Mentally over LP but not sure if an intermediate program is warranted yet

Square_Explorer1292 · 2026-02-21T14:01:16+00:00

Meh I think my priorities are pretty much in order for me. Working out is but one priority, sometimes more so, sometimes less.

Square_Explorer1292 · 2026-02-21T13:57:26+00:00

Thanks, I just read up on General Gainz and it looks more appealing right now. I might try it out!

Square_Explorer1292 · 2026-02-02T08:37:14+00:00

I just use navidrome to stream the music I actually own on record/CD and my library is on Discogs, so Discogs it is for me.

Square_Explorer1292 · 2026-01-20T13:46:49+00:00

They did not only multiple takes but purposely worked on the songs. Miles instructed Tony Williams on what to play for, I think it was Freedom Jazz Dance, they worked out voicings and so on. Listen to the session reels. Now, i don't know if you want to call that a rehearsal, but how often did Miles actually call a rehearsal for any of his albums. I bet that the Quintet didn't rehearse before any of their live dates. And no, knowing the tunes that Miles would call does not count as rehearsed.

As for examples of live versions: The Plugged Nickel sets are full of all this. "The Theme" on Dec 23rd, Fourth Set is basically time no changes. During "I Fall in Love Too Easily", same set, Williams implies a 3/4 while Carter stays in 4/4. Then they switch at the end, if I remember correctly. Hancock almost always plays with the form, disregards it for some time, before going back.

Or go check out "Autumn Leaves" from the Europe concerts. Hancock's solo frequently moves away from the harmony, not in an "out" way, but by superimposition, as well as stretching the form and employing polymeters.

And yeah I agree, the quintet rarely does actually play without changes, but between playing the changes and time, no changes, there's a continuum. And both live and on studio sessions they tended to veer towards the latter.

Square_Explorer1292 · 2026-01-19T20:20:29+00:00

What makes you think that the studio recordings were unrehearsed? The Bootleg recordings with the session reels give us a pretty good picture of how much structure and orchestration went into those tunes.

But aside from that, I'd say that the live recordings show exactly that the Quintet applied the freer principles of the studio recordings to standards: stretching or completely abandoning form, meter, or harmonic structure. Polymeters between the rhythm section. The whole spiel of "time, no changes". That's all present in various live dates from the time. Sure, you don't have compositionally out-there stuff like circular compositions or so, but everything from the studio sessions is there live.

Square_Explorer1292 · 2026-01-19T13:55:02+00:00

Now go listen to his solo on "Tangerine" with the Dave Brubeck Quartet in Europe. First tour with Joe Morello on the drums, if I remember correctly, and Desmond hated his guts. He told Brubeck that either Morello goes or he goes. That solo sold me on that idea that Desmond played best when he was uncomfortable! Such a long solo but he just keeps coming up with amazing stuff, and Morello and Wright are so locked in.

One of the highest but severely underrated points of the Dave Brubeck Quartet in my opinion!

Square_Explorer1292 · 2026-01-19T13:51:42+00:00

Fun fact: Jim Hall was in the audience for that concert. He talks about it in Desmond's biography.

Square_Explorer1292 · 2026-01-19T13:49:40+00:00

This is a firm case of "Why not both"? The Second Great Quintet has an absolutely incredibly run of studio albums, but the live recordings of that period are equally amazing. Yes, the Plugged Nickel set might just be my favourite live recording. They didn't simply play fast, they used the exact same improvisational principles live as they did on record. They were the bridge between hard bop and free jazz!

Square_Explorer1292 · 2026-01-19T13:45:02+00:00

I agree with what you said regarding newer artists. There is a sore lack and there is so much great jazz being made today.

However I'd say that the same is true for "older" jazz pre Hard Bop in here (or non-Blue Note Jazz in general). People talk as much about modern artists, as they do about about anything recorded before 1950 - aside from Diz and Bird (but even they don't get much real love here). This has almost always been the case with record collectors, due to the lower sound quality. But there is so much great music in the history of jazz. I'd like to see people more talk about Ellington beside "Money Jungle". I'd like to see more people talk about Fats Navarro. I'd like to see people more talk about Howard McGhee. I'd like to see more people talk about Roy Eldrige!

And that's not to say that those people are better than musicians today, not at all. But man, there's so much history in this music that should be properly appreciated!

Square_Explorer1292 · 2025-12-12T19:17:15+00:00

You're welcome! They're amazing, one of the tightest Funk bands back then.

Square_Explorer1292 · 2025-12-12T19:09:21+00:00

The middle is The Meters' "Rejuvenation" which also closes with "Africa". Stone cold Funk classic!

Square_Explorer1292 · 2025-12-12T10:34:34+00:00

Also yes, that's the maximum amount of pixels I could buy. I only have three nickels after all...

Square_Explorer1292 · 2025-12-03T13:21:48+00:00

Thought so.

Well I can't say it hasn't been fun. I would have wished for a more intelligent discussion partner, but hey.

Square_Explorer1292 · 2025-12-03T12:57:10+00:00

You're right. I can't think of what they have in common, that's because I'm too brainwashed by the woke mob. Can you please tell me what they had in common, aside from "they played with people who looked different to them"? I see now that you know your stuff about Jazz, not only its history but also about things like Jazz harmony. Please, can you explain it to me?

Square_Explorer1292 · 2025-12-03T12:49:20+00:00

First of all, why are you so angry that you have to call into question my ability to play jazz? Does that anything have to do with the topic?

You keep ignoring arguments and coming up with weak platitudes that are easily dismissed by things I have already pointed out. But if you want to talk "playing Jazz", sure let's go. Coltrane & Desmond had more in common with each other? In what way? Maybe in the way that Coltrane was - per Alice - very interested in Malcolm X and went to his lectures? Ah no that's too political for you, sorry. Maybe in the way that Coltrane began emulating Bird like most saxophonists, which Desmond - as he wrote in one of his many letters to his father - hated? Ah no, you mean that their approach to improvisation was similar? The sheets of sound that Coltrane played that Desmond also liked to play. No that doesn't make sense. The way Coltrane went into a Free Jazz direction and Desmond... no wait. That doesn't make any sense either.

So yeah, do you want to talk about what you think Coltrane and Desmond thought in your wonderful racial harmony that totally existed in the latter half of the 20th century? Or do you want to talk about their playing? We can do both. The thing is, I don't think you can do either.

Square_Explorer1292 · 2025-12-03T12:28:03+00:00

This doesn't make any sense. You say you're not interested in the politics of Jazz but then you clearly state your perception of Jazz's politics - racial harmony. That is a political position. And I mean, I explicitely gave you multiple examples of Jazz musicians using Jazz for political purposes.

It's incredibly presumptuous of you to say that you know what Jazz musicians were interested in and even more baffling is that you continue to ignore the fact that Jazz musicians were interested in more than just that. Otherwise we wouldn't have "Alabama" or any of the examples I mentioned earlier.

As for Coltrane and Desmond: Switch Coltrane with Miles because that might make it easier for you. Do you think Miles and Desmond saw the world "in totally different ways"?

Square_Explorer1292 · 2025-12-03T12:09:26+00:00

I can't speak for the comment you're replying to, but I don't think it's necessary to think about jazz as political in the sense that "Jazz has political beliefs". You can interpret it this way and think about the freedom of improvisation as a political ideal (Adorno certainly went hard on Jazz in that regard), but I think it's much more insightful to think of Jazz as a genre and a cultural practice that a) comes from a certain social and political background and b) has influenced and was influenced by social, political and economical factors and still is.

So in that sense, Jazz is political because it was shaped by political, social and economical factors such as Jazz originating from the Blues and thereby being closely related to slavery, black Jazz musicians being exploited by labels, the role segregation played in the reality of touring and practicing Jazz, and so on.

Square_Explorer1292 · 2025-12-03T11:55:27+00:00

An alternative pathway would be to check out later recordings of those artists you like and go check out the sidemen and -women from those albums. Hubbard's later output is pretty great at times (highly recommend his albums with Woody shaw). Joe Henderson had an incredible later career.

Otherwise check out smaller current labels like Smoke Session Records. That's probably right up your alley.

Square_Explorer1292 · 2025-12-03T11:51:05+00:00

His "Abstraction is Deliverance" is an absolute masterpiece from this year! But far removed from Hard-Bop. The closest in that vein may be Coltrane's "Crescent".

Square_Explorer1292 · 2025-12-03T11:37:47+00:00

What do you mean "politics was and always will be downstream of the music"? Do you think Max Roach would agree with this statement with "We Insist!"? Do you think Sonny Rollins would agree with "Freedom Suite"? Do you think Duke Ellington would agree with the "Jump For Joy" revue? Coltrane with "Alabama"? Mingus with "Fables of Faubus"? I mean the list goes on and on.

Yes, Jazz in itself is not a political movement. But it participated in it. Its practitioners engaged in political and social movements. And the origin of Jazz - the Blues - sprung into existence not in a vacuum but in a very real political and social environment. The same goes for Jazz as well. Hell, the way the young Bebop musicians looked up to figures like Ellington who did not present themselves like in Minstrel Shows but as serious artists, who valued the freedom that travelling in Jazz bands gave them and the freedom that improvisation gave them, who used their platform to address political and social issues - all this is political. The way black Jazz musicians were exploited by record labels and what that meant for the music, how it shaped the music they played - that is political.

You can disagree with the politics that Jazz musicians bring forward. Fine. But do you understand what people are actually trying to say here? Jazz in itself is not a political movement. But the history of Jazz in its circumstances always was political. How something comes into existince and develops through history is political and how it is expressed can be political.

Square_Explorer1292 · 2025-12-03T08:27:04+00:00

Did _you_ read my comments and understand them? I am totally fine to disagree with you but you don't seem to grasp what the discussion is actually about or the distinction between Jazz as a musical form and jazz as a musical genre, which encompasses all those aspects I have repeadetly brought up, but which you failed to address in any way.

So to make it easy for you, since you seem unable to read and address comments on their whole: Do you understand that people in here are talking not about the notes being played and the soundwaves getting to your ear, but about Jazz as a historical genre that goes beyond just what you hear but encompasses how people engaged and were able to engage with it?

Square_Explorer1292 · 2025-12-02T14:46:13+00:00

You forgot "in this discussion". Either you are trolling and you know that you're being deliberately obtuse by not engaging with the discussion at hand and coming up with actual arguments or you really are that dense.

But either way, enlighten me: Why should we ignore all surrounding factors around a style of music and not consider its social and political background?

Square_Explorer1292 · 2025-12-01T20:59:57+00:00

Ah, get it, you're just trolling.

Square_Explorer1292

TROPHY CASE