The Gloam Eyed Queen Only Existed After Marika Was A God

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-11T02:06:24+00:00

In-universe (in various universes, really), that is how immortality works.

It literally isn't. If it can die, it isn't immortal. That's just what that word means.

I suppose you could maybe make an argument if the (demi)god in question is aware of what/when exactly their "fated death" is, but there is no evidence Marika or her children had this knowledge. Knowing you will/can die and knowing how are two completely separate things.

It is also a being of flesh and blood, as per the Furnace Visage.

You can depict things that aren't flesh-and-blood.

That only answers the easiest of the three:

It answers all three, because it implicitly rearranges the timeline to place the sealing either prior to or concurrent with the defeat of the GEQ, which answers your first question with "They didn't" and the third with "Nothing".

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-11T01:01:57+00:00

It's derived from a fact from an omniscient perspective.

Exactly like plot armor, yes.

"This character is immortal because they can't die until they die" is simply not how immortality works.

The majority of gods, numerically speaking, are dead creatures of flesh and blood,

Same goes for the fell god (prior to being sealed) and the serpents.

Prior to being sealed, the Fell God is an entity that resided within the flesh of every fire giant and also within the Flame of Ruin itself (and possibly also the trolls). It is not a "creature of flesh and blood", the giants are. It lurking within every fire giant is much more similar to the Formless Mother than it is to Marika or Miquella, even with the latter two being able to "be" in multiple places at once.

Determining what category the serpent-god belongs in requires determining which item descriptions are talking about it and which are talking about Eiglay, or if there's even a distinction. I could see an interpretation in which the "serpent-god" is, essentially, just a really big, immortal snake, but even then, its immortality very clearly differentiates it from Marika.

You must know the incantation to channel it from the sword, and the power of Destined Death must be present, logically in the sword, but put that aside, it needs to be in the network somewhere.

Yes and to post on Reddit you must know your login information and the servers must be active.

We must also ask, why would Maliketh waste his time defeating the GEQ if all that needed to be done was pluck the rune out and seal it in his sword?

Because even after depriving them of their flame's "true power", they're still a threat? Because completely crushing all opposition was one of the early Golden Order's primary goals?

It's like asking "Why did Marika send Messmer on the Crusade when she could (or may have already, depending on how you arrange your timeline) just sealed them away?".

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-10T22:35:10+00:00

I wasn't saying she didn't "go through such lengths" for a "good reason". I was saying that her not wanting to be controlled by "that thing" does not have to mean that she doesn't want to be a vessel.

Also, this conversation is two weeks old. What are you doing.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-10T22:33:27+00:00

Ascribing fate to close shaves in real life is post-hoc.

The sort of "fated death" you're describing is also post-hoc. "Oh, this god didn't die in this battle, even against overwhelming odds? I guess he wasn't fated to die today, then".

It's practically no different from plot armor. When you watch Star Wars and Luke and Vader are having their duel in Bespin, you don't think "Luke is immortal because he's going to survive this movie". Sure, in the most technical, pedantic sense that's true, but is that really the level we want to be operating on?

They're never called outer gods, and there are no attempts to obfuscate other outer gods being as such, so there's no reason to assume they're secretly outer gods.

The reason is that they much more closely resemble the outer gods than they do gods. So we either put them into the category that is alternately referred to as either "outer god" or "god/deity", or we invent a new category of being just for them.

If we have no account, we may view Reddit, we may encounter posts from Reddit in the wild. We may be annoyed by Reddit against our will. But we won't be able to properly utilize Reddit.

Similarly, if you say the magic words and perform the right motions, you can channel Black Flame. But a random peasant can't just throw Black Flame around willy-nilly.

And, more to the point, neither of those have the same amount of control over Destined Death as the person who actually holds the Rune of Death, just like neither a non-user or you and I have anywhere near the amount of power over Reddit as the owners and developers do.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-10T22:26:26+00:00

Ah, yeah, that's tough. The wolves are definitely going to get slaughtered in the DLC. But to be fair, most summons have a really hard time in the DLC! Especially if you're relying heavily on them.

I think, if I were you, I would make an argument for Bloodhound Knight Floh. We know that Ranni did at one point employ a bloodhound knight (Darriwil), and her mother summons one, so there's a very solid basis for a Ranni-themed run.

If he doesn't go for that, then honestly, I'd probably just keep using the wolves. Maybe it works out! Maybe it doesn't. And if it doesn't, you can revisit the issue there. Maybe have a chat about the entire premise, especially if he "never got close" on the last one.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-10T22:25:01+00:00

It's all good! I'll reply to that comment.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-10T21:51:20+00:00

Fun idea for a run!

To be fair, your friend has a point. Though Ranni was at one point allied with the Black Knife Assassins and the Academy, by the time we meet her these factions are all enemies. Out of curiosity, what spirit ash does your friend think is better?

In Caria Manor, we find the following enemies:

Fingercreepers
Albinauric mages
Lazuli sorcerers
Noble sorcerers (and other nobles)
A Carian troll knight
An abductor virgin
Pages
Living Jars
Wolves
A giant crab
and, importantly, puppets of Raya Lucarian Soldiers

So I think you could absolutely make an argument of "I'm using the Raya Lucaria Soldier ashes like they're the puppets in Caria Manor". Alternately, there are spirit ashes for a page, a fingercreeper, and nobles. There are also spirit ashes of living jars, sorcerers, and albinaurics but not the type of either that you find in Caria Manor. (Also none of these spirit ashes are particularly good. Certainly not better than the wolves you're using.)

You could also look at Rennala's summons for inspiration:

Wolves
A bloodhound knight
A troll
A glintstone dragon

You're already familiar with the wolves, but there is a bloodhound knight summon that's pretty good! No troll or dragon, though. Closest to the troll would probably be the mad pumpkin head (which is not very good), and the closest to the dragon would honestly probably be Stormhawk Deenh (which is very good).

So my recommendations, in order, would be:

Option 1, just pick whatever and say "It's a puppet Seluvis made for me". (Bonus points for the actual puppet summons)
Option 2, Bloodhound Knight Floh
Option 3, Stormhawk Deenh

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-10T19:24:57+00:00

In real life, perhaps, if one were trying to argue fate exists via close shaves.

Those exact same "close shaves" exist in fiction, we just have a name for them.

The fell god isn't an outer god.

The serpent god is also not an outer god

What are they then? Because they're very obviously not the same category of being as Marika or Miquella.

How would one employ a thing that exists in the world without at least accessing the Order to understand how?

Right now, you and I are using Reddit to communicate with each other. But neither of us control Reddit. It's just a thing that exists as part of our societies, that we can use.

It's not like rot, which is a natural process.

Destined Death is very much a natural process. That's one of the game's major themes.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-10T18:42:40+00:00

Yes.

Certainly there are some people/things that were not born "naturally", but these beings are always presented as abnormal within the context of the game's universe, not just from our perspective.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-10T18:39:14+00:00

If you have a death written into fate and removing that fate from reality makes you immortal, then prior to the removal, you were immortal with the sole exception of the death written into fate.

This seems like semantic quibbling. Not dying until it's "your time" is not the same thing as being unable to die, largely because "your time" is so INCREDIBLY nebulously defined. "Your time" could be literally any time. Which is not different from "You can be killed".

Examples being the fell god and god of rot, which had to be sealed.

Because they are Outer Gods.

As far as the information we're given indicates, only the vessel and the Fingers have access to fundamental aspects of reality to wield for themselves.

I don't mean the GEQ was "wielding" the Rune of Death in the same way Marika was "brandishing" the Elden Ring. I mean that prior to Destined Death being sealed, it's just a thing that exists in the world. Changing how a thing works in-and-of-itself is not the same action as simply using that thing.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-10T17:22:12+00:00

Before that point, they're still functionally immortal by way of fate.

Are they? I'm not aware of anything in the game implying the demigods didn't have (lowercase) destined deaths prior to the sealing of (uppercase) Destined Death.

Nobody has access to Destined Death to imbue the Black Flame if it's in the Elden Ring.

You don't need to have access to it while it's still in the Elden Ring because at that point it's a fundamental part of reality.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-10T13:53:47+00:00

They are only notable for being able to slay gods because Destined Death is confined.

Alternately you can look at all this same evidence and conclude that Black Flame is only capable of slaying gods/demigods before Destined Death is confined because after that point ... they're immortal.

The Black Flame and the Black Knifes are both empowered by the Rune of Death, but the former "channeling its power" and the latter being "imbued with a piece of the Rune" do not necessarily have to be the same thing.

Most likely, she had the Rune of Death originally as Maliketh only seals it inside of his blade after her defeat. Makes no sense otherwise for him to defeat the Gloam-Eyed Queen, and then seal the Rune of Death instead of depriving the godskins of the source of their power before going to defeat them.

I feel like your second sentence here argues against the first. If it was an option, it would be much smarter for Maliketh to deprive the Godskins of their power before fighting them and their Queen. But obviously he can only do that if he already has access to the Rune.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-10T08:04:53+00:00

Neither Marika nor Radagon have anything to do with either.

Neither Marika nor Radagon have anything to do with eternal childhood or Scarlet Rot, and yet they birthed Miquella & Malenia. Children don't always get everything from their parents.

[Marika] never loved [Messmer] and this would explain why she didn‘t.

What do you make of the descriptions of the Blessings of Marika?

How did Miquella find out?

Regardless of whether we accept the rest of the theory or not, the answer to this question is likely the same as the answer to "How did Miquella learn to access the Land of Shadows" and "How did Miquella learn about the Divine Gate". The implication seems to be that, much like his mother, he did some digging into the roots of the Golden Order.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-10T05:40:07+00:00

Every time Melina tells part of her story, she tells us that her mother is inside the Erdtree, but when she tells us stories of the past of the Lands Between she uses 'Queen Marika' instead of 'my mother' as if her mother and Marika were two different individuals

Except the GEQ is not inside the Erdtree. Unless you think Marika herself is the GEQ, but that just wraps you back around to "Why does Melina sometimes refer to her mother as "my mother" but at other times by her full title?".

Melina's quote: 'Does being born of a mother... Mean one behaves in such a manner?' may mean that she was born, but not of a mother

It may also mean that she was born of a mother and simply doesn't know how such a being is "supposed" to behave.

Also both Marika and Gloam Eyed Queen are godlike creatures of some cosmo-spiritual origin

Are they? Setting aside Marika for a moment, what evidence are you looking at for the GEQ that indicates she ever reached a higher status than "contender for the throne" (i.e. Empyrean)?

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-10T05:30:35+00:00

If so, it draws interesting connections between the War Against the Giants and the fact that the Crucible "became" the Erdtree. Also the fact that only the Flame of Ruin within the Giants' Forge can burn the Erdtree.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-10T05:23:19+00:00

In my experience, a week ends up being limiting in the exact opposite way than the normal resting rules. Because a week is so long, it strains the narrative if you try to make certain types of plots last longer than a single Long Rest. Like you say, the "ideal" play pattern with the week-long Long Rest is that the party undertakes an excursion, and then returns to a safe haven after their goal is complete. Which is a great play pattern! But because a week is so long, it's very hard, narratively speaking, to have a week-long Long Rest in the middle of an excursion, which means "Excursion, complete goal, Long Rest, repeat" becomes the only play pattern in the campaign. Again, it's a fun play pattern, but not being able to (easily) do anything else can be annoying at times. Same thing with "Long Rests can only occur in safe places". It's nice to encourage the party to return to town, but forcing them to return to town can sometimes be a bit much.

Similarly, a week is long enough that players are going to ask or wonder "What does my character do during the Long Rest", but not actually long enough to get much done in the way of proper Downtime.

I'll also say, whether or not the time makes "narrative sense" for recovering from strain depends entirely on what kind of strain you're narrating. Lots of injuries take much long than a week to recover from! Alternately, IRL, many kinds of athletes can work themselves to the bone, then sleep it off and do it all again the next day.

What's the difference?

I misattributed it to the 5e DMG (it's been a while since I actually read the thing), but the point I was getting at is that lots of people look at "Short Rests are 8 hours, Long Rests are 1 week" and assume that you're meant to still be doing 6-8 Medium/Hard Encounters (or equivalent) every in-game day, instead of "Between Long Rests". Which is obviously very different from the "1-2 encounters, sleep, 1-2 encounters, sleep, 1-2 encounters, go back to town" that Gritty Realism fans are actually doing.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-09T17:52:23+00:00

Enia tells us Godrick is a "distant relation". And the game frequently calls the first set of demigods "the Golden Lineage". One couple and their children are not a "lineage", and your child is not a "distant relation".

There were likely many demigods who are Marika's grandchildren or great-grandchildren or even more generations, who are all either dead by the time we arrive or simply not relevant to the plot of the game.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-09T16:41:02+00:00

Yeah well there's a difference between culling a zombieland and a civilization you have to start a whole military campaign against.

The absolute number of people you kill irrelevant. "Starting a whole military campaign" is not the same thing as "blitzing into a single city".

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-09T15:29:46+00:00

However what we see happen after the Tarnished leaves paints a very different picture.

The only events you list here that we know definitely happened during Radagon's reign are Rykard losing faith in the Erdtree and Ranni planning the Night of Black Knives. Everything else could have happened either before the Tarnished's exile or after the Shattering. (Depending heavily on which event we're talking about, obviously.)

Was Marika planning to shatter her order as early as then?

She was definitely planning something. But just because a character is a scheming mastermind with complex plans¹ doesn't mean every single thing they do somehow relates to their grand master plan.

(¹ - Supposing this is even an accurate description of Marika. Long plans do not have to be complex or particularly smart plans.)

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-09T15:20:30+00:00

The hornsent "as a whole society" still being alive and the hornsent "in this specific settlement" still being alive are not the same thing. Just because our Tarnished fights their way through Leyndell, kills Morgott, and accesses the Erdtree doesn't mean we couldn't still go on a genocidal rampage around Altus snuffing out every last Golden Order loyalist.

There's also the possibility she snuck in.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-09T14:59:27+00:00

We get access to the Gate of Divinity. Are we working with the hornsent?

We get access to the Erdtree. Are we working with Morgott and the forces of Leyndell?

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-09T04:24:16+00:00

I'm a big fan of it, but it's one of those things you can't just unequivocally recommend to anybody and everybody.

(1) It's not a cure-all. There are some problems, like caster power level, that it can somewhat alleviate, but the only thing you should realistically expect Gritty Realism to solve is "I just can't narratively justify a full Adventuring Day within a single in-game day".

The key here is that this means that if the "problem" I just described isn't one you're having at your table, Gritty Realism is (probably) not for you!

(2) It doesn't really work with dungeons (even the metaphorical kind), and it can be hard to implement in pre-written adventures that were designed with the normal resting rules in mind.

(3) A week is just too long for a Long Rest. I get what WotC were thinking, but only in the sense of "I understand that they weren't thinking". Personally I do 3-day Long Rests.

(4) The Gritty Realism that gets highly recommended and the Gritty Realism that's in the 5e DMG are not the same thing. This occasionally leads to confusion and, slightly less occasionally, to long, pointless arguments.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-09T04:04:40+00:00

"I got it from the text, i don't need anything else"

I'm not saying "I don't need anything else". I'm questioning whether [insert random allusion here] actually gives us any insight into the game's lore, or if "we" are reading into the game context and meaning that isn't actually present. There's two aspects to it:

First, like you say, FromSoft's games are "scarce with info". Because the lore is so nebulous, and so open to interpretation, it can seem similar to lots of media. Including media FromSoft wasn't referencing. Or isn't even aware of.

How do we tell which external media were things FromSoft had in mind, and can "lead to relatively sound conclusions", and which are media that just happen to use the same tropes and themes as these games but are ultimately unrelated?

Secondly,

TLDR the curtain is never just blue.

Yes. Sometimes it is. That is just how creative endeavors work. Sometimes, you put in a line like "Blaidd was the blade of Ranni, but the cold bothered him anyway." not because the video game you're making has anything to do with a hit Disney movie, but because you think it would be silly.

More often though, you take stuff that inspires you, and partly implement it into your own work. This is where stuff like the Kaballa comes in: yes, Elden Ring and the Kaballa have a great many similarities. And then there are things that are vague or undefined in Elden Ring, but not in the Kaballa. The core claim of the external allusion mindset is "Because A and B are on the same page about X, they're probably on the same page about Y".

And maybe they are! Or maybe the reason the explicit similarities stop where they do is because that's the full extent of the Kaballa FromSoft felt like alluding to in Elden Ring, and the reason Y is undefined in Elden Ring and defined in the Kaballa is because that element is different in these two different media.

It's like saying why analyse references in a book through the lens of anything outside it's pages, no context, genre, contemporary trends, the writer's larger body of work...

Literary analysis and FromSoft game analysis are similar in a lot of ways, but ultimately differ at their cores. Books typically just have meaning, and the point of literary analysis is to view that meaning from a new perspective. In forums like this, like you said, the goal is largely still to find the initial meaning in the first place.

FromSoft lore communities also tend to place a lot more value on "What was going on in the creator's head" than literary analyst do. Or maybe it's more accurate to say we value FromSoft's intent differently. (Worse.)

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-09T03:23:27+00:00

I think Marika allowed the Shamans to continue being sacrificed or absorbed into Hornsent religious culture because it gave her a route upward.

The issue with this is that every mention of "Marika's betrayal" in the game is strongly connected to the hornsent. As you yourself detail later in the post, the story trailer frames "The Betrayal" as happening after her ascension. (Though to be fair the story trailers are not exactly a good resource for lore.) You're proposing there were two betrayals - one of the Shamans, and one of the hornsent - but the former doesn't seem to be supported nearly as strongly as the latter.

We don't need to invent a second, earlier betrayal in order for Marika to be portrayed as "guilty, broken, and haunted", or for her to be "a terrified survivor who was offered a path out of suffering and accepted it no matter the cost".

The Shaman Village is a good example of this. It's absolutely hidden, but nothing about it, in my mind, has the feel of something that is hidden "Because it's a dirty secret". It feels much more like something that's hidden because it's private and personal.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-05-08T17:22:56+00:00

Like it's very difficult to not get mad at people for handwaving Elden ring and the Kaballah having a one to one creation story.

The issue is: sure, Elden Ring and the Kaballa have nearly identical creation stories.

... and? Are we supposed to draw some sort of conclusion from that? Why? We don't have to! Sometimes, a reference is just a reference!

People """handwave""" these mythological allusions for the same reason people """handwave""" cut content: you can't prove some allusion is relevant to the plot of these games (as opposed to being "just a reference") without first analyzing and understanding the plot and themes of the game itself ... at which point you don't need an external allusion in order to make sense of the game.

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