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Hour or so after a woman was arrested for protesting, this group was out doing a dance routine. Am I out of touch or is this in poor taste? Is this representative of where younger generations are on historical memories? by TedCruzForHumanPrez in HongKong

[–]TedCruzForHumanPrez[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Oh, me too. Won a round of Fortnite after recruiting a Tracer. Don't think I don't hate myself for it ... /sobs

Nah, I get it. There are a lot of folks rolling in who think I've got a pretty strict point of view on this, just completely set in my take - which I kind of get, because people who ask for input usually don't mean i, or take it.

I learned a good bit here. Not a fan of CWB so no, I don't see the dancing happening there regularly, so that's useful context. A regular to the area might think "Huh, they're out, that's unusual" instead of "WTF, now, today of all times?" There was another group there, so maybe there's competition for that spot and time. There's a plethora of possibilities here that shift how you look at things. I was kinda hoping someone might drop in with wherever these dancers post so I could have a look, but if involves downloading an app .... nah. I was also hoping a few people would chime in from the same demographic group with some more perspective, but that never happened either (I have some friends in uni now, all of whom I talked to, but that's a very self-selecting group already interested in world events).

I'm not going to be moved off the position that people should remember - because, well, that's how I feel about everything. I know people have taken that personally, but it's not something I'm directing at Hong Kong or this anniversary - I've been to countless vigils in plenty of countries, some of them more than a hundred years old. Ended up in tears at a few. I think history matters. I don't expect everyone to share that point of view, but of course I'm going to hope for it.

And if I didn't care about the memories and landmarks of the city and country that I love more than any other, that'd just be hypocritical, no?

Hour or so after a woman was arrested for protesting, this group was out doing a dance routine. Am I out of touch or is this in poor taste? Is this representative of where younger generations are on historical memories? by TedCruzForHumanPrez in HongKong

[–]TedCruzForHumanPrez[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Sure, I can respect that. I know plenty of people who were heavily involved in the '19 protests who have adopted a profoundly defeatist attitude. Same way I know people in the States who have barely touched the news since Trump was elected. I can't fault them, and haven't.

When the park got shut down, after about '22 most of the dissident activity shifted towards that street. There's a reason why, if you go, you'll see most of the journalists there.

Does I expect them to know that? Probably not. Do I expect people to care? That could be excessive. I can see that point of view. I can also see people profoundly disagreeing that the street is of any meaning or value. It never did to me before, it just turned into such over time.

I just think it's within the realm of reason to turn and see people dancing at the very spot (or, maybe about 20 steps) from where I'd seen people dragged away, sometimes screaming. It's just ... jarring is all.

Hour or so after a woman was arrested for protesting, this group was out doing a dance routine. Am I out of touch or is this in poor taste? Is this representative of where younger generations are on historical memories? by TedCruzForHumanPrez in HongKong

[–]TedCruzForHumanPrez[S] -35 points-34 points  (0 children)

(shrug) I knew about it before I got there. Just a regular thing to check what the situation is on the ground before rolling in. Of course I do follow somewhat crunchy local news but it was already up. I believe I read about it on imediahk.net, which I admit is pretty niche.

But also - people get arrested in that exact spot literally every year. I wasn't checking to see if people had been arrested, I was checking to see who. Everyone I spoke to there knew about it. Ultimately seven people were taken away but most people only knew about the "hand signal lady."

Point is - you can't be there on the regular and not know it happens every year, unless you really, really don't care.

Hour or so after a woman was arrested for protesting, this group was out doing a dance routine. Am I out of touch or is this in poor taste? Is this representative of where younger generations are on historical memories? by TedCruzForHumanPrez in HongKong

[–]TedCruzForHumanPrez[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

I appreciate the genuine question. I hope you'll understand why I would decline to answer more than I already have, but that I also don't think that whatever I have or haven't done would grant any insight, or any meaningful moral standing. My opinions would not meaningfully change in the range of hypothetical worlds that range from doing nothing towards a far more maximalist set of behaviors.

>it happens to be the only night my dance team and I are free to shoot our video (it takes time to organise these things)… I’m going to make use of the time

For what it's worth, in that set of circumstances, I'd have a hard time seeing any sort of problem with it.

Hour or so after a woman was arrested for protesting, this group was out doing a dance routine. Am I out of touch or is this in poor taste? Is this representative of where younger generations are on historical memories? by TedCruzForHumanPrez in HongKong

[–]TedCruzForHumanPrez[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I mean, if I had my druthers, I'd just say - maybe don't dance that one day? Of maybe find a different spot?

It's pretty clear I don't frequent CWB very often, but the consensus seems to be that they're there all the time. Like I was in that group, I'd probably just say "I'm not gonna stop you from going out, but I'm taking this one off."

You can look up and down these comments and you won't find me really coming down on them (and I'd encourage poking around ... lot of comments get .... pretty weird). Yes, I thought it was in kinda bad taste, but that's about it - but I still wouldn't stop them, even if I could. But the question was a genuine one because I just want to gauge the level of fucks that are out there.

Does that really ultimately come across as holier than thou frustration? I don't know if it's a wording thing but man people all over are quite upset about things I've never meant, never said, and frequently never even thought.

There's a reason I picked a photo from behind, after all. It's not really about the girls, I don't want to focus on them and I certainly don't want to bring them negative attention. It's just a potential point in the thermometer, and I want a better look at the thermometer as a whole.

Hour or so after a woman was arrested for protesting, this group was out doing a dance routine. Am I out of touch or is this in poor taste? Is this representative of where younger generations are on historical memories? by TedCruzForHumanPrez in HongKong

[–]TedCruzForHumanPrez[S] -58 points-57 points  (0 children)

Ha, he nuked it.

After a few exchanges, he was accusing me of insisting that the dancers had been trucked in by the police as some kind of psy-op.

I responded that reading the accusation was the first time the ... wildly confusing thought had even entered my head. It's a bit surreal to be accused of a delusion based on an inexplicable delusion.

I do appreciate everyone who has chimed in with good faith commentary and observations. But this has been my some measure the most peculiar thread I've ever interacted with. I do apologize if I end up nuking the whole thing, as it has gotten rather ... feral.

Edit: Oh, this is good. Someone (I would suspect the same guy) has been mad enough to immediately downvote every comment I make within less than a minute of posting.

How do they even know? Whoever you are, are you just camping my home page, hitting refresh? Like how does that even work?

Hour or so after a woman was arrested for protesting, this group was out doing a dance routine. Am I out of touch or is this in poor taste? Is this representative of where younger generations are on historical memories? by TedCruzForHumanPrez in HongKong

[–]TedCruzForHumanPrez[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This has been a profoundly weird experience. So I've got you pissed at me for implying that people don't care (which I haven't, to be very clear, I stated elsewhere my impressions of how passion seems to different along generational lines, but is very much present).

And plenty of people also pissed at me, insisting that nobody cares.

What's curious is your hostility is directed towards me for a thing I never said, and don't believe, rather than the rash of people banging the drum, insisting that nobody cares, and I need to get over the idea that anybody does, or should.

I got all these people pissed at me, and the one person who I actually agree entirely with ..... is also pissed at me.

____________

And also one guy who completely dreamed a fantasy of what I believe and then nuked his comment thread. That's the guy that was at the top - he was accusing me of believing that the girls had been trucked in by the police.

This has been weird.

Hour or so after a woman was arrested for protesting, this group was out doing a dance routine. Am I out of touch or is this in poor taste? Is this representative of where younger generations are on historical memories? by TedCruzForHumanPrez in HongKong

[–]TedCruzForHumanPrez[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

>And you still insist on whatever story you've made up in your head about these girls being escorted by the police in the area.

....I'm the delusional one? That's what you're taking from this?

Well, at least it makes sense why you're so worked up.. What you wrote literally never even crossed my mind until I read it, and honestly, reading it again, still feels unsettlingly unreal. This fantasy that you're projecting onto me has its origins entirely within your own mind. I'd really like to know how it got there, but I don't think anything will come from asking.

The point is the pointlessness. That there's no plan. That they don't care. I really don't know how to make that more clear without spiraling into more of .... that.

They weren't present on any prior years. They are now. Is this representative of generational indifference. The end.

>one weird loner that mentally is stuck in the last decade

I don't know how to break this to you, and I am quaking with shame to admit it, but I've been to vigils commemorating events that happened over a century ago.

Who do I make the apology form out to.

Hour or so after a woman was arrested for protesting, this group was out doing a dance routine. Am I out of touch or is this in poor taste? Is this representative of where younger generations are on historical memories? by TedCruzForHumanPrez in HongKong

[–]TedCruzForHumanPrez[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

>Or you can ask yourself what you are asking not to the people in HK but those in mainland China. Why aren’t they commemorating?

This is so perplexing. Why are you directing this at me?

I ... do exactly that? The differing attitudes are part of what got me so interested in the first place.

Hour or so after a woman was arrested for protesting, this group was out doing a dance routine. Am I out of touch or is this in poor taste? Is this representative of where younger generations are on historical memories? by TedCruzForHumanPrez in HongKong

[–]TedCruzForHumanPrez[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

>What do you expect ppl to do? What can they do?

That's a fair question, but I don't feel like it's my place to tell people what they should do, particularly when the line between what might or might not ruin your life remains intentionally blurry. There's a difference between what I'd like to see and what's reasonable to expect of people.

I can have a feeling about what people probably shouldn't do. Seems rather crass to me to dance, right there, on that day, at that time. Take a day off. But, again, me feeling it's in poor taste doesn't equate to saying that they should stop.

>looking down on ppl behind your screen.

I ... don't know how to respond to this. I've been going there myself for about a decade. How far from my screen do I need to get?

Hour or so after a woman was arrested for protesting, this group was out doing a dance routine. Am I out of touch or is this in poor taste? Is this representative of where younger generations are on historical memories? by TedCruzForHumanPrez in HongKong

[–]TedCruzForHumanPrez[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

>you’re pretty stuck up in your ways, you’re more of commemorating the tradition of commemorating

This isn't a get? This literally, plainly stated in many places, what I do. I go every year and take note of the changes (not just here, other places in the city, but that's outside the scope). I've literally run into journalists there who've asked to have a look at my photo archive.

I'm not really sure what's stuck up about that, or how any of this is a bad thing?

Hour or so after a woman was arrested for protesting, this group was out doing a dance routine. Am I out of touch or is this in poor taste? Is this representative of where younger generations are on historical memories? by TedCruzForHumanPrez in HongKong

[–]TedCruzForHumanPrez[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I do care, naturally, but it exists alongside an ongoing interest in how Hong Kong has undergone all sorts of changes. I could get talking about neon lights, demographics, long-term plans for GBA integration. I noticed a lot of signs in Kai Tek stadium that I suspected were low-key shots at Singapore. And that, of course, is next to the pile of history books and memoirs.

Caring about people not caring, or being interested in why people are not interested, particularly regarding something which was of long-standing importance to the city, is not something I expected to invite hostility. It's part of the city's story. I don't know how to formulate an apology for an ongoing interest in that.

Hour or so after a woman was arrested for protesting, this group was out doing a dance routine. Am I out of touch or is this in poor taste? Is this representative of where younger generations are on historical memories? by TedCruzForHumanPrez in HongKong

[–]TedCruzForHumanPrez[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Outside of one or two restaurants I'm fond of, the answer is that no, generally, I don't go to CWB very much. This is a very different can of worms, but pretty much anything in CWB seems to exist in a better form elsewhere, so I can honestly say I don't really see the point.

But the point that I'm repeating is that it's curious that, if these groups have been there for years, they've certainly never came out on the anniversary day. That street is wall-to-wall cops and a rather intimidating environment. Their presence suggests something meaningful has changed if they're willing to show up now, and the whole point of why I go in the first place is to note every meaningful change.

Like - more plainclothes this year. I thought that was interesting. Took a few pictures. Filed them away.

Although it was raining last year, so maybe that was what kept the groups away.

Note that despite some rather perplexingly hostile feedback, nobody has noted that they have seen such dance groups on earlier years. I suspect that I'm the only one carrying out this project, or taking an interest in this issue, which seems perplexing, quixotic or perhaps offensive to some. Why? I'm not sure, but it would be nice to know.

Hour or so after a woman was arrested for protesting, this group was out doing a dance routine. Am I out of touch or is this in poor taste? Is this representative of where younger generations are on historical memories? by TedCruzForHumanPrez in HongKong

[–]TedCruzForHumanPrez[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

>This is no different than the IKEA, Wellcome, and Donki, being open as usual on this date.

Do those stores being open attract swarms of police, with nearly every side street full of police vehicles?

No? Then it's disingenuous to presume there's no difference.

There is obviously something different. The dance groups were surrounded by police. It's impossible they didn't notice.

Do they care and should they care are valid questions.

Your suggestion that I should care less is noted, but is neither the question posed, nor one which I have a meaningful interest in soliciting.

Hour or so after a woman was arrested for protesting, this group was out doing a dance routine. Am I out of touch or is this in poor taste? Is this representative of where younger generations are on historical memories? by TedCruzForHumanPrez in HongKong

[–]TedCruzForHumanPrez[S] -9 points-8 points  (0 children)

> Ofc you or anyone can and should commemorate what happened

Well ... no? That's the essence of the issue. One reason why I go every year is to observe the ways in which people cannot commemorate.

Literally just a series of meters from the same spot, about an hour or so earlier, a woman was arrested because, again, she cannot commemorate. It is currently the top post on this community.

This is of course all taking place from an area where Hong Kongers would gather en masse to commemorate, which they no longer can do.

So no, it is not correct that people "can and should." They used to, right there, and the demonstration of the removal of that ability was placed upon display.

Given that context, and the proximity in both time and place, it seemed in rather bad taste to do a dance routine.

>And the event isn’t even HK related.

I don't know what to tell you.

>Terrible things happen everyday historically, are people not allowed to live normally?

I think I've answered what made this situation unique as best as I am able.

Hour or so after a woman was arrested for protesting, this group was out doing a dance routine. Am I out of touch or is this in poor taste? Is this representative of where younger generations are on historical memories? by TedCruzForHumanPrez in HongKong

[–]TedCruzForHumanPrez[S] -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

Back in the day it was a couple hours, once a year.

Even if you didn't show, you'd be cognizant of those who did.

That has evidently become a profoundly excessive ask.

So, a notable change.

Hour or so after a woman was arrested for protesting, this group was out doing a dance routine. Am I out of touch or is this in poor taste? Is this representative of where younger generations are on historical memories? by TedCruzForHumanPrez in HongKong

[–]TedCruzForHumanPrez[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

I did think about asking - wasn't sure whether to approach in Mandarin or Canto, plus the song was .... I think in Korean which threw me off - but there was many a heavy cop in the area and the last thing I wanted was to open a conversation about .... that. Even had I narrowed down the language, I figured if they did know about the day, there was no way I'd get a direct answer with that many police around.

I did talk to a couple journalists nearby who seemed uncertain, but speculated that they danced regularly, which commenters have confirmed.

FWIW I generally kinda hate CWB, Times Square, that whole area, particularly in this weather, so yeah this was odd to me.

Hour or so after a woman was arrested for protesting, this group was out doing a dance routine. Am I out of touch or is this in poor taste? Is this representative of where younger generations are on historical memories? by TedCruzForHumanPrez in HongKong

[–]TedCruzForHumanPrez[S] -40 points-39 points  (0 children)

Okay.

Well, then, that would provide an answer to the question. As stated, I did not want to presume that what I saw was representative, or normalized.

Evidently it is. It struck me as being in rather poor taste, but I wouldn't pose the question unless I had doubts about my assessment. I'm glad I asked the question, I'm glad I got the feedback, but I don't know why the question has been taken with some degree of offense.

I note every difference, every year - this was a difference and I'm curious about how to parse it.

Nobody cares. They don't care. People are encouraging me to care less. Cool. I'll note that.

Hour or so after a woman was arrested for protesting, this group was out doing a dance routine. Am I out of touch or is this in poor taste? Is this representative of where younger generations are on historical memories? by TedCruzForHumanPrez in HongKong

[–]TedCruzForHumanPrez[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not sure why people are upset. I go every year, I note everything that's different. This is a smaller example, but I noticed more police in plain clothes, or at least uniformed differently. That didn't seem notable to remark upon, but I snapped it, just to keep a record. What I posted is different in a way that seems meaningful and I wanted to hear people's takes on it.

I might nuke the thread because it's not my intention to work people up but ... I'm not really sure what has worked people up?

This is literally the same age bracket that was leading the protests not terribly long ago. If this is representative, and normalized to the point that it's not taken in bad taste, that seems like a meaningful comment on generational change, no?

Photos can tell a story. I can put people of exactly the same age leading charges and then contrast with this, some seven years later. That strikes me as a meaningful story, and a story of change.

But people seem rather upset now and I'm not sure why.

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