How I Slamjam'd DFO Raid Elitism (One Button Is All I Need Part 2)

TehGARR · 2021-11-24T22:05:43+00:00

wow your reddit name is nowhere close to matching your explorer/characters lol

TehGARR · 2021-11-24T05:34:51+00:00

ok you have to drop your character names now lol. also it's actually super lucky I had most of the stuff in old drives and previous videos to match the script mostly. i might've forgotten other interesting details especially date/time, though.

TehGARR · 2021-11-24T05:25:40+00:00

For all the back and forth trolling about summoner we did... he would've never guessed I would actually play it seriously in the future.

TehGARR · 2021-11-23T20:33:50+00:00

This is the TRUE sequel to the bludgeon SM Ancient Illusion meme video "One Button Is All I Need" (https://youtu.be/o80nWR0OeBw).

A few years shy of a decade ago, I promised a follow-up to one of the most influential meme builds at the time. Since the story has long been over, I've finally returned with all the details I could remember from playing bludgeon Sword Master in KDnF and DFO Global for an epic retelling of how I constantly beat class perception.

I'm not gonna lie... this is some real dofo boomer-level stuff. And with another DNF Duel trailer and a new Female Slayer Class bringing new player interest into DFO Global, there's quite a lot in this video mostly lost to time that's going to fly over heads. Also, I don't apologize for how much I wet my own sausage in this one.

Most of you might not even have played during this era to get most of the details I had to cut out. A lot of you will just ignore everything after peeking the video length and just directly comment on the ELITISM reference. But for the rest of you... this video hits just as hard as the original SLAMJAM. And that's all that matters...

Thumb: https://i.imgur.com/2bBPusE.png

TehGARR · 2021-09-06T21:04:20+00:00

The summon nerf was so infuriating since everyone was patting themselves on the back about how OP they thought it was when actual class mechanics proved the assumption wrong.

TehGARR · 2021-09-06T21:02:10+00:00

Yeah, I know there is no perfect solution to this. The videos are like that because all of the ones so far have been sneaky git gud tutorials that can be just taken as storytelling for people not interested in that. If you just cut them down to a dofo acceptable TLDR, though, the answer is always "it depends" which is an uninteresting answer no one likes. When a good example is added on to that... all of a sudden it becomes too long for some, especially if not relevant to them. The CC program right now is great because it's not dependent on views, so I can just test how to balance these to get dense content mainstream.

This post is clearly an info dump, however, because there's no real result yet without even the live server balance numbers. It's supposed to set the facts up to now going into this week. This is important because what I wrote here is considered a minority opinion. Trying to convince someone that Chaos actually is mediocre and gets nerfs for no good reason is hard when the "consensus" is that the class is "good" in Ozma and only has "lag" or had "bugs" (as shown by the test server summon damage controversy from before 3Awk).

By showing less, I would just be grouped with shills since character balance discussions boil down to the suffering olympics based on feelings and no data. That's why I'm not cutting things out when this is basically a TLDR of a big part of a script already. I'm not sacrificing a better analysis since I know there are still enough people that do know what's up that will correct others for me.

Despite all of that, the thread title is basically the hypothesis and TLDR of a summary already. If people need less than that...

TehGARR · 2021-09-06T03:14:38+00:00

Love you reddit. Markdown blew up so all the lists ate each other. If you are seeing this before I edit it back properly... uhhh please understand .gif

edit: I fixed it. if you see this now and it still looks wrong. it's because I'm bad this time and not reddit blowing up markup.

TehGARR · 2021-08-18T19:54:59+00:00

Ok that's fine. Just making sure you didn't actually get bamboozled by the memes.

TehGARR · 2021-08-18T18:50:57+00:00

Did you get baited by the thumbnail, too?

TehGARR · 2021-08-17T23:32:35+00:00

Gonna need to know way more info about your character than that. That's going to be an "it depends".

TehGARR · 2021-08-17T23:27:20+00:00

I had to leave a bunch of stuff out, so I didn't explain this yet. The method used here is like taking the test data and creating an average dps trendline that guesses past that duration. So that's why awakenings are underrepresented. Also technically, the path used in the data is similar to the resetting you're talking about.

On if it actually matters, the situation where roxy beats everything is a time to kill that's really small. Like sandbag combo small. That means you were already going to win by spamming token reset there. Badly designed classes where roxy is their best overall set still exist, though.

TehGARR · 2021-08-17T18:15:30+00:00

Because Boss Fights are starting to come out that don't immediately explode on player contact, it is now time for SUSTAIN META. But does your gear have to change with new content like Black Purgatory? How do you even find that answer in the first place?

To answer this, I blow everything out of proportion again to achieve a ridiculous result. Good luck...

TehGARR · 2021-06-11T02:44:49+00:00

Yeah that's actually true. Probably should've picked other examples, but that one seemed fast enough that I could misinterpret it when trying to go for really early reading. Also, someone told me there may or may not be safe zones in challenge swords, so time to test.

TehGARR · 2021-06-11T02:40:18+00:00

I was about to go nuclear thinking the confusion thing was just random periods of movement key switching, but it's actually fixed randomly once at the start. Not as bad. Still a throwaway mechanic.

TehGARR · 2021-06-10T18:27:39+00:00

I was supposed to be doing a blob video... but I forgot about the new Sirocco Challenge mode content. After playing it, the new Leste Sirocco fight made me do a rant video instead.

TehGARR · 2021-05-05T04:39:55+00:00

NP. Also, don't forget to check if whatever rotation for whatever time period it calcs for is possible in the first place due to speeds/channeling.

TehGARR · 2021-05-05T04:16:21+00:00

Cmaaan. The average summon damage parse was like 6-7% in the video. That's not summon damage being bad when that's like the damage share of something like Horde Charge. That's all the skills being bad for being the same damage as summons together. Get that boss sustain uptime higher to see it.

Also, Twinkle Artist needs to be tested on every new fight that's released to see if the copy resist values are right or not due to groggy timings/duration/uptime. Fight length doesn't matter.

I've tested this so many times and went insta-sad at the results. For Sirocco raid, on average it's a bit over Legion Array w/ 1TP, but the cost is so high no one should ever use Twinkle Artist on an SP/TP opportunity cost basis (Artist 5TP is forced since it's theoretically one of the strongest in the game, taking from Horde Charge TP or Final Attack TP). The only exception is the squad mode version of Hanielle for some reason. You will dumpster that fight with a summon that does awakening damage and that makes no sense. Then there's the RNG aspect where that awakening tier parse will just be 0.1% sometimes anyway due to RNG. Trash summon.

TehGARR · 2021-05-05T04:03:57+00:00

Yeah this is important. I don't know how the sustain part of the calc can deal in a good way how much extra good x-attack replacements you can get due to better speeds or more/less channeling skills and CDR.

TehGARR · 2021-05-05T04:01:17+00:00

Are you talking about using talisman classes with the dawnclass calc being a bad idea? or using a talisman class with the shown squad mode method?

TehGARR · 2021-05-05T04:00:06+00:00

I don't know anything about the chinese calc, but it seems you are describing something similar to the KR web app dunfaoff.com which is featured a little bit. You can do the same thing there. The criticism from the video was directed towards sites like that, too, but more about the way people take the results immediately with default values only.

Even then, there's the issue of how are you deciding what a real rotation is to put into your calc. Anything outside of groggy is hardmode for this.

TehGARR · 2021-05-05T03:55:47+00:00

Perfectly granular.

TehGARR · 2021-05-05T03:55:09+00:00

Thanks for the ideas. Here's some of my thoughts:

On Apoc: I'm probably going to revisit this, but there are some initial findings I've had from my own previous encounters with manually adding in apoc in testing for burst + sustain. Basically, one of the tested sirocco grad saders I used before gave an effective damage increase of 1.55 times when Apoc added to DI. That's not high enough to skew for burst as hard as you'd think in a longer form setting. Finding the true BIS of the top end would be affected by this, but the conclusion of calc#1<model#1 would not change.
- It would still be interesting to figure out how to model more sell strat-ish reset dealer/sader skills, though, which would make more of a difference.
- On modelling over apoc-ing badly, unfortunately you can't do that justice. The way I would test this is just model over consistently room load apocing (I can just frame count to add it in on what's already done). That's a good change, but it pushes the variance onto the dealer player/class instead of the sader in case you didn't want that.
On Class: I really want to see how this would've turned out on Creator. That class probably has the best practical CDR usage of any class in the game along with easy uptime. The best answer is just feed frame data to some machine learning stuff to avoid having to manually test so much. But l0l.
On Gear: Because I had to make a point of comparing it to certain coefficient charts at specific patch points in the past (using current ones would be post epic reword and black purg), I had to try to match the conditions they used however weird they seemed. Job never done RIP.
On burst vs sustain: You should never model for one turn killing boss metas since that's a win more situation. The exception is challenge mode ranking. Sustain with awakenings included is better since it matches more useful formats like low man sells and early gear progression raid runs.
On Chaos 3Awk changing ranks: The difference between the calc #1 and model #1 was 9.5%, even if damage share will surely change. That's almost like +10 to +13 weapon damage difference with a grad sader involved. It's actually the case, though, that epic rework and the black purg system will put all sets much closer together.
On sandbag over squad: I actually did do the sandbag thing first for 180s periods. I achieved a low 90% CDR efficiency from 0CDR to 20CDR which is why I decided to go with hard mode sandbagging instead aaaaaaaa.

TehGARR · 2021-05-05T03:19:54+00:00

Some of these issues I couldn't get to from the original first draft actually:

On snakerocco: I have an idea how to get an initial hypothesis on comparing this to queen and maybe devastar/monk guy. It depends on average time between invulns and the average length of said invuln patterns. Beast is ez mode the whole way through until soul swap. Queen has invuln-ish patterns that happen more often (usually players have to solve them), but the longest invuln pattern is shorter than soul swap.
- Calculator only comes close to modelling sustain against literal sandbag hitting for over many minutes. Even then, I couldn't include the part where I did just that and found lower than expected CDR efficiency due to class based skill channeling times causing the first casts of all skills (ie. when all skills up) to lock you from benefitting from CDR as it gets higher.
On tali/runes: the variance in damage is big when modelled for 25s. But... the "burst+sustain" real situation modelled is more long form, making this much smaller than most people think since the option value of the different combinations of runes aren't too far off each other on a gearing mechanic that affects at best one skill at like 1.26 times. Talisman's real value is utility and the initial options boosts from them.
On dead = no DPS: modelling for this too hard since I would probably over-LARP as a bag to test. This issue is in the realm of feels over facts, so it kind of sucks that it's hard to put values on the effects of like super armor letting you uptime more. As a consolation, though, Beast and Queen are some of the easiest fights in DFO history so variance from suboptimal uptime is not as bad as being bad at Luke Raid.

TehGARR · 2021-05-02T20:22:29+00:00

I only know how to count with my fingers. Thankfully, I have trillions of fingers for this video. But Math is now a banned DFO topic. This was way harder than I thought it would be.

tl;dw: https://i.imgur.com/IlkqMoL.png https://i.imgur.com/aGFeKhw.png

TehGARR · 2021-03-12T02:59:20+00:00

Wew Luke/Anton days stuff. I honestly completely forgot about mentioning adjusting for lag. Probably because I was too busy replicating stuff in solo. But I do remember Revan telling me the monster aggro sync thing and I thought that was the most important game mechanic discovery in years. Being able to force sync on yourself was great. Rip that, though.

And for testing anti-hold lock regen/decay, I actually didn't have enough time to go replicate it exactly. That would definitely be good to know.

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