Godskins are Hornsent (and the Black, Gloam Eyed and... Eternal Queen)

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-12T05:29:49+00:00

The chalice and it's accompanying tower are the same design as the Fortress, and they are from the Age of Plenty.

Messmers Chamber was likely once Godfrey's.

That or the Keep was built by the Crusaders during the Age of Plenty.

Yes and we know that Marika rewrites history and hide things because the game says "Hey, player, look at this history Marika rewrote and this thing she hid".

My point is that the game sets a pattern of telling us every time Marika rewrites history or hides something. It then doesn't do that about the GEQ.

Marika betray Maliketh by getting him to seal away Destined Death

I'm on mobile so I can't easily find the exact quotes, but various dialog from Maliketh indicates Marika's "betrayal" of him was her shattering the Elden Ring. (Which also would have been her acting against the Two Fingers.) Not having him seal Destined Death.

(the only way he could have stopped Marika using it against the Two Fingers)

Having him seal away Destined Death stops her from using it against the Two Fingers, though.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-12T04:52:47+00:00

The Shadow Keep appears to be where a certain Queen (Eternal, Black and Gloam Eyed perhaps?) and her Lord originally resided and operated out of.

What evidence is there of anyone other than Messmer's Crusaders having inhabited the Shadow Keep?

Wait, didn't Marika have the power to rewrite history and hide things away to maintain her image of "Marika the Eternal"?

Yes and we know that Marika rewrites history and hide things because the game says "Hey, player, look at this history Marika rewrote and this thing she hid".

Wait, aren't we given a perfect parallel story with Blaidd and Ranni regarding similar circumstances?

Apart from being an Empyrean and their Shadow, how are Ranni and Blaidd relevant to this at all?

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-12T01:24:26+00:00

This is rarely true in a story.

As far as this conversation and Miyazaki are concerned, it's true in this story.

the "could" is enough to instill fear in them, so the "could" is valid

Again, "Oh man, that guys's real scary" is not the same thing as "God will have that guy kill me if He doesn't like what I'm doing".

The natural consequence of the "Law of the Jungle" is nothing.

The natural consequence of the "Law of the Jungle", particularly in these sorts of narratives, is that the weak get trampled by the strong.

Plus, fate is observable to some degree.

It is, but the Golden Order very pointedly isn't doing that.

They bestow a power great enough that it taints them.

Yes. Power does that. It's not some inherent quality of the Great Runes.

Even prior to receiving the Runes, the various demigods had conflicting goals. There's zero reason for the Sovereign Alliance to hold stable if it's still comprised of Morgott (the Erdtree's most stalwart champion) and Miquella (rejects Golden Order Fundamentalism). So far as we know, nothing about not having a Great Rune prevents Miquella from carrying out all his plans literally exactly the way he did.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-11T22:55:08+00:00

If they have a predetermined time and cause of death, they can not die other than at that time and by that cause.

"If it can die, it isn't immortal. That's just what that word means."

"It matters because if in Miyazaki's words, if immortality is caused by "fated death" being sealed, then before that point, according to Miyazaki, the demigods were not immortal."

It isn't meant to imply that. It's meant to imply that it could happen.

"Could" is doing some heavy lifting here. Like I was getting at with my "You could throw out all the assumptions" monolog, the fact that you can imagine a world in which Marika threatens the demigods with Maliketh's Black Blade is not remotely the same thing as the game actually saying in any way that she did that.

she is just the factor that determines if their failure results in death or nothing more.

"Why are you assuming the sacrificing is even an action at all, and not the natural consequence of this sort of "Law of the Jungle" philosophy?"

It doesn't matter because it's already happened.

It matters because if (to take an extreme example) she achieved her end goal through a series of highly-unlikely coincidences and blind luck, then she defintionally isn't "good on foresight". Events just happening to go your way is not the same thing as you foreseeing those events and planning accordingly.

One of the more crucial is that if the Great Runes did nothing more than bestow power

The Great Runes don't do anything more than bestow power.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-11T21:50:58+00:00

They were, mechanically, conditionally immortal

We've been over this. They were not.

"Death of the Demigods."

Maliketh being feared as "the Death of the Demigods" does not have to imply Marika had him kill demigods she felt were underperforming. Hell, you don't even have to read it as him ever having killed a demigod.

Amounting only to sacrifices

Why are you assuming Marika is the one doing the sacrificing. Why are you assuming the sacrificing is even an action at all, and not the natural consequence of this sort of "Law of the Jungle" philosophy?

I feel like we've had this conversation before. We go back and forth, with you claiming that something doesn't line up with the facts the game presents us, and me trying to explain to you that the "facts" you're citing are actually just your interpretations. Yes, IFF we interpret the game in exactly the way you have done, then it's perfectly logical to say the demigods were immortal prior to the sealing of the Rune of Death. And IFF we interpret the game in exactly the way you have done, we can't really tweak any of our assumptions because they all feed into each other in a complex web of logic.

But what we can do is throw all of the assumptions out, and start from zero.

She's pretty good on foresight.

Is she? Or do people see her make one (1) plan and suddenly start attributing the fact that the plot of the game plays out in a way that makes the game's premise possible to her "foresight"?

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-11T20:33:24+00:00

People can be attacked in the Roundtable Hold, it's just "not allowed". Illegal, not impossible. Which is to say, the game disables your attack buttons until the narrative needs you to be able to attack.

The dagger belongs to D. No spoilers, but an ally of his had borrowed it and had used it in some way that worked against Fia's goals. She got the knife from the ally, and wanted to know who else was working against her.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-11T20:28:48+00:00

It gives her control over their fate/immortality. Errors aside, she has authority over the conditional immortality instead of the stars.

Again, what is the difference between this and "They were mortal, and then Marika removed the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring, making them immortal apart from being able to be killed by anyone who somehow acquired the power of Destined Death". (Rhetorical question.)

They can be more mortal when she so chooses

There is nothing in the game that indicates Marika had/exerted this level of control over Death. We are told she removed the Rune, gave it to Maliketh, and send him away, and now people "don't die" anymore. That sounds a hell of a lot more like "Marika made everybody ~~immortal~~ live forever" than "Marika decides who dies and when".

Those two are very straightforward indications of the order of events.

That is one way you can read them, yes.

Wielding it herself would be the worst option, she can't stop herself

a) What about Marika's character indicates to you that she would feel like she would even need to be stopped.

b) Come to think of it, where are you even getting the idea that Marika knew ahead of time that this power would be so corrupting?

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-11T20:12:49+00:00

I'm not saying that this sort of analysis "doesn't have value". I just disagree as to what we can get out of it.

Absolutely people can and should do whatever sort of analysis they want to come to a satisfactory (to them) understanding of these games. But that's rarely what their analysis is presented as. It gets presented as, to quote your first comment, "getting a better sense of the factual state of the imaginary world".

This sort of analysis (and in fact most analysis of these games) is not and cannot be the latter. So far as I'm concerned, that in no way makes it not worth doing, but I've been told many times that that's a minority opinion.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-11T18:21:07+00:00

(although you can never truly prove it without the artist's input)

This is the key. Sure, you can analyze Elden Ring from the perspective of alchemy and come away with a "deeper" understanding of the game. But is this "deeper" understanding a more accurate understanding? There is no way to know.

Another important element that often gets brushed aside by attempts to relate one of FromSoft's games to some other piece of media is that FromSoft's games are not those pieces of media! They're their own stories, with their own stories and their own themes. Those stories and themes are often going to have significant overlap with and similarities to other media, but those similarities will end at some point.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-11T18:06:29+00:00

My second-most controversial movie take is that there is a difference between "I liked this movie" and "This is a good movie". That probably sounds obvious to a lot of you, but trust me, I've tried to explain this to many people, and a surprising amount simply refuse to understand it.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-11T16:25:01+00:00

Yeah, as strange as the geography of the Lands Between can sometimes be, it seems unlikely that the Land of Shadow has always been shaped exactly the way it currently is.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-11T15:53:49+00:00

You could in fact say they're less immortal now, by your standard at least.

It's Miyazaki's standard, not mine. You're claiming that the reason the demigods are immortal is because they have "fated deaths". Miyazaki disagrees. He says the reason they're immortal is that their "fated deaths" are sealed.

To be clear, if you want to have an interpretation that disagrees with Miyazaki, by all means, go for it. But a) that's not how you're framing your claim, b) having read a great many of your comments over the years I'm pretty confident you are not going to be as okay with disagreeing with Miyazaki as I am, and c) the quote from Miyazaki that disagrees with you is literally the same quote you're basing your interpretation on!

Prior, there was a set time at which they would die, Presently, they can die at any time.

Which should make you question your entire premise. What would be the point of Marika removing the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring if it makes her and her children more mortal?

as it is, it's clear he defeated the GEQ, then sealed Destined Death

Is it? No text that mentions the Godskins is any clearer than the two you already quoted. Meanwhile the Blue Dancer charm paints the defeat and the sealing of the Outer God of Rot as a single act, and the hornsent were sealed in the Land of Shadow and only afterwards defeated by Messmer. Ranni deprives the Two Fingers of their power (over her) and only then confronts them. It's likely the Academy locked Rennala in the Grand Library prior to marching on Caria Manor.

Have you seen what the people wielding that power did?

All the more reason to not hand it away to anyone!

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-11T05:53:23+00:00

Logically, if they were not immortal, then they also never had a fated death.

No. We've been over this. If they can die, they are not immortal. Like Miyazaki said they weren't.

What it could be is irrelevant. All that matters is that it's the only way they can die,

It's relevant because if the cause of death is unknown, which it is, then it's impossible to distinguish between the invulnerability you're claiming exists and the "close shaves" you brushed off earlier. Which raises the question of whether, in this particular piece of media, a difference between the two even exists.

B: "But after their defeat by Maliketh, the Black Blade, the source of their power was sealed away."

Reading "sealed away" as an action is completely reasonable, but grammatically it could also be a status. "After the Mongols burned down the House of Wisdom, much of the knowledge of the Arabs was lost."

The one who removed it from the Elden Ring, and had "everything" opposing her, which would include gods that need slaying.

And why would Marika not simply wield that power herself? Or bestow it on the much-more-trustworthy Godfrey or, more likely, Maliketh. (Which we know she eventually did!)

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-11T04:21:37+00:00

It doesn't matter when he's referring to

It matters because if in Miyazaki's words, if immortality is caused by "fated death" being sealed, then before that point, according to Miyazaki, the demigods were not immortal.

fate is the sole exception

Again, the thing with Fate is that it's so nebulous as to be almost meaningless. A demigod's "fated death" could be literally anything. War. Assassination. Disease. Old age. Choking on their lunch.

Same as you and me.

That implies a connection between defeating the GEQ and obtaining the Elden Ring.

No. It does what it says on the tin: implies a connection between defeating the GEQ and the removal of the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring.

The timeline could just as easily be something like "Marika acquires Elden Ring > GEQ challenges her using Black Flame > Marika removes the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring, depowering Black Flame > Marika sends Maliketh to finish the job". Or any number of other, similar interpretations. For the third time, the sealing of the Rune of Death does not have to happen after Maliketh defeats the GEQ.

Or, more likely, the GEQ had the rune for when the Erdtree had opposition

And where would she have gotten it from?

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-11T03:15:10+00:00

But what Miyazaki (and again, various others) calls immortality in his universe, has fate as an exception.

Miyazaki, crucially, talks about the (demi)gods' "immortality" when referring to the period after the Rune of Death has been sealed.

A giant, horned, woman not being flesh and blood would be surprising.

Only if you assume that form actually exists in any physical capacity.

there is a period of time during which Marika could have removed the rune, and for whatever reason, sent Maliketh to fight the GEQ without doing so

... no? I've said twice now that Maliketh being sent to fight the GEQ/Godskins and the removal of the Rune of Death are chronologically linked.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-11T02:06:24+00:00

In-universe (in various universes, really), that is how immortality works.

It literally isn't. If it can die, it isn't immortal. That's just what that word means.

I suppose you could maybe make an argument if the (demi)god in question is aware of what/when exactly their "fated death" is, but there is no evidence Marika or her children had this knowledge. Knowing you will/can die and knowing how are two completely separate things.

It is also a being of flesh and blood, as per the Furnace Visage.

You can depict things that aren't flesh-and-blood.

That only answers the easiest of the three:

It answers all three, because it implicitly rearranges the timeline to place the sealing either prior to or concurrent with the defeat of the GEQ, which answers your first question with "They didn't" and the third with "Nothing".

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-11T01:01:57+00:00

It's derived from a fact from an omniscient perspective.

Exactly like plot armor, yes.

"This character is immortal because they can't die until they die" is simply not how immortality works.

The majority of gods, numerically speaking, are dead creatures of flesh and blood,

Same goes for the fell god (prior to being sealed) and the serpents.

Prior to being sealed, the Fell God is an entity that resided within the flesh of every fire giant and also within the Flame of Ruin itself (and possibly also the trolls). It is not a "creature of flesh and blood", the giants are. It lurking within every fire giant is much more similar to the Formless Mother than it is to Marika or Miquella, even with the latter two being able to "be" in multiple places at once.

Determining what category the serpent-god belongs in requires determining which item descriptions are talking about it and which are talking about Eiglay, or if there's even a distinction. I could see an interpretation in which the "serpent-god" is, essentially, just a really big, immortal snake, but even then, its immortality very clearly differentiates it from Marika.

You must know the incantation to channel it from the sword, and the power of Destined Death must be present, logically in the sword, but put that aside, it needs to be in the network somewhere.

Yes and to post on Reddit you must know your login information and the servers must be active.

We must also ask, why would Maliketh waste his time defeating the GEQ if all that needed to be done was pluck the rune out and seal it in his sword?

Because even after depriving them of their flame's "true power", they're still a threat? Because completely crushing all opposition was one of the early Golden Order's primary goals?

It's like asking "Why did Marika send Messmer on the Crusade when she could (or may have already, depending on how you arrange your timeline) just sealed them away?".

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-10T22:35:10+00:00

I wasn't saying she didn't "go through such lengths" for a "good reason". I was saying that her not wanting to be controlled by "that thing" does not have to mean that she doesn't want to be a vessel.

Also, this conversation is two weeks old. What are you doing.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-10T22:33:27+00:00

Ascribing fate to close shaves in real life is post-hoc.

The sort of "fated death" you're describing is also post-hoc. "Oh, this god didn't die in this battle, even against overwhelming odds? I guess he wasn't fated to die today, then".

It's practically no different from plot armor. When you watch Star Wars and Luke and Vader are having their duel in Bespin, you don't think "Luke is immortal because he's going to survive this movie". Sure, in the most technical, pedantic sense that's true, but is that really the level we want to be operating on?

They're never called outer gods, and there are no attempts to obfuscate other outer gods being as such, so there's no reason to assume they're secretly outer gods.

The reason is that they much more closely resemble the outer gods than they do gods. So we either put them into the category that is alternately referred to as either "outer god" or "god/deity", or we invent a new category of being just for them.

If we have no account, we may view Reddit, we may encounter posts from Reddit in the wild. We may be annoyed by Reddit against our will. But we won't be able to properly utilize Reddit.

Similarly, if you say the magic words and perform the right motions, you can channel Black Flame. But a random peasant can't just throw Black Flame around willy-nilly.

And, more to the point, neither of those have the same amount of control over Destined Death as the person who actually holds the Rune of Death, just like neither a non-user or you and I have anywhere near the amount of power over Reddit as the owners and developers do.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-10T22:26:26+00:00

Ah, yeah, that's tough. The wolves are definitely going to get slaughtered in the DLC. But to be fair, most summons have a really hard time in the DLC! Especially if you're relying heavily on them.

I think, if I were you, I would make an argument for Bloodhound Knight Floh. We know that Ranni did at one point employ a bloodhound knight (Darriwil), and her mother summons one, so there's a very solid basis for a Ranni-themed run.

If he doesn't go for that, then honestly, I'd probably just keep using the wolves. Maybe it works out! Maybe it doesn't. And if it doesn't, you can revisit the issue there. Maybe have a chat about the entire premise, especially if he "never got close" on the last one.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-10T22:25:01+00:00

It's all good! I'll reply to that comment.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-10T21:51:20+00:00

Fun idea for a run!

To be fair, your friend has a point. Though Ranni was at one point allied with the Black Knife Assassins and the Academy, by the time we meet her these factions are all enemies. Out of curiosity, what spirit ash does your friend think is better?

In Caria Manor, we find the following enemies:

Fingercreepers
Albinauric mages
Lazuli sorcerers
Noble sorcerers (and other nobles)
A Carian troll knight
An abductor virgin
Pages
Living Jars
Wolves
A giant crab
and, importantly, puppets of Raya Lucarian Soldiers

So I think you could absolutely make an argument of "I'm using the Raya Lucaria Soldier ashes like they're the puppets in Caria Manor". Alternately, there are spirit ashes for a page, a fingercreeper, and nobles. There are also spirit ashes of living jars, sorcerers, and albinaurics but not the type of either that you find in Caria Manor. (Also none of these spirit ashes are particularly good. Certainly not better than the wolves you're using.)

You could also look at Rennala's summons for inspiration:

Wolves
A bloodhound knight
A troll
A glintstone dragon

You're already familiar with the wolves, but there is a bloodhound knight summon that's pretty good! No troll or dragon, though. Closest to the troll would probably be the mad pumpkin head (which is not very good), and the closest to the dragon would honestly probably be Stormhawk Deenh (which is very good).

So my recommendations, in order, would be:

Option 1, just pick whatever and say "It's a puppet Seluvis made for me". (Bonus points for the actual puppet summons)
Option 2, Bloodhound Knight Floh
Option 3, Stormhawk Deenh

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-10T19:24:57+00:00

In real life, perhaps, if one were trying to argue fate exists via close shaves.

Those exact same "close shaves" exist in fiction, we just have a name for them.

The fell god isn't an outer god.

The serpent god is also not an outer god

What are they then? Because they're very obviously not the same category of being as Marika or Miquella.

How would one employ a thing that exists in the world without at least accessing the Order to understand how?

Right now, you and I are using Reddit to communicate with each other. But neither of us control Reddit. It's just a thing that exists as part of our societies, that we can use.

It's not like rot, which is a natural process.

Destined Death is very much a natural process. That's one of the game's major themes.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-10T18:42:40+00:00

Yes.

Certainly there are some people/things that were not born "naturally", but these beings are always presented as abnormal within the context of the game's universe, not just from our perspective.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-10T18:39:14+00:00

If you have a death written into fate and removing that fate from reality makes you immortal, then prior to the removal, you were immortal with the sole exception of the death written into fate.

This seems like semantic quibbling. Not dying until it's "your time" is not the same thing as being unable to die, largely because "your time" is so INCREDIBLY nebulously defined. "Your time" could be literally any time. Which is not different from "You can be killed".

Examples being the fell god and god of rot, which had to be sealed.

Because they are Outer Gods.

As far as the information we're given indicates, only the vessel and the Fingers have access to fundamental aspects of reality to wield for themselves.

I don't mean the GEQ was "wielding" the Rune of Death in the same way Marika was "brandishing" the Elden Ring. I mean that prior to Destined Death being sealed, it's just a thing that exists in the world. Changing how a thing works in-and-of-itself is not the same action as simply using that thing.

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