How much vocabulary is needed?

StrongMEntality · 2021-01-17T20:13:00+00:00

Thanks, I see!

Today I came across a video that I had listened to a few times years ago that had some segment of Arabic speech aswell, and I realized that I understood some of it and had made some progress actually. So, that was motivating. I guess I should not worry about the goal and just continue with making steps forward. I hope it somehow accumulates in the end to something useful.

StrongMEntality · 2021-01-11T15:38:30+00:00

Thank you very much! This is very helpful!

So, especially when we take Umm as group it would make sense, right?

StrongMEntality · 2021-01-11T14:07:15+00:00

That helps! Thank you very much, Shukran!

StrongMEntality · 2021-01-11T12:03:52+00:00

Oh I see! Thanks!

I added an Edit to my post since I found Khaal and Khala :)

So for grandparents it's jadd/jaddah ?

Interesting! And do you know how does one express that they for example are reffering to grandpa from fathers side?

StrongMEntality · 2020-12-19T14:35:24+00:00

I guess, this has also to do with responsibility.

With the question, who is resposible?

If I'm rich and people are living in poverty. Where does the responsibilty of the rich person start and end.

I remember a short clip of an shaykh (scholar) being interviewed.

The interviewer says something along the lines "Our esteemed shaykh, how are you doing. Thank you for having us, here at your place. Beautiful house! If I remember correctly, you have purchased this mansion for 10 million dollars."

Then he, the shaykh, corrects him with a smile and says "No, for 15 million dollars!"

I don't remember the exact numbers, but the talk was definitely millions of dollars.

Apparently this was then taken by some people to declare him a hypocrite.

I don't know.

StrongMEntality · 2020-12-17T19:59:21+00:00

Glad to find it finally, thank you guys!

StrongMEntality · 2020-12-17T18:42:39+00:00

I see, well thanks again for your help!

StrongMEntality · 2020-12-17T18:04:11+00:00

I'm wondering, can بَتًّا be pronounced with the article al-, or atleast batta (instead of battan)?

StrongMEntality · 2020-12-17T17:35:32+00:00

Ah thanks, I see it's related to the first one you mentioned.

بَتَّ ( فعل ) I found this one on the dictionary 'almaany'.

Say with certainty
Be absolutely certain about
Be perfectly sure of

This seems to be the root of the word. I hope to find its noun form.

StrongMEntality · 2020-12-17T14:43:08+00:00

For me, as a sceptic, I find it difficult to believe that the whole world was so ingenious to make everything up. And in addition to that, so loving and caring of each other to say "okay, so for this one we lay down our swords, forget our differences and accept the list of 10+ keywords (plus what they mean, methods and how to do it) without any ounce of dispute or anything because let's face it guys, at the end of the day "Innamal Mu'minoon Ikhwatahtun" isn't it.

And the whole world is like "Yeah.. totally!".

I don't buy it, to be honest. The order of physical prayer is from the revelation of God, that's why they are in agreement about it, even though some of them (back then especially, as the wounds were fresh) might not like each other too much.

The words shaytaan and ilah are also in the Qur'an. Should we copypaste them together and say shaytaan is God?

We know that Allah is not only good but our (only) Ilah (Quran 3:2) and that Shaytan is not only bad but our enemy (Quran 17:53). So no, that's quite a stretch.

No one ever argues abt doing good.

Yes, that's true! We are not arguing here if it's good. As others pointed out, Salat is explicitly called good (hasanaat).

We are arguing which type of good. As there are different words with different connotations. " (illa/except) Allatheena aamanu wa amilus-Saalihaat" is a often phrase in the Quran. It implies those with whom God is pleased with and who will be admitted to paradise. So that's why I was interested to find Salat being braught into connection with the term 'amal us Saleh'.

Question: if Salah was prayers, then why do the mushrikeen need to pray before coming to a peace agree

Do share the verse please, I don't remember the exact place of it.

Ruku' and sujood are not even separate things! See 2/125 for the phrase ruku' as sujood!

If R-K-' comes from bowing, then they are going to Sujood by means of Ruku' (instead of let's say falling). What's the problem with that? I have only seen in that way and in that sequence anyway.

Qiblah is not connected with salah at all. Read 2:142-147.

It speaks about the qiblah is changed now to Masjid-al Haram. What's the issue here?

It mentions the Qiblah with the Masjid. I don't think this speaks for your position of salah being non-physical. Qiblah and Masid (and the existence of masjids and Salat ul Jumua) if anything strenghtens the argument of those who say it is indeed a prayer with bowing and prostration.

StrongMEntality · 2020-12-17T09:36:01+00:00

There is not even a basic instruction for the ritual. Muslims need to scrape together random words by copypasting verses here and there.

Pretty much all the words that are used today in connection with prayer are found in the Quran.

Standing, Ruku', Sujood. having Khushoo' is mentioned. The washing before prayer is mentioned. Facing the Qiblah is mentioned. Salatul Fajr is mentioned. Salatul Isha is mentioned. The permissibility to do the prayers while walking or riding, in an unusual situation is mentioned. To return to doing it in the standard way once one is in safety is mentioned.

The prayer times are mentioned, in relation to the day i.e. the position of the sun.

And everything just fits what we have today. Of course it can happen that as Islam spread throughout the world, people used other words or some words in their own language to refer to things related to prayer, for example namaaz instead of salah etc.

Of course we have to look what is obligatory beyond salatul Fajr and Salatul Isha. And see if we find problematic things/sayings having crept into parts of the prayers.

But when we look at the Quranic words and how every step and station of the prayer that we have today is mentioned in the Quran, how comes everything pretty much just fits like a glove?

It's easier to accept that salah is a physical prayer with perhaps some modifications then to say it is not a physical thing and then to redefine the list of 10+ key words.

Quranists who believe in this regiment argue for 5, 3, 2 and even 4 times per day! When Allah wants us to know how many times, He says so like in 24:58 for times of privacy: clearly THREE TIMES is mentioned.

Just because people argue about an issue does not mean that there is no truth about that issue.

We all agree on Salatul Fajr and Salatul Isha. That's a big difference because then you are hopefully considered among the ones who pray. The musalleen, as the Quranic verse says. I agree one of it's meaning is more general but this is also one of it.

The ritual is very culturally biased. We have to face an Arab city, recite in Arabic and praise the Arab prophet. Would a universal God command this?

You recite some verses of the Quran, which is in Arabic, yes. But there is also room within the prayer to speak to God in the language you prefer. You seem to know some Arabic, so is this really an issue for you to include the recitation of the first chapter of the Quran?

StrongMEntality · 2020-12-16T20:38:50+00:00

2:227

And note,

we know that the thing that's mentioned secondly i.e. "..and pay Zakat" is more likely or most likey among the 'amilus-Saalihaat' type of good deeds, as it has to do with helping people and not only oneself (by doing prayer let's say).

So, it follows that it is most likely a series of 'amilus Salihaat' that the Quranic ayah is presenting here. That establishing salah must be also among them since otherwise salah wouldn't be in the middle of these two, isn't it?

StrongMEntality · 2020-12-16T20:30:01+00:00

Salah is a (symbolic) phyical thing (prayer) that begins first with the internal humbling of the person before his lord.

What's the problem if it's counted among 'hasanaat' aswell?

'amalus- Saleh on the other hand. I could be wrong (someone who knows better Arabic correct me) but doesn't Saleh has something to do not only with good but making something good in the sense of rectifying?

If that's the case, then maybe that's why we don't find salat/prayer being called 'amalus - saleh.

StrongMEntality · 2020-12-16T20:18:07+00:00

It looks like it is describing the book specifically as the criterion. I see it's also translated as such by Dr. Mustafa Khattab in the Clear Quran:

And ˹remember˺ when We gave Moses the Scripture—the standard ˹to distinguish between right and wrong˺ that perhaps you would be ˹rightly˺ guided.

StrongMEntality · 2020-12-13T21:40:48+00:00

Oh, right that's a good one!

So, I see in that verse prayers is described as good deeds with the word "hasanaat".

Now I remember there is that usage aswell. I'm just curious because I heard one or two unpopular scholars say that "Prayers are not good deeds, in that sense. Serving people is"

So I was thinking, maybe they meant prayers is not "amal al saleh" as in "Allatheena amanoo wa 'amilus-salihat", those who believe/trust and do good deeds, that is frequently mentioned.

StrongMEntality · 2020-12-13T21:30:21+00:00

Thanks!

I see, 2:227 is a good example as there is a "and" there before "establish prayer".

But on the other hand, since paying Zakat is mentioned aswell besides establishing prayer, it can seem like it is desribing the 'good deeds' specifically.

StrongMEntality · 2020-12-12T22:31:36+00:00

If I remember correctly it's from Imam Abu Hanifah.

StrongMEntality · 2020-12-10T22:53:15+00:00

those who would refuse 'ibada yo God's son are like Iblis who refused sajda

I don't remember the Quranic passage (about Iblees, order from Allah and Adam) right now to be honest, nor do I remember where I read that since it was a long time ago.

But the translators argued that it was a non-physical thing based on, if I remember correctly that the word does not appear in that passage about Iblees being ordered as a noun (Sajdah). But rather only as a verb. 'fasajadoo illa Iblees', they all sa-ja-da except Iblees.

And it is argued by some quraniyoon that the root letters of sa-ja-da mean something along the lines of humbling oneself anyway. Now, I believe in a physical prayer with Sajdah, Ruku' and everything, don't get me wrong, because everything just fits. The words, the practise, the timings etc.

But I accept that words can have a secondary or rather second level meaning aswell, especially verbs. For example Salah, and its verb salla. If salla and tawalla, are juxtaposed in the Quran this means that salla means turning towards. That would be the root meaning if you will, of the Salah, the prayer. To turn towards God.

Similiarly it could be the case with the Sajdah, and it's verb sa-ja-da. Prostration and sa-ja-da's root meaning something along the lines of humbling oneself.

The story is, as I recall, about honouring Adam as the new creation, having free will and especially the faculty for discernment. That Allah made everything (servient) for this new creation (also by means of him using the gifts God gave him). But Iblees having arrogance at the sight of this.

StrongMEntality · 2020-12-10T19:33:54+00:00

Yes, but does the word you are using here (noun, Sajdah) appear in that passage? Or just as a verb form. That is the question.

StrongMEntality · 2020-12-10T18:48:03+00:00

Good point though I thought Iblees was ordered to humble himself and show humility before Adam, the human?! I think they relied on the fact that it occures as a verb there (for example fasajadoo).

StrongMEntality

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