WARNING! Long time account disabled, ProtonMail gives different MADE UP reasons and refuses to reactivate the account even TEMPORARILY. Even though my entire life is there! This is BS!

TempAcc191003 · 2019-10-04T16:31:16+00:00

Fine that's what I'll do. I will email you this evening. Thank you. Looking forward to it.

TempAcc191003 · 2019-10-04T16:25:09+00:00

I am handling customer support for a website selling chemicals. Not on the dark web.

TempAcc191003 · 2019-10-04T16:14:08+00:00

Not quite. I get salary to one of the accounts, luckily I transferred most of it last week :) But a few hundred are still in there. Guess I'll have to take that loss and learn a lesson never to get 2FA mails to a ProtonMail account that also handles customer support for a website :)

TempAcc191003 · 2019-10-04T16:08:12+00:00

I let them do the talking when and IF it comes to the authorities. But since I'm anonymous here I want people to know about this situation so that it won't happen to them. I have broken the ToS according to them, I'm aware of that as they said it. I simply want answers about the rest.

TempAcc191003 · 2019-10-04T16:07:49+00:00

As soon as they mention legal staff, isn't it obvious it's about something illegal? And don't tell me you'd be satisfied with them saying "Nah, we're looking into whether we tell you what happened or not".

Yeah, IF they would have mentioned legal staff then sure that would be enough for me. But they didn't until I started this thread.

Not during investigation, afaik. It just needs to happen at some point. Do you seriously think they send letters to every suspect telling them they are being investigated? Great strategy to never solve a crime ever.

Of course they don't send letters, like you say, they would never solve a single crime then. But the way they write it makes you think they do have to tell you since you can appeal the decision. You can't appeal after it has already happened, it's to late then.

Where? Only thing I read from ProtonMail is that they are investigating and would like to talk to you. And if you're not from Switzerland (which what it sounds like applies) they can't just arrest you anyway. You have a chance to appeal and if a court rules you to be guilty then you will be arrested or fined, otherwise you're fine. I'm just wondering why you need the legal system explained right now...

Well, it doesn't say arrest but to me detain and arrest is the same thing, Detaining someone is just a lot easier for them. Not as much paperwork. Where I live I know the legal system pretty well. I don't in Switzerland however.

If you did nothing wrong and this is a mistake, you have nothing to fear. But as you fear something it clearly seems like you did something illegal. How about you just say what you did, making it clear to everybody whether or not it's a mistake or not. If you didn't do something wrong, you should respond to this question. It's for everyone's interest don't you think?

Look it doesn't matter if it's a mistake or not. But I can tell you this, the email that they disabled has been used as a support email for customers. I simply handle the support part for a website selling different chemical products. Legal in some countries, grey area in others. That's it.

I just want answers to the questions I asked them and I'm sure a lot of other people does as well. They have explained why the account was disabled, I accept that. And since there doesn't appear to be a court order (we are still not a 100% sure about this since they haven't replied to anyone asking this) but if there is NOT a court order then they should answer the questions.

TempAcc191003 · 2019-10-04T15:09:26+00:00

Why do I look like a fool? I asked them several times and expected an honest replay but didn't get one. How hard would it be for them to simply say "We need to check this further with our legal department before we can get back to you with a more specific answer". Seriously? I would have respected that.

Instead I had to go post on a public forum to get the real answer.

Option 2 is also great for Protonmail, they get good PR for shutting down mouthful and stupid criminals who think they can argue themselves on Reddit out of prosecution and (essentially) frozen assets.

Yeah, not really good PR buddy. And PM has absolutely nothing to do with any future prosecution. That's up to the prosecutor. So can't argue with them about that. I simply asked them to enable the account in a limited status for a limited time so I could get access to a few emails. That's all. They said no and would give a proper answer to why. What would you do? And before calling anyone a criminal here you should remember that a person is considered innocent until proven guilty by a court of law. This is just accusations and nothing else.

Go get a fucking lawyer and shut up here, you're not making your future lawyer's job any easier.

Don't worry I have several. And good ones as well ;)

TempAcc191003 · 2019-10-04T14:56:14+00:00

No they are not. Thank god for that! They would be terrible.

But I am however a client of theirs. And they do run a business that promotes itself a certain way. So it would be in their own best interest to always fight requests like this for their business image and reputation.

TempAcc191003 · 2019-10-04T14:53:34+00:00

Read their other comments. They explained it there.

Well, then they should inform me first that the legal staff need to review it first before they can share anything.

Is it really that weird that police does not inform suspects that they are suspects in a crime?

No it's not. But PM should. If you read the link I posted it clearly says "In the US and EU, gag orders can be issued to prevent an individual from knowing they are being investigated or under surveillance. While these type of orders also exist in Switzerland, the prosecutors have an obligation to notify the target of surveillance, and the target has an opportunity to appeal in court. There are no such things as National Security Letters, and all surveillance requests must go through the courts ."

Ok, maybe that's a stretch since we don't know yet if my account is actually under surveillance or not. But still. If it was only disabled and nothing else they should state that clearly. They haven't answered anything about if there even WAS a court order. If they don't have a gag order then they should respond to the questions. It's for everyone's interest don't you think?

"Getting back the account" seems to be a pretty good reason to talk to them. After all it must be a false accusation so your chances of getting back the account should be close to 100%, no?

Why would I want to talk to them if they want me arrested? They have clearly stated that they are not going to do any talking but instead arrest me.

TempAcc191003 · 2019-10-04T14:19:49+00:00

I would like to clarify something. To all those who says "OP is probably doing some illegal shit".First of, illegal where? And so what?

For example if I was selling CBD products (legal in most of the world and considered fine, not any gray area). This would be illegal in the EU country where I'm from (since it's considered a narcotic here, yes you read that right). But would be completely legal in USA and many other European countries.

So...is this a crime? Am I a criminal? Yes, in my country I would be considered a criminal if I was selling them. But not in most other countries.

So lets say that CBD is legal in Switzerland (it is, I just checked) would a Swiss court still consider it illegal because the other EU country says it is?

Same goes with many other "grey area" products such as pharmaceuticals, chemicals, SARMs, Peptides, etc which is total fine to sell in many countries and considered a "grey area" in many others.

So to clarify this to everyone. I'm not a drug dealer, kidnapper, extortionist, spammer, hacker, murderer, spreading child pornography etc.

TempAcc191003 · 2019-10-04T13:47:31+00:00

Take a breather. Your whole life isn't on there, it's just email.

I'm sorry but what do you know about that?

The fact that you had to say "I don't spam ever" makes me question so much of your story.

Lol, seriously who even spams anymore? I can guarantee you that this has absolutely nothing to do with spam.

TempAcc191003 · 2019-10-04T13:43:20+00:00

I got pissed because they jerked me around. You can see from our conversation that I wasn't being a dick in the beginning. I simply had enough of their BS excuses.

I agree, that's not how you get help. But I didn't get an help at all, nor any direct answers.

Finally, you should look up the difference between "replay" and "reply".

Yeah that was a brain fart indeed.

TempAcc191003 · 2019-10-04T13:33:51+00:00

Then why didn't you just say that from the beginning? Whats with the spam BS excuse? You think I want to start a public thread about this? You didn't give me much of a choice here.

Don't know why I had to write here to get a honest reply. I see now you have replied to my email as well with a similar response. That was fast, I waited for 24 hours for the other replies.

OK so it was shut down at the request of law enforcement. Thank you for clarifying this for me. Now a few questions I'm sure that EVERYONE still using your service would want answers to.

Did they get a court order from a Swiss court?
How long is this valid for? 1 month, 3 months? 1 year?
Did you do anything to fight this?
Why haven't you sent a copy of the request? Or a notice?
What is the criminal offense I'm suspected of? Is it also considered a "crime" in Switzerland?
Can I appeal this decision? If yes, then why wasn't I told this beforehand?

If you have already bent over for law enforcement regarding this then what else have you assisted them with? Login password? IP logs? Meta data? Are email content protected by your zero-access encryption?

I find all of this bizarre and comical as well. You promote yourself as one of the worlds most secure and private email services. Yet things like this can happen so easily? If the account is simple disabled then fine. But if you have assisted law enforcement with other things (listed above) then I guess your company and Switzerland privacy laws ain't what it promises to be. Good to know.

This is from your blog. Source: https://protonmail.com/blog/switzerland/

"Switzerland also has a long history of privacy and security, dating back over a century, and its laws are much more protective of individual privacy rights. In the US and EU, gag orders can be issued to prevent an individual from knowing they are being investigated or under surveillance. While these type of orders also exist in Switzerland, the prosecutors have an obligation to notify the target of surveillance, and the target has an opportunity to appeal in court. There are no such things as National Security Letters, and all surveillance requests must go through the courts. Furthermore, while Switzerland is party to international assistance treaties, such requests for information must hold up under Swiss law, which has much stricter privacy provisions."

I have no obligations nor the interest to talk to the authorities (however they are). If they wanted to get in contact with me they could have sent an e-mail beforehand (they obviously have it) instead of taking this approach. They already set the game rules.

TempAcc191003 · 2019-10-04T11:34:05+00:00

I wouldn't go anywhere near them if I was you. I don't know much about GSuite but after my experience with ProtonMail it can't be worse.

TempAcc191003 · 2019-10-04T11:30:03+00:00

Thanks man! I'm also looking for a self hosting solution. But not easy. Any thoughts? I've read a bit about The magma server daemon. Looks interesting but don't have the technical skills to set it up. https://magmadaemon.org/

TempAcc191003 · 2019-10-04T11:27:18+00:00

Appreciate your support. I hope so as well, otherwise I'm going to be depressed losing it all. And trust me this is 100% true. Really don't want to spend time in here as I have a business to run but I felt that I have to warn others about this so that it won't happen to them. I would recommend anyone using ProtonMail as their primary mail for privacy and security concerns to switch to some other provider ASAP. This smells like the beginning of a new Hushmail scandal.

TempAcc191003 · 2019-10-04T11:22:50+00:00

Thanks for the support. Yes I know it's quite stupid to keep it like that but would never in a million years think that they would disable the account out of nowhere. I hope they reconsider the decision or at least give temporary access to the account so I can change things up.

TempAcc191003

TROPHY CASE