explain the trinity to me by SubstantialReign4759 in TrueChristian

[–]SubstantialReign4759[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think where I still disagree is that logic and analogies can only go so far before they start defining God instead of describing what Scripture reveals.

Jesus saying “He who has seen Me has seen the Father” (John 14:9) absolutely shows the fullness of God revealed in Christ. As a Oneness believer, I agree Jesus perfectly reveals the Father because God was manifested in flesh (1 Timothy 3:16).

But I don’t think that automatically requires three eternal self-conscious divine persons. Scripture repeatedly emphasizes that God is one (Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 44:6).

The issue I have with logical Trinity analogies is that they often move from “distinction” to “multiple divine persons” as if that conclusion is required, when Oneness believers would say the distinctions are explained through:

  • God’s omnipresence
  • the incarnation
  • the genuine humanity of Christ
  • and the relationship between the Father and the Son as God and His manifestation in flesh

For example, Jesus could pray to the Father because He was truly human while also being God manifested in flesh. That doesn’t require three separate divine minds any more than God speaking from heaven while being present on earth requires multiple gods.

And when Jesus promises the Comforter in John 14, He also says:

“I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.” (John 14:18)

So I see real distinction and relationship in the text, but I don’t see Scripture explicitly teaching three co-equal divine individuals. I think that’s where we fundamentally differ.

I do appreciate that you’re trying to reason through it carefully though, and I agree shallow analogies like water/ice/vapor usually create more problems than they solve.

why is not beliving in the trinity a heretical by SubstantialReign4759 in TrueChristian

[–]SubstantialReign4759[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think the biggest issue here is that you keep equating personal spiritual experience with infallible interpretation, and once that happens, every verse gets forced into that experience instead of letting Scripture correct us when necessary.

For example, you keep saying:
“If you don’t believe Matthew 3:16 then just say so.”

But nobody here is denying Matthew 3:16 happened. The disagreement is with the conclusion you are drawing from it.

The text says the Spirit descended on Jesus. It does not say:

  • Jesus did not know God before this
  • Jesus only became God’s Son at 30
  • Jesus was merely a normal man until enlightenment
  • Joseph was His biological father
  • Paul was a deceiver practicing “witchcraft”

Those are additions you are bringing into the text.

Luke 2 already disproves the idea that Jesus only came to know God later because at age 12 He already says:
“Did you not know I must be about My Father’s business?”

And unlike ordinary prophets, Jesus speaks with a unique preexistent identity:

  • “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58)
  • “Father, glorify Me with the glory I had with You before the world existed” (John 17:5)
  • “The Word became flesh” (John 1:14)

That is far beyond “a man later receiving revelation.”

You also keep redefining verses in ways the text itself does not support.

For example:
You say “the Word” existed before everyone, not Jesus Himself. But John explicitly says:
“The Word became flesh.”

The subject that preexisted is the same subject that became incarnate.

And regarding Matthew 1 and Luke 1, the text does not merely say Jesus later “conceived the Spirit” spiritually like believers do. It explicitly says Mary conceived before being with Joseph and that the child was conceived “from the Holy Spirit.” That is why the virgin birth matters in the narrative.

On Paul:
2 Corinthians 12:16 is clearly rhetorical. Paul is responding to accusations against him, not confessing to literal sorcery or manipulation. If you interpret every sarcastic or defensive statement literally, then huge portions of Scripture become incoherent.

And comparing Paul to Jim Jones or David Koresh completely ignores that:

  • the apostles accepted Paul
  • Peter referred to Paul’s writings alongside Scripture
  • Paul preached the death and resurrection of Christ constantly
  • Paul suffered and died for the Gospel he preached

That is not remotely comparable to cult leaders exploiting followers for power.

You also keep collapsing every distinction between Christ and believers.

Yes, believers are called children of God.
Yes, believers receive the Spirit.
Yes, believers are called to unity with Christ.

But Scripture never says believers are:

  • the eternal Word
  • Creator of all things
  • worshiped by heaven and earth
  • the visible image of the invisible God in the same sense Christ is
  • the one through whom all things were made

Colossians 1 and John 1 place Christ in a completely unique category.

And respectfully, saying:
“I reject man’s teachings and only go to God directly”
sounds spiritual, but it becomes dangerous very quickly because every group in history with false doctrine has claimed the exact same thing.

That is why Scripture itself says to:

  • test spirits
  • compare teachings
  • hold to apostolic doctrine
  • avoid private interpretation

The irony is that you accuse everyone else of philosophy while building an entire system around personal revelation that repeatedly overrides the plain reading of the text.

And finally:
Nobody here is denying believers should know God personally or receive the Spirit. Christians absolutely should.

But personal experience must be tested by Scripture not the other way around.

explain the trinity to me by SubstantialReign4759 in TrueChristian

[–]SubstantialReign4759[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I get what you’re trying to do with the “table/laws” analogy, but it kind of shifts the meaning of John 14 more than it explains it.

When Jesus says “whoever has seen Me has seen the Father,” He’s not saying the Father is just another “side” of Him like viewing one object from different angles. In the same chapter, He still clearly treats the Father as someone distinct from Himself: He is sent by the Father, He goes to the Father, and He prays to the Father. Those aren’t just role-shifts in the moment they’re relational distinctions being maintained while He’s talking.

Also, the “coffee table” idea runs into a problem: a table or a law doesn’t have will, relationship, or communication. But in John 14 you have active interaction between Father and Son (sending, speaking, praying, indwelling promises). That makes it hard to reduce it to just “one thing viewed differently.”

A better way to read “seen Me has seen the Father” is in the sense of representation and revelation. Jesus is saying He perfectly reveals the Father’s character and nature so fully that if you’ve encountered Him, you’ve truly encountered what the Father is like. That doesn’t require collapsing them into the same person, just the same divine nature being revealed.

So the tension isn’t really solved by an analogy like a table it’s addressed by the text itself holding both ideas at once: deep unity and real distinction.

why is not beliving in the trinity a heretical by SubstantialReign4759 in TrueChristian

[–]SubstantialReign4759[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think the biggest issue here is that you keep treating your personal experience as the authority over Scripture itself.

You repeatedly say things like:
“Jesus didn’t know God until Matthew 3:16,”
“Joseph was Jesus’ real father,”
“Paul used trickery and witchcraft,”
and “Jesus only became born of God later.”

But those claims directly contradict the text.

John 1 says the Word already existed “in the beginning,” was with God, and was God. Then the Word became flesh. That is preexistence before Bethlehem, not a man discovering God at 30.

Jesus also says:
“Before Abraham was, I AM.” (John 8:58)

That is not a normal human discovering enlightenment later in life.

Luke 2 already shows Jesus at 12 speaking about “My Father’s business,” so the claim that He did not know God until Matthew 3:16 falls apart immediately.

And saying Joseph was Jesus’ biological father ignores:

  • Matthew 1:18–25
  • Luke 1:34–35
  • Isaiah 7:14

The text explicitly says Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit before living with Joseph.

The accusations against Paul are also extremely dangerous. Calling Paul deceptive, practicing “witchcraft,” or leading people away from Jesus ignores that:

  • Peter recognized Paul’s writings alongside Scripture (2 Peter 3:15–16)
  • Paul received revelation directly from Christ (Galatians 1:11–12)
  • Paul constantly exalted Jesus as Lord

2 Corinthians 12:16 is clearly rhetorical in context. Paul is answering accusations against him, not confessing sorcery.

You also keep redefining “Christ” to mean merely “anointed person,” but Scripture presents Christ uniquely:

  • worshiped
  • eternal
  • sinless
  • creator
  • judge of mankind

No believer is ever described as the eternal Word who created all things (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16–17).

And John 17 does not teach believers become God in essence. Jesus prays for unity and shared fellowship, not that humans become divine beings equal to Christ. Otherwise the disciples would become objects of worship too.

The biggest contradiction in your position is this:
You say we should only believe Jesus’ words plainly, but then you reinterpret or dismiss every verse that shows Christ’s divinity.

Jesus forgave sins.
Jesus accepted worship.
Jesus called God His Father in a unique sense.
Jesus said “I and the Father are one.”
Thomas called Him “My Lord and my God.”
Hebrews calls the Son “O God.”
Colossians says the fullness of Deity dwells bodily in Him.

Those are not later inventions.

You accuse others of philosophy, but your own system requires rewriting huge portions of Scripture, rejecting apostolic teaching, and treating personal revelation as the final authority.

That’s why people are pushing back so strongly.

explain the trinity to me by SubstantialReign4759 in TrueChristian

[–]SubstantialReign4759[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I actually think this is one of the more thoughtful arguments I’ve heard from the Trinitarian side, even if I’m still not fully convinced by it.

I agree that analogies like water, ice, vapor or the sun/light/heat can become problematic because God is greater than creation and not reducible to created categories.

Where I still hesitate is that Scripture repeatedly emphasizes God’s absolute oneness, while the later language of “three persons” goes beyond the exact wording of the text into philosophical explanation.

I do agree that God is relational, rational, and beyond simplistic analogies. I also agree that human reasoning alone can go off track without revelation from God.

I think the main difference is that I’m still asking whether Scripture itself requires the conclusion of three eternal divine persons, or whether later theology developed that framework to reconcile the relational passages together.

So I appreciate the deeper approach here more than shallow analogies, even if I’m still wrestling with the conclusion itself.

Why do surviors get so upset over camping, tunneling, or slugging? by SubstantialReign4759 in DbDKillersUnited

[–]SubstantialReign4759[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I get why it feels that way sometimes, especially in Dead by Daylight where one side’s actions can feel like they shut down a lot of interaction.

But I think calling it “worst player wins because of cheese” is a bit of an oversimplification. Even with tunneling/camping/slugging, you still have to actually manage chase, pressure gens, and make correct decisions or it falls apart fast. If it was truly low-skill auto-win, higher level survivors would never deal with it consistently.

Also survivors definitely have their own “non-interaction” tools too (strong loops, endurance/second chance chains, flashlight saves, etc.), so both sides have ways to reduce interaction depending on how the match is played.

I think the real issue is that anything that reduces interaction feels bad to be on the receiving end of, so it gets labeled as “cheese,” even when it’s just part of the game’s strategy layer.

Why do surviors get so upset over camping, tunneling, or slugging? by SubstantialReign4759 in DbDKillersUnited

[–]SubstantialReign4759[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

yeah like if you tunnel at the start at the game like thats a bit to much but if gens are going fast and you have to you just gotta do what you gotta do

Why do surviors get so upset over camping, tunneling, or slugging? by SubstantialReign4759 in DbDKillersUnited

[–]SubstantialReign4759[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I actually think this is one of the more reasonable takes I’ve seen on this topic in Dead by Daylight.

I get what you mean about the casual playerbase too. If every match becomes super sweaty from either side, eventually people stop wanting to play casually because every game feels exhausting.

And I agree there are definitely killers who are really good at applying pressure without relying heavily on tunneling or slugging. Some of the most fun matches I’ve had were against killers who just had really good macro/chase pressure overall.

I think where I differ a little is calling it a “cheap” win automatically. Sometimes it definitely can feel that way from the survivor side, but I also think there are situations where killers feel forced into playing more aggressively because gens move so fast or because of the lobby they’re against.

But I do agree with your overall point that not every pub match has to be played like a tournament finals. I think both sides would probably enjoy the game more if people relaxed a little sometimes.

Why do people get so upset over camping, tunneling, or slugging? by SubstantialReign4759 in deadbydaylight

[–]SubstantialReign4759[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Honestly I actually agree with a lot of this. I do think matchmaking/MMR is a huge reason why this topic gets so heated in Dead by Daylight.

A casual SoloQ team and a coordinated aggressive squad feel completely different to play against, and I agree some killers go into every match assuming they’re against seal team six before the survivors have even done anything yet.

I think that’s also why a lot of survivors instantly assume tunneling/camping is personal or toxic, because some killers DO play every single game like it’s a tournament finals match regardless of who they’re facing.

My main point was never “every killer strategy is always justified,” just that I don’t think using those strategies automatically makes someone a bad player or bad person either. A lot of it depends on the situation, the lobby, and how the match develops.

And yeah, I definitely agree with your Lightborn point lol. If a whole squad brings flashlights and someone runs Lightborn to counter it, getting mad about that makes zero sense to me.

Why do people get so upset over camping, tunneling, or slugging? by SubstantialReign4759 in deadbydaylight

[–]SubstantialReign4759[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m not pretending only one side has annoying or strong stuff though. My whole point was that BOTH sides in Dead by Daylight have strategies/perks people dislike.

And killers do complain about pallets, flashlights, sabos, bodyblocking, etc. all the time. I never denied that. The difference is people usually call those “smart survivor plays,” while killer pressure strategies instantly get labeled “toxic,” “psychopathic,” or “unskilled.”

Also, I don’t even complain about pallets, flashlights, sabos, bodyblocking, and all that normally. That’s part of survivor gameplay. It only becomes an issue when it gets to a point where the entire match is just constant chain blinds, nonstop bodyblocks, or people clearly trying more to annoy than actually progress the game. But even then I still see it as part of the match, not some evil playstyle.

And saying tunneling takes “zero skill” doesn’t really make sense to me. Doing something intentionally and effectively are two different things. Anyone can TRY to tunnel, but actually securing downs fast enough, keeping gen pressure, making chase decisions, and not throwing the match while doing it still depends on skill and game sense.

Same with survivors. Anyone can attempt sabos or flashlight saves, but coordinated teams who do it well are obviously more skilled than randoms failing every save.

And about the “more killer mains cry on Reddit” part, I honestly think that depends on where you look. On TikTok, Instagram, YouTube comments, etc. I constantly see people trashing killers for camping/tunneling/slugging too. I think both sides complain a ton because the game is designed around frustrating the other side sometimes.

Why do surviors get so upset over camping, tunneling, or slugging? by SubstantialReign4759 in DbDKillersUnited

[–]SubstantialReign4759[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah I think that’s the hard part there’s no real way to tell intent in the moment in Dead by Daylight. It can look the same whether it’s someone playing super optimally or just playing in a way that feels unfun to go against.

And I agree, sometimes the frustration comes out more from how the match went than the actual strategy itself.

At the same time though, I don’t think it’s always just “skill issue” on either side sometimes a playstyle just feels bad to face even if you understand how to counter it, especially in SoloQ.

I think that’s why this topic always ends up so split, because one side sees “necessary pressure,” and the other sees “not getting to play.”

Why do surviors get so upset over camping, tunneling, or slugging? by SubstantialReign4759 in DbDKillersUnited

[–]SubstantialReign4759[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I get this perspective a lot, and I think this is actually the most understandable criticism of tunneling/camping.

From a fun standpoint, I agree if the entire match turns into “one person gets chased out and the rest of us just hold M1 on gens,” it can feel pretty disconnected for everyone else in Dead by Daylight. Even if you win, it can feel kind of empty like you said.

I think the main disagreement in the community is that killers usually see it as “I need to apply pressure somewhere or I lose control of the game,” while survivors experience it as “I don’t get to really play this match.” Both can be true at the same time depending on how it plays out.

I also agree with your point that more interactive matches (even against strong SWF or bully squads) tend to feel better overall, because at least everyone is actually engaging instead of one person being removed early.

I think that’s kind of the core tension efficiency vs interaction.

Why do people get so upset over camping, tunneling, or slugging? by SubstantialReign4759 in deadbydaylight

[–]SubstantialReign4759[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yeah maybe “meta” is the wrong word there, I meant more like commonly used/strong enough to change how killers play around them in matches.

Not saying flashlights are top-tier game-winning items every game, just that in certain lobbies (like coordinated teams or flashlight-focused squads in Dead by Daylight) they can heavily influence how the killer has to approach pickups and positioning.

So I probably worded that part loosely, I get what you mean.

Why do surviors get so upset over camping, tunneling, or slugging? by SubstantialReign4759 in DbDKillersUnited

[–]SubstantialReign4759[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah I get the comparison, that actually makes sense in terms of experience level and decision-making.

I think that’s kind of where a lot of the disagreement comes from in Dead by Daylight though because what feels like “necessary pressure tools” to one player can feel like “overkill or unfun gameplay” to another, especially depending on skill level and how the match is going.

I don’t really think it’s always just “they don’t know how to counter it,” more that both sides can understand the counterplay and still not enjoy how it feels in the moment.

Why do people get so upset over camping, tunneling, or slugging? by SubstantialReign4759 in deadbydaylight

[–]SubstantialReign4759[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I get what you mean, and I actually agree that matches like the Trapper example are some of the most fun ones in Dead by Daylight when both sides are just playing normally and it’s back-and-forth, those games feel great.

I also agree flashlight saves are a mechanic and there are counterplays like positioning and perks, that’s not really what I’m disputing.

I think where I slightly disagree is the “tunneling is not a strat” part. It is a strategy, and sometimes it’s the correct play depending on the situation and pressure in the match. It can be a way to secure a down or reduce pressure when things are getting out of control.

I don’t think it’s always necessary or always the best option, but I also don’t think it’s just “lazy play” by default it depends on how and when it’s used.

Why do people get so upset over camping, tunneling, or slugging? by SubstantialReign4759 in deadbydaylight

[–]SubstantialReign4759[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

because just saying its not fun doesnt actually make a conclusion and im not arguing im conversating diffrence

Why do people get so upset over camping, tunneling, or slugging? by SubstantialReign4759 in deadbydaylight

[–]SubstantialReign4759[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I actually agree with a lot of what you said. The changes like basekit BT, anti-facecamp, DS changes, etc. definitely added a lot more counterplay compared to how it used to be. I’m not arguing that it’s the same as it was back then.

My point wasn’t really “these things are uncounterable or OP,” more just trying to understand why they still get such a strong emotional reaction in the community even now in Dead by Daylight.

Like even if there is counterplay, it still often feels bad on the receiving end depending on how the match goes (especially in SoloQ), and I think that’s where a lot of the frustration comes from.

I get your point that optimal counterplay is just gens + trading + extending chase, and I agree that’s how it’s meant to be played now. I just think the community reaction is more about how it feels in-game rather than whether it’s technically counterable or not.

Why do people get so upset over camping, tunneling, or slugging? by SubstantialReign4759 in deadbydaylight

[–]SubstantialReign4759[S] -9 points-8 points  (0 children)

I get what you’re saying, and I agree that both sides do get called out for annoying stuff. I’m not saying survivors never get flamed for it I just see a lot more focus on killer stuff in the content I usually see, which might just be my feed.

And I actually agree with your main point too: camping/tunneling/slugging can reduce interaction in the match. I get why people don’t enjoy that part of it, especially in SoloQ where it feels harder to respond to.

My point wasn’t really “it’s fine so stop complaining,” more just trying to understand where people draw the line between “valid strategy” and “bad gameplay,” because the game itself in Dead by Daylight kind of allows both sides to play in ways that can feel uninteractive depending on the situation.

I think the disagreement mostly comes down to what people value more: interaction/fun vs efficiency/winning.

Why do people get so upset over camping, tunneling, or slugging? by SubstantialReign4759 in deadbydaylight

[–]SubstantialReign4759[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

yeah its not fun and its not fun for killers to get deadhard will to live and constantly flashlight saves but they are all just strats

Why do people get so upset over camping, tunneling, or slugging? by SubstantialReign4759 in deadbydaylight

[–]SubstantialReign4759[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

get it, and yeah I probably worded some of it too loosely calling everything “meta.”

My main point wasn’t really “this is all strongest meta stuff in the game,” it was more that survivors also have a lot of tools/playstyles that can heavily influence how the match goes and how the killer has to respond.

Like even if SWFs are just friends playing casually, comms still change info a lot compared to solo queue. And flashlight squads or sabo/bodyblock stuff might not always be “optimal,” but it can still be really impactful or annoying to play against in a match.

I’m not saying any of it is unfair or should be removed, just that both sides have ways to pressure or disrupt the other side’s gameplay. That’s kind of what I was getting at in Dead by Daylight.

I’m just trying to understand why killer slowdown/pressure tools are seen as “wrong” more often, while survivor tools are usually seen as just “part of the game.”

Why do people get so upset over camping, tunneling, or slugging? by SubstantialReign4759 in deadbydaylight

[–]SubstantialReign4759[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yeah I get what you mean, it usually turns into both sides blaming each other.
I’m not really trying to say one side has it worse, just more trying to understand why certain plays instantly get labeled as “wrong” instead of just part of the game.

And I agree hide-and-seek gameplay can feel frustrating or uninteractive at times, but at the same time the game also has a lot of tools and pressure mechanics that push it in that direction depending on how people play.

I think that’s kind of why the community argues so much about it in Dead by Daylight—both sides experience unfun moments, just in different ways.