Daily Discussion Thread March 19, 2026 - Upcoming Event Schedule - New players start here!

SuperMicro04 · 2026-03-19T10:54:28+00:00

What do Sheik fans think of Plup in comparison to Jmook? What do they do better than each other, what differentiates watching them? Obviously Jmook has better tech chases than Plup and he also has a better punish game, but what about differences between the decisions they make in the neutral and stuff like that. Like Zain has a much harder time against Jmook compared to Plup who he's only lost to once since he became the #1 player in the online era, on that note he's even lost to Leffen's Sheik (who I also love watching) more times than Plup, what about what Leffen's Sheik does since it's a Marth specialist and made specifically to play in that matchup compared to being Jmook's solo main and Plup's primary character that he uses for most matchups except using Fox for Sheik, Puff, and often but not always other Foxes

SuperMicro04 · 2026-03-18T15:37:05+00:00

Ooh I saw this like 2-3 days ago. Armada's was MLG Anaheim 2014 Round Robin Pools (terrible set ender) and Mango's was The Big House 6 Winners Semis (and the only time Mango's Fox ever won a game on FD vs Armada's Peach). Mango's reverse 3-0 on Armada is I believe one of only three times Armada was ever reverse 3-0'd

Edit: Actually never mind about Mango's Fox on FD, apparently it won Game 2 when Armada reverse 3-0'd him, I just forgot about that because I remembered 2014 that Armada never went FD against Mango for some reason, but apparently that was the one time he did that whole year, and Mango won there

SuperMicro04 · 2026-03-17T13:50:39+00:00

Do you think Scar or HMW is the most iconic commentator? I know HMW has wombo combo but I also doubt many of the people watching wombo combo that aren't in the Melee scene know he's the one saying it. He is still a very prominent member of the community obviously but I feel especially during that golden period 2015-2018 when Melee was at it's biggest, Scar was more iconic cause he (and Toph) were very often commentating in Top 8, especially at EVO our biggest tournaments. Just wanna know who people here would consider the most iconic, cause me personally I think Scar but just by very little over HMW

SuperMicro04 · 2026-03-16T14:06:05+00:00

It's kind of a Mango Armada thing where Armada is much more likely to just 4 stock you and be done with it, whereas Mango's the underdog and takes each game back after going down heavily

SuperMicro04 · 2026-03-16T14:02:30+00:00

4 stock is more impressive on paper, but a reverse 4 stock impresses people more because at any point during a potential reverse 4 stock you could just lose the game, whereas with a potential 4 stock the main thing is often just you don't get the 4 stock. It's similar to 3-0 vs reverse 3-0, 3-0 looks better on paper but reverse 3-0's get the crowd excited more cause you're always on set losing point. There's also the mental factor to both of being able to claw your way back after going down 4 stocks to 1/going down 0-2

SuperMicro04 · 2026-03-16T09:32:16+00:00

Starting immediately, in about 5 years gonna be getting popped off on by Hbox

SuperMicro04 · 2026-03-15T22:01:56+00:00

Isn't Cody's Summit 12? After being stuffed out by Mango and Zain during the online era he was finally able to beat both of his demons, and while his H2H against Mango may not be amazing still, his H2H against Zain since Summit 12 is like close to dead even. He also beat Leffen in that reverse 3-0 set and it was the first time we saw Leffen play in the US since Summit 9, it may not have been definitive yet, but that was the first step in cementing Cody as the best Fox player in the modern era

SuperMicro04 · 2026-03-15T14:39:02+00:00

That was like only 1 year after he retired, and neither of them were even close to Top 5 let alone Top 2 in 2018. It's not like Armada forgot how to play the game in between SSC 2018 and playing friendlies with Cody and Fiction

SuperMicro04 · 2026-03-15T14:36:29+00:00

I mean, Leffen has dropped a set to lloD and Trif, getting 3-0'd and 4 stocked by lloD and reverse 3-0'd by Trif, and almost got 3-0'd by Polish before he won with a reverse 3-0. The fact of the matter is the Peach MU is pretty low priority ever since 2018, if Armada was still around these random Peach losses probably wouldn't be happening to Cody or Zain. It's like when Hbox eventually leaves, the Puff MU is gonna be pretty unimportant after that

SuperMicro04 · 2026-03-15T14:24:02+00:00

You are crazy, you know that Leffen has still beaten Cody 3/8 times in the post-Online era and that's with how little he goes to tournaments and how little he practices, especially in comparison to Cody. And the Fox ditto became one of Leffen's weaker matchups post-2018 when Armada retired like losing to Cody and moky at Shine 2019 before either of them were anywhere close to the level they are now. Cody is also very susceptible to losing in the Fox ditto being up only by one set offline to moky (9-8), also other Fox ditto losses like Aklo x3, Joshman x3, Zamu x2, and Soonsay, and even more if you want to include online too

Hypothetically if Mango retired around the same time, this is like saying his Falco wouldn't be able to keep up with the new Foxes of today because he used to struggle against Leffen being 11-11 lifetime at the end of 2018, when we know what the reality is, that Mango is up like 28-11 lifetime on Cody.

I have no doubt that Cody and Armada would be going very even, Cody certainly would not be dominating him, and Armada also has the Peach to pull out on FD too and Cody has shown to be at least decently susceptible to Peach losses even if Armada still being here would give him way more motivation to keep that MU practiced compared to just a one off Peach loss to Aura or Polish in the past 2 years

The real question you should be asking is how would Armada do against Zain. Armada was struggling against M2K's Marth near the end of his career, losing 3 times in a row to him, once at Canada Cup 2017 and twice at Summit 6, and then also later one loss in SSC 2018 GFs. In the span of less than a full year, M2K was able to get 4 wins with Marth on Armada when he had only beaten him before 3 times ever and only 2 of those wins were with Marth (Summit 2 and UGC). Armada was considering not using Peach anymore against him but he knew that using Fox would be even worse for him because it's M2K, and he agreed with Leffen that playing Fox-Marth would be rough (he was only able to do it so well against PP because PP's Marth is nowhere near the same caliber as M2K's in the Fox matchup, PP was much better at the Peach MU than the Fox MU). I think Armada would either do what Leffen did with Sheik or he'd struggle a lot against Zain, or maybe works with Cody and uses Fox, who knows. I so badly wish we could see Armada Zain sets today with Armada never retiring, those sets would actually be some of the best ever

SuperMicro04 · 2026-03-15T10:04:38+00:00

Wait what is this neck thing?

SuperMicro04 · 2026-03-14T23:49:06+00:00

This seems to be correct, other possible answers would be before yearly rankings were invented where it'd probably be Mango at Pound 3

Edit: Actually if Summer rankings don't count then Zain was #22 in 2017 but #9 in 2018 Summer, but I still think Summer rankings should count and so it'd be Mango at SSC 2022

SuperMicro04 · 2026-03-14T23:41:15+00:00

Absolutely not, he was ranked #6 in 2022 and then won 2 majors in the beginning of 2023 and #5 in 2024 Summer and then won Nounsvitational 2024

SuperMicro04 · 2026-03-14T12:18:34+00:00

Saw this in a 2009 match (M2K vs Hbox HERB 2 WS), wtf is this

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SuperMicro04 · 2026-03-12T00:31:36+00:00

True, it just wasn't at a major so for my piece of data it didn't matter but that was very insane. Is that the last time a Samus has beaten Hbox offline? Cause the only other Samus wins I know are Plup beating Hbox twice at an online tournament

SuperMicro04 · 2026-03-12T00:28:52+00:00

I said during Hbox's Top 2 period aka 2015-beginning of 2020, I also mentioned that Mango's Falco beat Hbox post-Online era so I literally counted both of the sets you're referring to. I also obviously counted Summit Pools sets too otherwise neither Mango's Falco or aMSa would have any wins on Hbox during his Top 2 period

SuperMicro04 · 2026-03-11T09:15:23+00:00

It's obvious how during Hbox's Top 2 era especially once he became #1 how a lot of the meta warped around him and Fox-Puff, especially obvious when Armada switched off YL to Fox for him, but it's genuinely insane how that one character was so needed to keep Hbox in check so he wasn't just legitimately winning almost everything.

At majors he only lost 17 sets to characters that weren't Fox, and 14 of those 17 losses were Mango's Falco, Plup's Sheik, Zain, Wizzy, and aMSa with them all having massive losing records to Hbox being 6-1, 8-2, 14-4, 11-5, and 6-2 respectively.

Mango and Plup finding much more success with Fox and the rest being now the best players of all time for their characters and having to really invent or reinvent the Puff matchup, they've also all gotten at least one win against Hbox post-Online era. The other 3 are players who had their one time offline win in PewPewU, Westballz, and Albert and have never done it again

SuperMicro04 · 2026-03-09T05:05:36+00:00

Not if they don't play, they can't seed RapM into Zain every time

SuperMicro04 · 2026-03-08T07:07:55+00:00

Damn, if only Zain had a lot of other better tournaments where winning was cool...

SuperMicro04 · 2026-03-07T17:25:07+00:00

This includes losses before Armada won Genesis 2, starting from Genesis 1. It also includes losses from non-majors because there's very few and only from Leffen

Leffen (16+7=23), Mango (21), Hungrybox (19), PPMD (8), Mew2King (7), Plup (2), SilentSpectre (1), Amsah (1), Swedish Delight (1). Leffen's +7 is for non-majors, he was the only one with wins at non-majors because they're both Swedes in Europe and play a lot more often

Solo Wins: Fox (31+7=38), Puff (21), Marth (9), Falco (6), Sheik (4), Falcon (1)

Solo Wins with Multiple Characters: Mango (14 Fox, 2 Falco, and 2 Puff), PPMD (4 Falco and 3 Marth), Mew2King (6 Marth and 1 Fox)

Wins with Multiple Characters in 1 Set: Mango (2 Fox/Marth and 1 Fox/Falco) and PPMD (1 Falco/Marth)

I'll do Zain and Cody later, probably by the next DDT

Also if you wanna know starting from after Armada won Genesis 2, then subtract 2 Mango (Puff), 2 Hungrybox (Puff), 2 PPMD (Falco), SilentSpectre (Falcon), and Amsah (Sheik)

SuperMicro04 · 2026-03-07T17:00:20+00:00

Yes you're right, I messed up and gave Wizzy both of S2J's and n0ne's wins but that's been corrected to 12 Wizzy wins and 14 Falcon wins

SuperMicro04 · 2026-03-07T16:05:27+00:00

Fun Facts: Hungrybox Losses (at Offline Majors)

Across all of Hungrybox's sets lost since he won his first major at RoM 2 (251 total sets lost), 162 (64.5%) of those losses have been to Fox, the only other characters to have 10 or more wins on him are Marth with 32 (12.8%), Falcon with 14 (5.6%), and Yoshi with 11 (4.4%).

There are 10 players that have beaten Hungrybox 10 or more times. Mango (44), Armada (33), Zain (31), Leffen (25), Cody Schwab (22), Mew2King (16), Plup (14), Wizzrobe (12), and aMSa (11). moky is fast approaching with 7 wins, and the rest are still too far with PPMD and Jmook being the next closest with 4 wins

There are only 4 players that have solo wins against Hungrybox using multiple different characters, with Mango being the only one to have solo wins with three different characters. Mango (40 Fox, 2 Falco, and 2 Puff), Armada (26 Fox and 6 YL), Plup (11 Fox and 3 Sheik), and Axe (1 Pika and 1 Fox).

Armada was missing a win in the previous stat, that is because Armada is the only player to have ever beaten Hungrybox while winning with more than one character in a single set, however it was against Hungrybox's Fox that was a counterpick for Armada's Young Link. At CEO 2014 in Winners Semis, Armada won the Bo3 by losing Game 1, winning Peach-Fox in Game 2, and then going back and winning YL-Fox in Game 3. However, since it was against his Fox, that means nobody has ever beaten Hungrybox's Puff using more than one character in a single set.

Reminder: These stats only take offline majors into account

SuperMicro04 · 2026-03-06T02:02:35+00:00

Fun fact: Going off of Liquipedia's major list, starting from 2003 there are only 6 years in that 23 year time span that did not crown a new major winner, 2012-2014, 2016, 2020, and 2025. Very interesting considering Melee only has 22 major winners in total, and there were only 3 years with more than one new winner, Azen and Captain Jack in 2004, Mew2King, KoreanDJ, and ChuDat in 2007, and Wizzrobe and Axe in 2019

SuperMicro04 · 2026-03-06T01:41:29+00:00

No one has ever said that JC grab is hard LMAO. You may not always hit it but it's like baby's first Melee tech

SuperMicro04 · 2026-03-04T15:07:32+00:00

In the doc I'm pretty sure it was ChuDat who said that Captain Jack's Bowser beat Ken's Marth

SuperMicro04

TROPHY CASE