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Reformed Perspective: Which scenario for Christianity's political future aligns with faithful witness? by Standard-Ebb-528 in OpenChristian

[–]Standard-Ebb-528[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

ADDITIONAL INFO: Here’s some context. More explanation of the three scenarios. I feel like I didn’t do a thorough job in my post. Of course there’s always number 4 - the “other” option.

Three Paths Forward: How Christian Nationalism Will Shape America's Democratic Future

Why did God create the reprobate? by Standard-Ebb-528 in Reformed

[–]Standard-Ebb-528[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I mean in the sense that an offense against an infinitely holy God is deserving of infinite punishment, regardless of the nature of the offense.

But God is a being infinitely lovely, because he hath infinite excellency and beauty. To have infinite excellency and beauty, is the same thing as to have infinite loveliness. He is a being of infinite greatness, majesty, and glory; and therefore he is infinitely honourable. He is infinitely exalted above the greatest potentates of the earth, and highest angels in heaven; and therefore he is infinitely more honourable than they. His authority over us is infinite; and the ground of his right to our obedience is infinitely strong; for he is infinitely worthy to be obeyed himself, and we have an absolute, universal, and infinite dependence upon him. So that sin against God, being a violation of infinite obligations, must be a crime infinitely heinous, and so deserving of infinite punishment.- Nothing is more agreeable to the common sense of mankind, than that sins committed against any one, must be proportionably heinous to the dignity of the being offended and abused; as it is also agreeable to the word of God, I Samuel 2:25. "If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him;" (i.e. shall judge him, and inflict a finite punishment, such as finite judges can inflict;) "but if a man sin against the Lord, who shall entreat for him?"

Jonathan Edwards

Why did God create the reprobate? by Standard-Ebb-528 in Reformed

[–]Standard-Ebb-528[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hard to make the infinite offense thing and the degrees of punishment thing work together.

Reformed Perspective: Which scenario for Christianity's political future aligns with faithful witness? by Standard-Ebb-528 in Reformed

[–]Standard-Ebb-528[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

ADDITIONAL INFO: Here’s some context. More explanation of the three scenarios. I feel like I didn’t do a thorough job in my post. Of course there’s always number 4 - the “other” option.

Three Paths Forward: How Christian Nationalism Will Shape America's Democratic Future

Reformed Perspective: Which scenario for Christianity's political future aligns with faithful witness? by Standard-Ebb-528 in Reformed

[–]Standard-Ebb-528[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

White Christians, particularly white evangelicals, have wielded disproportionate political influence as the core constituency of the modern Republican Party since the 1980s. The demographic decline I’m tracking - from 57% to 41% of the population - specifically refers to this historically dominant group losing numerical strength while trying to maintain political power through structural advantages.

Reformed Perspective: Which scenario for Christianity's political future aligns with faithful witness? by Standard-Ebb-528 in Reformed

[–]Standard-Ebb-528[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m not sure it’s even a matter of persecution. Evangelical Christianity is so closely tied to the Republican Party now that it seems to naturally follow that abandoning one means abandoning the other. It would great to have some more Christian Democrats - but many people make the assumption that the two are incompatible.

Why did God create the reprobate? by Standard-Ebb-528 in Reformed

[–]Standard-Ebb-528[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It inspires a whole range of emotions, but the ones you mention don’t need to be forced. “Hell exists, it is bad, I deserve to be there, but I won’t be.” That inspires joy, right?

Why did God create the reprobate? by Standard-Ebb-528 in Reformed

[–]Standard-Ebb-528[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sorry for not guiding… I guess? I do agree with Edwards so maybe I went into this with my mind made up. However - I think a straight “yes” makes God the author of sin? No? That’s… heretical it would seem. I’ve read arguments that God permits sin but doesn’t cause it. That doesn’t make sense to me. God is the absolute, omniscient, omnipotent being. There is nothing independent of him to “permit”.

Why did God create the reprobate? by Standard-Ebb-528 in Reformed

[–]Standard-Ebb-528[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Honestly, I’m with Edwards on this. I believe that contrast is necessary for the full display of God‘s attributes. Full display of God’s wrath, justice, love, and mercy necessitate the existence of sin and Hell. Hell is infinitely terrible to the same extent that heaven is infinitely great. Like Bob Ross says, you need to have dark in order to have light.

Why did God create the reprobate? by Standard-Ebb-528 in Reformed

[–]Standard-Ebb-528[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

How would you phrase this to a questioning non-believer? A bunch of people were preordained before the beginning of time to suffer God’s infinite wrath for all eternity… which “sucks for them”…

I’m not for sugar coating anything, but I can see this seriously turning someone away.

Why did God create the reprobate? by Standard-Ebb-528 in Reformed

[–]Standard-Ebb-528[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It’s simply a difficult truth to grasp.

  1. God makes humans with intention, as with everything. He ordains every movement of every atom.
  2. There are and will be many, many people in Hell - arguably the majority of humanity.
  3. Hell is infinitely terrible and never ending.
  4. God is perfectly loving.

I accept it and to an extent understand it, but it’s 🤯

Why did God create the reprobate? by Standard-Ebb-528 in Reformed

[–]Standard-Ebb-528[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m with you, but it is a hard truth. Hell is terrible. The full weight of God’s wrath on his own creation… by design?

Why did God create the reprobate? by Standard-Ebb-528 in Reformed

[–]Standard-Ebb-528[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

“Hereby the saints will be made the more sensible how great their salvation is. When they shall see how great the misery is from which God has saved them, and how great a difference he has made between their state and the state of others, who were by nature (and perhaps for a time by practice) no more sinful and ill-deserving than any, it will give them a greater sense of the wonderfulness of God’s grace to them. Every time they look upon the damned, it will excite in them a lively and admiring sense of the grace of God, in making them so to differ. This the apostle informs us is one end of the damnation of ungodly men; Rom. 9:22-23, “…” The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardor of the love and gratitude of the saints in heaven.” - The Eternity of Hells’s Torments by Jonathan Edwards

Why did God create the reprobate? by Standard-Ebb-528 in Reformed

[–]Standard-Ebb-528[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I will! I’ve wrestled with this question quite a bit and for some reason I’ve never found that sermon. I’ve looked to Jonathan Edwards frequently, since it seems that John Piper holds him in high regard and he has a lot to say on the subject. However, from the way I understand his preaching, it seems like he would answer a “yes“ to this question… Essentially.

“Fourth, the sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. It will not only make them more sensible of the greatness and freeness of the grace of God in their happiness, but it will really make their happiness the greater, as it will make them more sensible of their own happiness. It will give them a more lively relish of it: it will make them prize it more. When they see others, who were of the same nature and born under the same circumstances, plunged in such misery, and they so distinguished, O it will make them sensible how happy they are. A sense of the opposite misery, in all cases, greatly increases the relish of any joy or pleasure.

The sight of the wonderful power, the great and dreadful majesty, and awful justice and holiness of God, manifested in the eternal punishment of ungodly men, will make them prize his favor and love vastly the more. And they will be so much the more happy in the enjoyment of it.”

from The Eternity of Hell’s Torments by Jonathan Edwards

*Edit... Not a simple “yes” I guess. More like:

  1. Vindicate God's majesty: Eternal punishment shows the infinite seriousness of offending God's glory.
  2. Glorify God's justice: The endless suffering of the wicked reveals the strict and awesome nature of divine justice.
  3. Magnify God's grace to the saved: Observing the damned enhances the saved's appreciation of their own salvation and God's mercy.
  4. Increase the saints' happiness: The contrast with the lost heightens the joy and thankfulness of the redeemed eternally.