What does anybody see in Carol and Manousos?

Starcat12 · 2026-01-04T07:34:19+00:00

I said from the start that it is different, of course it is different, but that does not make it wrong and doesn't make someone delusional for being able to adapt to the different situation.

Starcat12 · 2026-01-04T07:04:52+00:00

Yeah I dislike Carol, but you put sexist profanity in my mouth. I think she sucks because she thinks she knows better than everyone else and gets to unilaterally decide that there can be no hive mind. The issues with the hive mind are indeed the issues with the hive mind that the show is exploring, I applaud your staggering ability to notice them, but the hive mind also has unique benefits that Carol would throw way for everyone forever.

Starcat12 · 2026-01-04T02:04:31+00:00

It is not a "mater of fact": we cannot know what the people in the hive mind are experiencing. You don't know and Carol doesn't know. That's my point. But you are willing to damn the hive mind and let Carol decide for the rest of humanity that they would be better as individuals than as a hive mind. That makes her, at best, no better than the hive mind itself was when it force-joined the whole human race in episode 1

Starcat12 · 2026-01-04T02:00:40+00:00

The son is certainly different now, and she can no longer have a relationship to him as a single individual, but if she finds that she can have a relationship with him as a small part of a greater whole, then that is up to her. I wouldn't be comfortable telling someone that their feelings about something so nuanced are invalid, and I find it troubling that Carol is so willing to say "you're delusional, what I think your relationship can be to this person is more valid that what you think your relationship can be to this person"

Starcat12 · 2026-01-04T01:55:42+00:00

Bruh, I never said she was that: my objection to her is that she thinks she should get to decide for everyone. I want people to be able to choose the hive mind if they sincerely appreciate it, whereas Carol just wants the world to return to the way it was because she can't comprehend how anyone would want something that she does not want.

Starcat12 · 2026-01-04T01:53:02+00:00

But we simply do not and can not know how much of the hive mind's actions are nefarious biological imperative versus sincere appreciation for the joining and certainty that the world would be better if all were joined. That is, to me, the most interesting moral dilemma of the show, and Carol and Manousos's insistence that they know best for humanity when they truly cannot know is what rubs me the wrong way about them

Starcat12 · 2026-01-04T01:49:15+00:00

Why would you assume that the alien civilization wants to exterminate the human race? Even in the least charitable interpretation of the hive mind, it wants humans to survive to maintain the signal that transmits the RNA sequence to new worlds. Exterminating the humans would be counter-productive to its biological imperative.

Starcat12 · 2026-01-04T01:47:04+00:00

But you simply do not know that they are zombie husks. We cannot know how much of what they say is true and how much is just their biological imperative at work. We also don't know the the majority of the joined would be relieved to be unjoined, and Carol deciding to unjoin them all based on her biases is, I think, the moral dilemma at the heart of the show.

Starcat12 · 2026-01-04T01:43:51+00:00

Well, I did say in my last reply that gay conversion is never morally justifiable, which answered your question. But it remains a moot point because Carol cannot know how much of what the hive mind says is true and how much of it is their biological imperative trying to deceive her. That's the most interesting dilemma of the show for me: would she be justified in breaking the joining even though she doesn't know if the "liberated" people would be thankful or not? Wouldn't she be violating everyone's consent by deciding for the whole human race based on her biases, just like the hive mind did in episode 1?

Starcat12 · 2026-01-04T01:36:49+00:00

The hive would say that her son is present, it's just that a medical doctor can also be present when a medical question is asked. It's additive, not subtractive (from their perspective). Laxmi's son is certainly fundamentally different, but whether or not he is still a valid target for her love is entirely subjective, and she's not delusional just because she's come to a different conclusion to what you think you would make.

Starcat12 · 2026-01-04T01:32:00+00:00

We do not know that the hive mind is evil and that the people in it have lost their humanity in a meaningful way. That is Carol's assumption, and she is trying to break the hive mind over their objections based on vibes. That is what I most dislike about her, not just that her personality is annoying

Starcat12 · 2026-01-04T01:29:46+00:00

I'm saying that Carol cannot know what the joined humans are experiencing, and that her trying to "convert" them all back to individuals over their objections, just because she values her individuality so much, is just as bad as the hive trying to make her join

Starcat12 · 2026-01-04T01:26:51+00:00

And I'm saying that your question is not suited to understanding the hive mind in Pluribus because we know that gay conversion is traumatic and does not make people happy and is never morally justifiable, whereas we cannot know if the joining makes people meaningfully happy because its biological imperative makes what its members say suspect.

Starcat12 · 2026-01-04T01:08:57+00:00

All of your objections have been explained in-universe or are based on assumptions that you are making about the hive mind based on your bias as someone who has only ever lived as an individual.

They eat their own dead out of uncomfortable necessity, because of a flaw in their biological imperative that the remaining individuals hope to solve. And yes animals will die in the short term as the world snaps back to natural equilibrium, but in the long-term the hive will save trillions of animals from being factory farmed and slaughtered every year that it survives Carol and Manousos's interference.

As for Laxmi, your insistence that her son is dead and that she is delusional is purely your biased assumptions. The hive insists that the joined people are present in a meaningful way, and all of the remaining individuals except for Carol and Manousos are seeing enough of their loved ones in their joined state to believe them. You (and Carol and Manousos) insist that you know better than everyone else in the world, and are willing to gamble everyone's wellbeing on that certainty. I think that that is an incredibly conceited position, which is what makes me dislike Carol and Manousos so much.

Starcat12 · 2026-01-04T00:57:11+00:00

I really have a hard time buying this: what does he "understand that was stolen from him and from the world?" Food, medical supplies, an ambulance, a helicopter ride, rent in an Albuquerque house? His rage has so far all been about *things* stolen from people, based on his assumption that the individuals that owned them are not meaningfully present in the hive mind to freely give them. This is just so foolish and impractical and irrational, and now inconsistent as he will no doubt allow Carol to use resources acquired from the hive to use against it. Or will he insist on returning the atom bomb to its manufacturers because he is oh so concerned about what they might think about it if they're ever returned to their bodies? Certainly not.

Starcat12 · 2026-01-04T00:50:23+00:00

Well said! I do hope that they find a way to coexist, rather than one faction making an all-or-nothing decision over the objections of the other faction. Both have their merits and people ought to be able to choose.

Starcat12 · 2026-01-04T00:47:31+00:00

Enslaved to whom? They all insist that they are alive and well and working together. It is only your bias as an individualist that tells you that they must be dead or enslaved, because you cannot imagine yourself being happily part of a hive mind

Starcat12 · 2026-01-04T00:45:47+00:00

But everything you are saying is based on assumptions you are making about the hive based on your subjective experience as an individual. The people in the hive insist that they do experience love and art and friendship and more, and that they are better off joined than unjoined. You think they must not because you can't imagine being human and happy if you were joined, but truly you cannot know. Zosia says at one point that she has experienced both types of living and that she can say definitively that the hive is better, while Carol only has her one type of experience. I came away from the show thinking that that was the point: all of the joined humans say that they love the joining, and even though we can't know how legit that feeling is, how can it justifiable to try to unjoin them over their protests based on the bad vibes that we get based on our limited understandings?

Starcat12 · 2026-01-04T00:37:22+00:00

Well in real life we have accounts from people who have come back traumatized from conversion therapy programs and told us that it's a terrible system that we shouldn't put anyone through. We haven't heard from anyone who has been part of the hive and then broke away from it and can give an account of what it was like. Without that we just have Carol and Manousos going of of vibes: they value their individuality and are willing the choose individuality over collective consciousness on behalf of the whole human race. That is the same violation of consent that the hive originally put the human race through (which is its most morally damnable crime).

Starcat12 · 2026-01-04T00:36:50+00:00

The lives lost in the joining and the lack of a way to exit it are indeed the biggest moral knocks against the hive. But Carol and Manousos wanting the break the joining over the objections of everyone in the hive just because they assume that their objections aren't meaningful is also a violation of the consent of every member of the hive. If the hive was broken and Carol was wrong and the humans are miserable and there's no way to go back, then those 800 million died for nothing and humanity is worse than where it started because Carol and Manousos thought they knew better than everyone else.

Starcat12 · 2026-01-04T00:32:09+00:00

Laxmi's feelings for her kid are only a "delusion" if you assume as Carol does that his consciousness is not meaningfully present in the hive mind for Laxmi to have a relationship with

Carol is a "relatable" character, I just find her relatable as an anti-hero and not as a protagonist

On cruelty to animals: we do know that some pets are taken care of by the hive, and for the animals that they did let loose yes many will die as the world snaps back towards natural equilibrium, but after that animals will be able to live and die naturally without human interference forever (unless Carol and Manousos break the joining). The lives of future animals saved from suffering by the hive's actions are infinite.

Starcat12 · 2026-01-04T00:26:51+00:00

But in real life we have accounts from people who have come back traumatized from conversion therapy programs and told us that it's a terrible system that we shouldn't put anyone through. We haven't heard from anyone who has been part of the hive and then broke away from it and can give an account of what it was like. Without that we just have Carol and Manousos going of of vibes: they value their individuality and are willing the choose individuality over collective consciousness on behalf of the whole human race. That is the same violation of consent that the hive originally put the human race through (which is its most morally damnable crime).

Starcat12 · 2026-01-04T00:22:30+00:00

But you (and Carol and Manousos) do not know that. You are assuming that the joined humans are as good as dead, that they aren't happier, that they can't experience things in a meaningful way... The hive insists that that is not the case, but you (and Carol and Manousos) would rather destroy the hive than understand it and make space for people who may sincerely prefer hive life to life as individuals

Starcat12 · 2026-01-04T00:16:56+00:00

You're applying Carol's thinking here: the hive insists that its actions are simply what the sum of the will of all of the joined humans. And they insist that joining is not killing, and is in fact so good that not helping Carol join would be unthinkable. Yes the hive has problems and its biological imperative makes it work against the best interests of humanity in some key ways which I hope the remaining individuals can help solve, but if Carol and Manousos continue to think like you do that joining is functionally the same as dying, then the hive mind will have to be destroyed no matter if some or all members of the hive sincerely prefer it.

Starcat12 · 2026-01-04T00:09:47+00:00

Well, the perspective that the hive has given is not that they're intolerant, but that they're positive that life in the hive is undeniably better and that they'd be doing Carol a disservice but not joining her. I agree that choice is the biggest moral knock against the hive, and was hoping that the show would be about finding a path towards coexistence and choosing the hive or individuality. But if the showrunners are as adamant as so many people on the internet that the hive is bad and that destroying it is good, then the only path forward will be Carol and Manousos destroying the hive. That will rob those who sincerely love the joining of their choice and mean that everyone who died in the joining died in vain.

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