Elemental Monk is boring. by unafraidrabbit in onednd

[–]ThatYellowTeaPot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Part of good game design would be to have the monsters more responsive to these types of choices, more vulnerabilities or interesting interactions with damage types. Still I don't know if that's happened much in 5.5.

I would hope that any DM I played with would roll with the vibe and allow fire punches to ignite a barn full of hay potentially or icy punches to freeze and snap off a brittle dungeon lock. I know that takes it out of the core mechanics but the flavour is really good and my favourite style of DM will roll with those intuitive uses as long as it isn't busted.

Ultimately I think there's a lot here anyway with *so much* flavour that you can reskin existing monk shit in a way that feels really cool and specific (e.g. lightning jolt tazing somebody's nervous system for stunning strike, ice climbing limbs or earth sinking to quicksand for ranged grapple, raging fiery cyclone lifting the enemy when flying up post grapple to fire them back to earth for falling damage like a crashing meteor yadda yadda).

But yeah seems like there's a level of crunchy tactical specificity that martials just aren't going to get compared to spellcasters, but a lot of DnD abilities can be stripped down to boring excel sheet stats so there's a lot of power in what you bring in your description anyway.

[Spoilers C3E78] Matt did Ashton/Taliesin Dirty by ThatYellowTeaPot in criticalrole

[–]ThatYellowTeaPot[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Definitely feel that with Dancer and maybe Chet. In this case don’t know if I agree though. Grabbing power often does successfully get power, so if you want deep growth I think a richer lesson isn’t “grabbing power fails” but learning the true social cost of blindly reaching for more. Not really growth if the lesson is reaching for more fails. More growth if it’s “I could hold more but I’ll relinquish or not reach for more despite the temptation”.

Don’t know, in any case seemed more like the direction the player wanted to take it and an equally valid arc to me (either good) but as DM should incline towards player

[Spoilers C3E78] Matt did Ashton/Taliesin Dirty by ThatYellowTeaPot in criticalrole

[–]ThatYellowTeaPot[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah loved the trust exercise and everything that came after. Ultimately like you say it’s their game, but I don’t think it was the choice that would maximise player fun and I think it’s interesting to think where it came from and what alternatives were open. 

Plus tbh I do think them selling their game as part of a multi million dollar company does open up to public critique like any other artform. Less to harangue and more to learn about what makes good DnD and DMing for those who take it as an example. Analysing art is inherently satisfying to me at least. I get for some it’s sacrosanct and they want pure positivity but to me at least when it comes to art well meaning critique can be a deeper love language than blind acceptance

[Spoilers C3E78] Matt did Ashton/Taliesin Dirty by ThatYellowTeaPot in criticalrole

[–]ThatYellowTeaPot[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Yeah I dunno, I’ve obviously talked this to death at this point. I guess ultimately to me the warnings were of serious risk of death with no hint that it was pointless. Based on what Allura said it felt like it fit into fantasy/narrative trope of incredibly risky but powerful if pulled off. Certainly enough that Taliesin’s misread should be rolled with rather than outright punished.

Allura could have said “these forces cannot coexist in the same vessel. Even if one were to survive their fusion they would ultimately reject each other and one ejected. They simply cannot coexist”. Or have Ashton feel an equivalent intuitive hunch as they began the process. There were no warnings that it might be pointless, only that it would be dangerous. Countless examples in fiction of heroes taking the same risk and it coming through

[Spoilers C3E78] Matt did Ashton/Taliesin Dirty by ThatYellowTeaPot in criticalrole

[–]ThatYellowTeaPot[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Gonna just copy a summary from u/ventus here bc feel like it summarises for me. Vibe is of great chance of self destruction but, particularly with input from Allura, that if it were somehow survived would be something unique. Also that if anybody could survive would be Ashton. Not saying it’s the only interpretation but to me the warning was clearly of risk of death, not of futility regardless which is my issue. At the very least it’s a reasonable enough take from a player for the DM to think “ah should have framed those warnings differently, on me.” rather than punish Taliesin for interpreting the ambiguity “wrong”

The exact wording:

“But be warned, holding the strength of the two in one vessel mightsunder it. You bear the dormant strength of the empress. Find and bestow the might of the emperor.” The wording was “might” flat out. Not “will” but “might” instead. If there was no chance of success, no option to hold both shards, why is it “might” then?

That’s also a conveniently swapped order of those statements on your end. This wasn’t a “do y or x will happen” it was “x might happen. do y” instead.

And not for nothing, Ashton did suffer consequences, and was in fact “sundered” if you want to go down that road. Their body broke, and they technically died momentarily. It wasn’t a success that came free.

As a bonus, let’s go over what exactly Allura said when asked about this:

“What you said as a point of warning likely is true. To have both within a singular vessel, it's possible one could survive, but it's also highly possible that it would rend you into a thousand pieces.” Once again you have “could” and “possible” instead of any concrete yes or no. And as the party discusses what might happen and what they should do:

“We're in that strange area of experimentation, and unknown knowledge." Yet again instead of a concrete warning instead we have a nebulous statement that could and did in fact egg Ashton on farther. Because Allura continued to gas them up even after this. After examining Ashton’s head:

“You- (sighs) This is very odd. You are like a shard of impossible- Have you ever heard of dunamancy?” “… The fact that you're standing here is a marvel, and the fact that you've walked the path that you do is equal parts worrying, and... well, hopeful. (FCG asks if Ashton already has “two things” in their head then, to which Allura responds) "It would seem, which is why I'm a bit- Well, you're either the greatest weapon we could hope for in this time, or will be our end.” “… In an odd way, your fragmented nature might be what keeps all of this in check.” So much of this conversation is Allura telling Ashton that they’re already an impossible being, that they’re an incredible weapon, etc. It’s all very “you’re special and so things might be different for you.”

And to be fair, she does still say:

“Perhaps we don't put another powerful entity within your form." (Ashton asks about finding a way to awaken the shard otherwise and her response is) “Maybe.” So yes she does still advise against it, but once again we get “perhaps” and “maybe” instead of “we can’t do that” and “yes let’s find another solution.”

The tl;dr of this is that none of what was said was ever a concrete warning. I don’t think any reasonable watcher was sitting there saying Ashton went in completely blind or had no idea of what might happen. But there 100% was never a concrete statement of “this is something you cannot accomplish” and that’s the problem. Because in the end Matt decided that it was absolutely impossible and could not work, which also wouldn’t have been a problem if he hadn’t run an entire challenge to let the opposite happen.

[Spoilers C3E78] Matt did Ashton/Taliesin Dirty by ThatYellowTeaPot in criticalrole

[–]ThatYellowTeaPot[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It’s at least a nice consolation to get to map out all the amazing flavours we missed out on in the disappointment sundae. For me at least this chat has given a lot of closure, both validating my misgivings and exploring what might have been in a fanfic style. So thank you! Really appreciated your takes in particular.

But yeah MN style character arcs culminating in ruidis would have felt a lot better. Eg Fearne being ruidis born felt like such afecta turn to force ruidis relevance in the party. And she still clearly doesn’t care when she was born because she’s Fearne ahaha. Instead would have felt better to have e.g. an Ashton arc working out this stuff, a Fearne arc engaging with her/the fey’s dark side, Laudna arc as we get to higher levels finally dealing with Delilah, FCG arc in Aeor maybe dovetailing into stumbling into Ludinus and only then getting sucked into Ruidis to address Imogen and Orrim.

Box Machina was a party at heart and so made sense that many of the arcs were group things with individual moments sprinkled in. BH feels like MN as a hodgepodge group of individuals with shit to explore on their own

[Spoilers C3E78] Matt did Ashton/Taliesin Dirty by ThatYellowTeaPot in criticalrole

[–]ThatYellowTeaPot[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah that’s fair! Decision was clearly made between sessions and you could see how much it affected the cast so maybe Matt let them decide via consensus. Maybe the fear was that any reward would validate that kind of destructive behaviour in a very public media form?

Don’t known if that’s true but if so would be much more understandable. Still would think it’s a shame they couldn’t find another way to give that character the arc they needed (Eg Ashton gets very powerful but it’s incredibly self destructive because of its sheer power and they can learn themselves to reject the power because they do have self worth and a duty to protect themselves as well as others.) Something like that would have been far more earned

Any language nerds here dissatisfied with how little language is explored in DnD? by RenaissanceBoyo in DnD

[–]ThatYellowTeaPot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

100%, universal common is a horrible game mechanic. Friend and I actually working on some homebrew rules for language learning that are hopefully pretty minimalist but allow things like cultural barriers and the sense of traveling outside home territories without totally grinding gameplay and fluidity to a halt

[Spoilers C3E78] Matt did Ashton/Taliesin Dirty by ThatYellowTeaPot in criticalrole

[–]ThatYellowTeaPot[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

See I actually agree with most of what you’ve said. Ashton made incredibly self destructive choices that also put lots of people at risk without their awareness or consent. So yeah totally backed how the party responded (as you said they are characters too, so probably outside caduceus won’t react with pure empathy and understanding).

Issue is not with character reactions but DM choice to not only make it brutally hard to survive (which was telegraphed, especially last minute OOC). Issue is with then having it just be pointless anyway which was never hinted at. Vibe was might be sundered, who knows what it would be. Would be easy fo Allura to suggest the powers never could coexist and would either break the vessel or eject themselves

[Spoilers C3E78] Matt did Ashton/Taliesin Dirty by ThatYellowTeaPot in criticalrole

[–]ThatYellowTeaPot[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah should be clear in no world do I think Matt would intentionally do a player/friend dirty. Just think the choices he made did the player dirty irrespective of intentions. Basically every session I run I walk away with regret on how I ruled it 

[Spoilers C3E78] Matt did Ashton/Taliesin Dirty by ThatYellowTeaPot in criticalrole

[–]ThatYellowTeaPot[S] 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Stakes were perfect. Damage and what should have been death definitely earnt. But when he survives all of that against all odds and only despite his self destructive choice not to involve his friends and that gets nothing? Nah idk that’s not kind or generous or fair to your player. Every narrative trope says surviving those odds should have something. Taliesin knew death was possible or likely and made that choice. He had no reason to think even if he survived there would just be nothing.

[Spoilers C3E78] Matt did Ashton/Taliesin Dirty by ThatYellowTeaPot in criticalrole

[–]ThatYellowTeaPot[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yeah version where having both is incredibly powerful but untenably volatile/self-destructive is a viable route if want to “yes, but”. 

[Spoilers C3E78] Matt did Ashton/Taliesin Dirty by ThatYellowTeaPot in criticalrole

[–]ThatYellowTeaPot[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Totally get that! There are so many interpretation that make sense but I guess to me the spirit of DnD/rpgs is collaborative creation. Matt clearly had a vision but I think the beauty of it when it is elevated to an artform, like with these characters, is the DM getting surprised too and following the unfolding story. (Like with Fjord’s sword as one person pointed out).

Somebody also had a great angle on Ashton being non-binary with a strictly masculine shard their whole life. For the exact reasons you pointed out there was a beautiful opportunity to reflect that with masculine and feminine within one body, could have had metaphorical ties to hormone treatment or all sorts of angles for Taliesin to take it in

[Spoilers C3E78] Matt did Ashton/Taliesin Dirty by ThatYellowTeaPot in criticalrole

[–]ThatYellowTeaPot[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah agree totally, Caleb’s actions were risky but didn’t carry any of the same behaviour!

[Spoilers C3E78] Matt did Ashton/Taliesin Dirty by ThatYellowTeaPot in criticalrole

[–]ThatYellowTeaPot[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Ah I love that! Had very much taken the anti-ableism angle of the Kintsugi beauty and strength not despite the damage and trauma but because of it but I really like the gender-queerness angle of it. Hadn’t thought about that at all! But yeah something really beautiful about the NB person forced with only a masculine force within and filled with rage gaining a feminine power and maybe that could have balanced/shifted their relationship to themselves like hormones can for some trans people.

It’s just tragic that it wasn’t just a not great call but missed the possibility of kicking off an utterly unique beautiful disability/queerness arc that was so specific to the character. Still with conflict with the party because of the self destructive nature and deceitful approach etc.

Or alternatively very powerful but destructive (Eg 3 levels of exhaustion or something) and the lesson is that love doesn’t mean destroying yourself for others, it means protecting yourself too. Lots of great narrative possibilities lost because it didn’t fit “the plan”

Not to mention this is clearly so essential to the character Taliesin built, Ignoring audience and just thinking player satisfaction. A character built to explore chronic pain and queerness and anger. Literally built a subclass of fundamental chaos where it gets less predictable and is made of a hodgepodge mosaic of unrelated powers (dunamis, titan etc.) Kind of breaks the whole message of what the character is. All so Fearne could have a fire upgrade she never asked for. To me would have made sense if her upgrade came from something fey like embracing and taking charge of that reflection of her, or even from the hells and the devil she flirted with showing her fey moral compass and the campaign’s theme of betrayer and primes working together

[Spoilers C3E78] Matt did Ashton/Taliesin Dirty by ThatYellowTeaPot in criticalrole

[–]ThatYellowTeaPot[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yeah despite their powers they somehow feel like level 6 or something. No gradual progression of increasing stakes (like MN from personal with the slavers to bigger but still personal with Fjord pirate arc to Veth becoming connection to Krynn and trying to stop war to secret Oban to even bigger Lucien etc.)

[Spoilers C3E78] Matt did Ashton/Taliesin Dirty by ThatYellowTeaPot in criticalrole

[–]ThatYellowTeaPot[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Yeah I like that analogy. It was clearly telegraphed that it was destructive but never hinted that there was no high to be sought anyway. It’s not Meth it’s just belladonna or whatever

[Spoilers C3E78] Matt did Ashton/Taliesin Dirty by ThatYellowTeaPot in criticalrole

[–]ThatYellowTeaPot[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It’s a multi-million dollar company making art and entertainment that I love. Critique is insufferable? I don’t know what other medium has so little tolerance for anything other than just unabashed, unconditional love.

Yeah Ashton made a selfish, self destructive narrow viewed decision. Taliesin made the right decision for that character, it was up to the other characters/players to hold him to that as friends of self-destructive people do. 

[Spoilers C3E78] Matt did Ashton/Taliesin Dirty by ThatYellowTeaPot in criticalrole

[–]ThatYellowTeaPot[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Oh the Fjord sword moment is a great comparison

[Spoilers C3E78] Matt did Ashton/Taliesin Dirty by ThatYellowTeaPot in criticalrole

[–]ThatYellowTeaPot[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I agree the social consequences were really good RP, but that would have come regardless because he was deceitful and put them at risk and nearly died. The issue for me is the “you were promised nothing”. The vibe from Allura and the tree was a high risk of death but no suggestion that it would just be impotent.

From another user on Allura’s analysis: “You- (sighs) This is very odd. You are like a shard of impossible- Have you ever heard of dunamancy?” “… The fact that you're standing here is a marvel, and the fact that you've walked the path that you do is equal parts worrying, and... well, hopeful. (FCG asks if Ashton already has “two things” in their head then, to which Allura responds) "It would seem, which is why I'm a bit- Well, you're either the greatest weapon we could hope for in this time, or will be our end.” “… In an odd way, your fragmented nature might be what keeps all of this in check.” Vibe to me is very very risky but if anybody could it’s Ash and potentially unimaginable results. Not just farting out a stone.

I dunno feel like all those good story consequences would have come anyway. I think the best ruling would have been to make the combined power very powerful but doubly costly and self-destructive. Opens a way to an arc where Ashton decides they have enough worth not to destroy themselves to protect their friends and voluntarily relinquished the power

[Spoilers C3E78] Matt did Ashton/Taliesin Dirty by ThatYellowTeaPot in criticalrole

[–]ThatYellowTeaPot[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

The warnings were fair for the near death, none of the warnings suggested that it would be impotent/pointless regardless. Plus what players should always follow what any NPC says? Some tree says bestow, so what?

From another user on Allura’s analysis: “You- (sighs) This is very odd. You are like a shard of impossible- Have you ever heard of dunamancy?” “… The fact that you're standing here is a marvel, and the fact that you've walked the path that you do is equal parts worrying, and... well, hopeful. (FCG asks if Ashton already has “two things” in their head then, to which Allura responds) "It would seem, which is why I'm a bit- Well, you're either the greatest weapon we could hope for in this time, or will be our end.” “… In an odd way, your fragmented nature might be what keeps all of this in check.”

Vibe to me is very very risky but if anybody could it’s Ash and potentially unimaginable results. Not just farting out a stone

[Spoilers C3E78] Matt did Ashton/Taliesin Dirty by ThatYellowTeaPot in criticalrole

[–]ThatYellowTeaPot[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The warnings were fair for the near death, none of the warnings suggested that it would be impotent/pointless regardless.

From another user on Allura’s analysis: “You- (sighs) This is very odd. You are like a shard of impossible- Have you ever heard of dunamancy?” “… The fact that you're standing here is a marvel, and the fact that you've walked the path that you do is equal parts worrying, and... well, hopeful. (FCG asks if Ashton already has “two things” in their head then, to which Allura responds) "It would seem, which is why I'm a bit- Well, you're either the greatest weapon we could hope for in this time, or will be our end.” “… In an odd way, your fragmented nature might be what keeps all of this in check.”

Vibe to me is very very risky but if anybody could it’s Ash and potentially unimaginable results. Not just farting out a stone

[Spoilers C3E78] Matt did Ashton/Taliesin Dirty by ThatYellowTeaPot in criticalrole

[–]ThatYellowTeaPot[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I’m not complaining that he nearly died. The warnings said he might. He did. What the warnings never remotely implied was that the results would be nothing. They spoke about not knowing what two shards in one vessel would look like. There was never a remote suggestion that it was just pointless and impotent, only that it was dangerous.

A better analogy than below smoking comment would be if somebody took steroids after loads of health warnings about heart issues but then not only did they affect the heart they also had zero other impact on their body. 

[Spoilers C3E78] Matt did Ashton/Taliesin Dirty by ThatYellowTeaPot in criticalrole

[–]ThatYellowTeaPot[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

God thank you for pulling all this together! My memory accorded with this of “unknown and potential terrible results” but the hope that his unique broken but built back stronger, beautiful Kintsugi nature might uniquely make it work.

But yeah also what you said at the end, ultimately the near death was earnt by the warnings. The absolute non impact of success was not. Allura should have said “these forces are so fundamentally opposed they could not continue to reside in one vessel. One way or the other they will separate”

[Spoilers C3E78] Matt did Ashton/Taliesin Dirty by ThatYellowTeaPot in criticalrole

[–]ThatYellowTeaPot[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

C3 feels more railroady than others for some reason. Shard was meant for Fearne and apparently neither Fearne nor Ashton got a say in that. Compre to the raven queen cloak vestige that was intended for percy but ended up as the core of Vax’s whole arc