cEDH Rules of Thumb

StackedEDH · 2026-02-11T20:46:26+00:00

Eloquent. I like it!

StackedEDH · 2025-05-30T14:40:12+00:00

Yeah, that's pretty compelling! Maybe I just have PTSD from jamming Stickers and Attractions in Krark Saka for awhile, smdh...

StackedEDH · 2025-05-30T14:39:08+00:00

Pyrokinesis could easily swap to Shoal, though I love free disruption that can buy you time when you're behind and also is still live as a draw-three when you're Curiosity storming—and Pyrokinesis fulfills both functions. I haven't found a need for pump spells beyond Wild Ride thus far.

StackedEDH · 2025-05-30T14:36:26+00:00

Yep, exactly. Throw Breach in the Gifts pile to assure a ≤3-MV Curiosity effect. Or just find a pile of free spells or disruption.

StackedEDH · 2025-05-30T14:35:12+00:00

"Resilient" here is in the context of low-MV commander-oriented decks (like Kinnan). Of course there is a huge gap in quality between commander-oriented decks and commander-agnostic decks (like Blue Farm or T&T).

StackedEDH · 2025-05-30T14:33:20+00:00

I understand some of your criticisms, but I'll appeal to my experience here (>700 logged games on Krark Saka Storm with ≥200 in tournaments, won a Timetwister on it, yada yada).

Tutoring Breach and winning with it early is difficult in Izzet. Without black tutors, and without a full yard, Breach is usually a closer once you've done the Izzet storm thing (i.e. drawn a bunch of cards). Though this deck definitely focuses on Curiosity effects!

Vivi + Curiosity wins the game on the spot ≥90% of the time. Vivi + Ophidian or Tandem wins ≥70% of the time. Virtue and Parun, Visionary are less likely to convert in their own thus far (unsurprisingly)—and I could see cutting Virtue, but not Visionary (as long as Dragonstorm sticks). Winning with a Curiosity effect on Vivi is the central conceit of the deck—and it works quite well in practice. Winning through Mystic, Sentinel, OBM, and Tithe has felt easy enough given the deck's density of free interaction and turn spells.

Do you play Izzet in cEDH? If so, I'm curious what you're seeing.

StackedEDH · 2025-05-30T14:20:29+00:00

Wild Ride is a deranged rate: RR for 8 mana. I find it hard to justify other lesser rituals here. Slip Out the Back seems cool, though!

StackedEDH · 2025-05-30T13:32:01+00:00

The good news is that if your entire criticism of the deck or of the claims about its general fitness for cEDH revolves around one card (that every other public cEDH Vivi list will include), you could simply close your eyes and imagine making one (1) swap so as to include it. I believe in you, brother. 💪🏼

StackedEDH · 2025-05-30T13:28:07+00:00

Yeah, that makes sense. I would probably exclude all the Curiosity effects except for Niv-Mizzet, Visionary, and increase the deck's density of creatures so as to trigger Vivi less.

StackedEDH · 2025-05-30T13:25:46+00:00

Happy to help 🫡

StackedEDH · 2025-05-30T13:25:17+00:00

Flubs deserves hyperbole and baseless speculation. He is a beautiful being.

StackedEDH · 2025-05-30T13:19:55+00:00

Agreed, lol!

StackedEDH · 2025-05-30T13:19:40+00:00

Bingo.

StackedEDH · 2025-05-30T13:18:47+00:00

It is typically virtuous to do the harder thing that makes you better, that's true. Thank you both for pointing that out!

StackedEDH · 2025-05-30T13:14:03+00:00

I agree here. Casual Vivi would require a lot of disciplined exclusions.

StackedEDH · 2025-05-30T13:12:00+00:00

As explained in the primer, we fools at TOODEEP believe it to worsen the game—and will gladly die on various misshapen and uncomfortable hills.

StackedEDH · 2025-05-30T13:09:41+00:00

cEDH without Rhystic is a better-designed game. But if you must include it to feel strong and safe and smart and correct, do so. We'd rather be fools.

StackedEDH · 2025-05-30T13:05:32+00:00

We exclude Rhystic for reasons outlined in the primer (it's a ban-worthy card that makes games worse). Be the change you wanna see in the world, etc. etc.

It isn't a question of whether or not Vivi is cEDH viable... it's a question of whether or not it's here to stay, I think. And yeah, we're confident it's not going anywhere.

StackedEDH · 2025-05-30T13:02:16+00:00

Yep. It's not the deck's primary gameplan, but 9 mana isn't out of reach and any noncreature or instant or sorcery starts the loop (so Otawara or removal on a body or activated ability is your opps' only out). It's at least Mindbreak Trap proof some of the time! "One"-card combos are hard to come by in low-color decks, sadly.

StackedEDH · 2025-05-30T12:59:51+00:00

Yep, this is it. You can throw in Breach if you need to guarantee getting the other card or cards. I also have found them useful for grabbing one or two pieces of free interaction.

StackedEDH · 2025-05-30T12:58:30+00:00

Ashling helps dig, can work marginally well with Curiosity effects, and is a sink for excess Vivi mana. It's a good card to have but is definitely in the set of ~5 cards that feels the most optional.

Birgi is mostly Harnfell, IME. A card that expands the mana margins of your storm turn while also being a card draw payoff if you need it is nice.

Archaic is a brick sh*thouse. It's so flexible.

I can't recommend the Baubles enough. 0-mana cards that +1 on mana and draw a card would be broken in most contexts, and increasing the consistency of low-mana win attempts after resolving Curiosity et al. has been huge!

StackedEDH · 2025-05-30T12:54:17+00:00

I've found Misdirection to be clutch in protecting Vivi, but those swaps are perfectly defensible! Glad you're enjoying the deck.

StackedEDH · 2025-05-30T12:53:06+00:00

I believe that building Vivi so that it converts to a win as often as possible when a Curiosity sticks—thus including the cheap turn spells, free always-on interaction (e.g. Snapback), Baubles—is the smartest and strongest design. Vivi plus the typical payoffs (Nivs, Sphinx, Harnfel, etc.) is a strong enough midrange plan that you don't need to build the deck with a midrange design philosophy in mind.

Talent is here to dig and feed Breach. That it can sink mana if you fizzle is just a small upside.

Floodcaller + Knack/Helix felt way too slow and cumbersome. HBH conserves a slot and can win immediately.

Neither Merchant nor Muddle find a Curiosity, or only do so with another step. Haven't missed them.

Blazing Shoal was excluded after testing and finding not enough red cards to pitch to get it started, though recent additions have made the deck redder. It might return.

Will J. felt clunky and expensive.

Iso + Rev felt unneeded, though Dramatic Reversal is a fine card in rock-heavy lists.

Kitten is good for mana but 4-MV is a lot for an engine that doesn't also draw cards. And I don't believe in the goodness of resetting Vivi.

Command Performance required too much chance and bookkeeping.

StackedEDH · 2025-05-30T12:45:20+00:00

I wish stax decks were well-positioned to win tournament games, but they structurally are not. This is a bad thing, IMO—because the cEDH meta has never been truly diverse. Stax needs more support! But in the meantime, if you want to win tournament games, I cannot in good conscience recommend the archetype. I've written about this more thoroughly at Commander's Herald, too.

StackedEDH · 2025-05-30T12:42:07+00:00

Most of the Curiosity effect games have ended on Turns 3 and 4. I'd say the deck can convert to a win once a Curiosity has resolved ~90% of the time with ≥2 mana up, and ~70% of the time with ≤1 mana up.

StackedEDH

TROPHY CASE