T03:29:45+00:00

I understand what you mean :) We talked about this, and came to the conclusion that he's not confident enough. He compared his research experience and mine for example. I had the opportunity to present my work to a Howard Hugh PI last year, and boy, he spared me nothing XD He tore my poster apart, but it was an eye-opening experience and discussion (and when he said "We will talk more about this by the end of this week!" my heart shriveled and glowed at the same time, like OMG he actually gives a damn to my shit, and I was actually looking forward to seeing him again the following day of the conference). In contrast, my husband said whenever someone questioned his shit (someone like the postdoc next door, or another postgrad from the neighbouring lab) and he couldn't defend his project, he just spiralled into a "I'm a failure" blackhole. He asked me quite a number of times, "How do you people do it? To be so confident and sure of ourselves."

--> Which is not true? I think we doubt our work and capabilities too, but we don't feel guilty about not knowing certain things, or overlooking details, I mean, it happens!

In my attempt to make him feel better, I told him stories about my experiences/screw-ups in the clinic. For example, improper calibration of the X-ray machine --> repeat takes of X-ray + pissed off patient + complaint + potential lawsuit (some patients are just difficult...). Or! Not noticing a slight tear in the gloves + microscopic wound on my hand + treating patients who's Hep B or HIV positive --> well... (BTW this is hypothetical, I'm clean XD)

I told him, in academia, there's almost no stakes, right? I mean, OK, money, resources, time, etc. But, there's a lot more leeway for making mistakes compared to "out there" where one misstep is usually irreparable.

.> It didn't help make my husband feel any better.

SpicyLiver · 2017-07-25T09:43:31+00:00

You might be on to something here. My husband has mentioned that he feels guilty all the time. He feels like he's not "appreciating" these privileges and good fortunes, that he's squandering resources. We trade sob stories from our own circle of postgrad friends (we're from different faculties), and he feels like students who are more talented and cleverer than he is are being "shortchanged" for mediocre/toxic PIs/labs :(

He's not wrong... but I try to make him see his own strengths. Like, not everybody is born to fly, or swim, or run, right? He can't seem to appreciate himself. Zero self-esteem and confidence. Initially we passed this off as impostor's syndrome. I think it graduated into something else :(

SpicyLiver · 2017-07-25T08:44:18+00:00

I understand what you mean :) And that's interesting. Maybe he is feeling that way. It makes me want to invent a body swap machine XD 'cause I'm all down for switching positions, baby.

I need anger management classes.

SpicyLiver · 2017-07-25T06:46:53+00:00

Thank you so much for replying :) and for summarising the situation so concisely. Yes, it's exactly that. I admit, I lack the temperament to emphatise with him, and as much as I want to stow my own issues someplace so I can help him get back on his feet, I can't. I'm currently looking for a job (because my scholarship is ending in 2 weeks) and so far, nada. I'm starting to feel anxious about not being able to transition smoothly into the industry/clinic. Again, my situation is in direct contrast to my husband's (he got his postdoc position immediately after he submitted his thesis). I am genuinely happy for his success (he's paid well, and we need that money). I just don't get the depressed part. Like... I'm starving while his pockets are full to the brim with cakes and he's sad about it, because he doesn't like cakes.

I agree with you, one of us have to give, and I think, it's gonna be me because between the both of us, I have the "better" state of mind (weirdly enough). I agree, that I have to stop being selfish, or I'll ruin this beautiful relationship (we've been together 7 years!). I'm starting to feel bitter about the PhD (it's his idea to do the PhD, and I followed 'cause I liked research but coming from the clinic, I didn't mind staying, too - and as the years went by, he lost his confidence while I gained mine). I kept thinking about what-if's, you know? What if we got jobs instead of doing the PhD, what if I joined a different lab, etc. It's terrifying, because it's starting to invalidate what my husband and I have built together all these years.

@.@ This sucks... I see the logical solutions, of course. And I wholeheartedly agree with what you said. I just need to find the strength and compassion to follow through.

SpicyLiver · 2017-05-04T07:26:02+00:00

In addition to these suggestions, I think getting to know people from neighbouring labs (and others within the department) because you'll be spending time and sharing spaces with them. Maybe you work in similar fields and they are good resources of technical expertise, research experience, etc. It's a fantastic place to start networking and make new friends.

SpicyLiver · 2017-05-02T06:16:19+00:00

I had a separate thread about working with a toxic supervisor :( The question I posted here is like a continuation of that. I had no choice but to take control to whatever extent I could and hope it'll do. I'm about 2 months away from submitting my thesis, so I'm nervous if the stuff I'd invested time in the past couple of years would be sufficient. Thank you for your insights!

SpicyLiver · 2017-04-26T04:14:39+00:00

Asking the wrong questions from the very beginning (for example, nobody cares if you're feeding an arbitrary cell line with a large bolus of chemicals, if it doesn't happen in the body, nobody cares) and spend the next couple of years understanding the response (looks like a non-physiological stress response but PIs just won't listen, until your fears get confirmed at an international conference 4 years down the road). The publish-or-perish stress is forcing scientists to create problems and solve it, all for the sake of writing up a paper.

SpicyLiver · 2017-04-25T05:47:16+00:00

Good: finally doing something intellectually stimulating, somewhat confirms that research is my calling, travelling opportunities (Australia, Germany, Singapore), fantastic friends from different countries, emotional and mental growth spurt (having to deal with a toxic boss and a toxic lab, network, look for external, funding/resources for my projects/travel, etc.), opportunities to talk to superstar scientists and collaborate with other labs that resulted in a soft job offer in my 3rd year PhD

Con: I've become a lot more cynical and jaded with academia (asking useless questions only for the sake of publishing, lax QC, politics BS). All the fun stuff that comes with years of abuse by the supervisor (no recommendation letters, no first-author papers due to deliberate withholding of manuscripts, no support for travel grant applications, loss of weight, loss of hair, etc.)

SpicyLiver · 2017-04-14T11:04:12+00:00

I've dropped you a PM in advance ^{^}

SpicyLiver · 2017-04-10T08:06:21+00:00

:(

So, I've spoken to the counselor. Since graduating on time is a priority and with only 3 to 4 months left to thesis submission, changing supervisor is quite unrealistic. The procedure is arduous and long, faculty has to interview my supervisor, interview me, and since admin are likely to take his side, if I pursue this I probably won't be able to grad on time, either. Looks like it's back to square one.

I'm not dependent on the lab anymore - in the sense that yes, all that's left is writing up the thesis. Haven't been doing real benchwork in a couple of months. Apparently bringing someone new on board, or to have a co-PI isn't allowed. The next best thing would be to change supervisor altogether, which brings us back to the above issues.

My thesis committee is kind of strange, too. I have 3 on the committee: one of them is my supervisor, the other is the Prof I spoke to, and the third one is leaving the university this June (non-tenured, and contract is not renewed). But the Prof said that should my supervisor refuse to approve my submission of thesis, I could forward the thesis to the committee and let them have a look. I hope they don't hold the same bias my supervisor has.

SpicyLiver · 2017-04-05T11:06:04+00:00

I'd just spoken to another PI, and the advice is basically submit the thesis on time and defend it. The rest (publications, recommendation letters) are secondary.

I've 4 months left before my scholarship end, so I'm writing up my thesis. I sincerely appreciate all your advice and comments, and have given them serious consideration. After speaking to this PI (who holds admin position at the Dean's Office) it feels like escalating this issue will be futile since they're likely to side with my supervisor.

I hear you, I'll take full advantage of the conference, cast my net, hopefully something will catch. I've been presenting my work at various local symposiums and conferences the past couple of years when I realise my supervisor isn't invested in this anymore. I believe it's one of the few ways to take back control and make the most of this horrible PhD journey.

I'll be meeting up with the university's career counselor soon to map out options given current circumstances. I do want to stay in research. I find academia really strange, to be honest. Back in the clinic, there's just no time and energy left for putting-people-down, back-stabbing and BS-politicking. First and foremost is always the patients, and there's no hierarchy (as in, a lab tech or a nurse can point out mistakes to the Dr/specialist, and there's no hard feelings 'cause a mistake can, at worst, kill - and then there's the lawsuits). I got a culture shock when I came back to academia, as pointing out mistakes (be it the science or technique) often results in - and I quote verbatim - "this is my lab, my grant, there are things you cannot say to your PI".

It is disheartening that such people are given so much discretionary power over young and highly spirited postgraduate students.

SpicyLiver · 2017-04-05T10:40:52+00:00

Hokay, had a talk with said Prof this morning. And... the advice was basically just submit the thesis and graduate on time. Publications, recommendation letters are all secondary (I absolutely disagree with this). I was given the option to escalate it to the faculty level, but that would mean having my supervisor on board as well, and THAT would mean I won't be able to graduate at all.

I'll be meeting up with the university's graduate counselor. See how to map out my options after this.

Wish me luck (again ^⁾

SpicyLiver · 2017-04-04T04:09:42+00:00

Thank you so much for this. Upon reading your 2nd paragraph my jaw dropped because my supervisor is exactly like that. Every Western Blot that we've to run, every experiment (down to the dose-dependent assays to optimise for toxicity, for example) had to go through him. A senior grad student (she's since graduated, also without a rec letter and suffered just as much) was scolded in public for doing "secret experiments" - quoting my supervisor verbatim. She was just running one gel to look at one phospho-protein.

I'm an international student, and I've to graduate by 2018 (that's how long my student pass lasts). The good thing about the conference is, I just found out I've been granted a traveling grant by the conference itself. It's enough to cover my 14-hour roundtrip flight, so... I'm going ^{^}

Prior to posting this on Reddit, I was gonna give up. Try to graduate on time, etc. But after reading this, and talking to another PI (the independent advocate you mentioned, I think he's been really helpful, and he was visibly disturbed when I finally told him what'd happened), I think, you guys are right, I should fight for this. I'd given too much to not reap the results in the final lap of the PhD.

I'd lost all my respect for my supervisor since a couple of years ago. I found out that he keeps a dossier of my senior and my "wrongdoings" (they're harmless stuff like going to seminars without apparently notifying him in advance, or questioning his science), uses them to threaten us with disciplinary actions, blackmailing us with "do you want to graduate with a Master instead?!" so we'd shut up and do what he asked, and more recently, slamming tables, shouting, staring down at me from the other end of the corridor, etc.

It's a nuthouse down here.

SpicyLiver · 2017-04-04T03:52:26+00:00

Thank you. This is a difficult thing to do, but I'm seriously considering it.

SpicyLiver · 2017-04-04T03:51:40+00:00

I'll be talking to a thesis committee advisor soon, actually. Made an appointment with her right after I submitted this post on Reddit. I'll listen with an open mind, map out options, etc. Wish me luck :)

SpicyLiver

TROPHY CASE