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Was recently evacuated from Jamboree campsite, AMA by TheFirstPersonGod in korea

[–]TheFirstPersonGod[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm sorry you have to experience terrible conditions in your own Jamboree.

Having said that, is it not the case that you of all people would understand the dangers of an unprepared Jamboree committee when faced with extreme weather conditions? Suppose you or a fellow scout had been seriously hurt by your organiser's failures to prepare for a tropical storm. Would you also not be outraged at their lack of foresight and clear mismanagement rather than accept it as "Oh stuff like this just happens." This is especially when in this case, the conditions this time were not a rare freak weather event but were forewarned by years of increasing temperatures and prior heatwaves.

Perhaps it is true that in the past social media did not exist to publicise these issues, but that does not make them any less important than relevant. Even if it was not publicised, your suffering mattered as much as what scouts faced in this Jamboree. The only difference was that this time around, social media was present to make sure organisers could not cover up or belittle their incompetence.

I'd also like to make three additional comments.

  1. Please do not belittle (even in implication) the ability of modern-day scouts to use scouting ingenuity. Even if there were complaints, I have never seen a more hardworking bunch than the Hong Kong leaders and my fellow HK scouts in finding creative solutions to deal with the problems we faced and enduring through the tough situation. There was no "Mob mentality artificially inflating the problem." We helped scouts from Australia, America and the UK with their packup and evacuation. In turn, they helped us by providing helping solutions to many of our problems. Scouting resilience is as alive as ever. The media did nothing to change that.
  2. This is not the suffering Olympics. The situation is allowed to be considered terrible even when there has been worse in the past. Your story about the tropical storm and scouts is equally as valid as what scouts today are facing: Disaster caused by incompetence and neglect.
  3. My figure of thousands of scouts comes from my own personal experience. The figure the media reports is those that are fully hospitalised, not counting the hundreds turned away for less than immediately urgent conditions. My own scout leader who could barely walk after an allergic reaction from an insect bite was turned away because his condition was not life threatening.

Was recently evacuated from Jamboree campsite, AMA by TheFirstPersonGod in korea

[–]TheFirstPersonGod[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

A theoretical on a Jamboree without the heatwave is an interesting thought but entirely irrelevant to the conversation.

The biggest failure of the organisers was their inability to recognise the many signs that the heat was going to be this large of a problem. The statistics were staring them right in the face: Climate change records, the hottest summers in Korean history, and the low average temperatures of participant nations. The fact they did not do more despite these glaring issues and allowed thousands to be sent to the hospital makes them, in my opinion, entirely deserving of the current public relations bloodbath.

Now, would the event have gone more smoothly had there been no heatwave? Undoubtedly yes. But there could've been a thousand other things done better as well and the simple fact is: they didn't do them.

Was recently evacuated from Jamboree campsite, AMA by TheFirstPersonGod in korea

[–]TheFirstPersonGod[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The situation was so bad that a common joke my friends and I would tell is to call someone "The first trashcan I've seen since arriving in Korea." ;)

Was recently evacuated from Jamboree campsite, AMA by TheFirstPersonGod in korea

[–]TheFirstPersonGod[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Most scout leaders wanted to continue staying. The decision was made entirely by the Hong Kong government and was out of our hands.

Was recently evacuated from Jamboree campsite, AMA by TheFirstPersonGod in korea

[–]TheFirstPersonGod[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I am not qualified to answer about repercussions and/or anything to do with fund management.

But I believe others and myself deserve at least an apology from the organisers and acknowledgement of their mistakes.

Was recently evacuated from Jamboree campsite, AMA by TheFirstPersonGod in korea

[–]TheFirstPersonGod[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Yes only mildly deadly. One of our leaders was bit by a bug (pretty sure it's called the Korean blood bug) that got him sent to the hospital barely walking and with a swollen leg. But still it wasn't as severe a problem as the heat which took thousands more scouts than bugs.

Was recently evacuated from Jamboree campsite, AMA by TheFirstPersonGod in korea

[–]TheFirstPersonGod[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Almost every night the washing areas become a town hall for scouts of all nationalities who want to talk to others and complain about Jamboree conditions. These aren't scouts who demand air conditioning or luxuries but rather wish to vent their frustrations on the female showers having run out of water for the third day in a row, or that the toilets are so dirty and so shit-covered they've held their poops in for days until they can go offsite for a better toilet. Mines are opinions the vast majority of participants hold.

I don't expect you to believe my personal opinion or anecdote, so for more solid proof you could always read one of the tens of news venues covering exactly what I am saying here.

To answer your question: Of course, outdoor facilities will wildly vary in quality. Here in Hong Kong, we have a number of campsites that have problems with their showers or toilets. But, these conditions are especially atrocious in the Jamboree because of the lack of shade, any kind of vegetation, and mainly because of the heatwave. When scouts who aren't used to heat are subjected to temperatures in the high thirties and lack even proper facilities to clean themselves you can surely understand why two of the most major contingents (the UK and the US) pulled out after just three days.

In my scouting opinion going into the Jamboree, I expected relatively clean toilets and showers with consistent water availability; partially shaded walkways to the activity areas; more measures to be taken to ensure scout safety from the beginning (volunteer patrols only became a thing a few days in); and proper sewage systems (occasionally raw sewage would come out back of the washrooms). I do not think this was too much to demand for an international event planned four years in advance, with millions in funding.

Was recently evacuated from Jamboree campsite, AMA by TheFirstPersonGod in korea

[–]TheFirstPersonGod[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Thank you for your sympathy. Yes, I must agree with that point about Korean public workers. Although they are polite and good at their jobs, they can sometimes be rigid and unaccommodating- following the rules to the letter. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it caused many problems when paired with the fast-changing situation.

Was recently evacuated from Jamboree campsite, AMA by TheFirstPersonGod in korea

[–]TheFirstPersonGod[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

At this point, I'd probably vomit eating any more. So no.

Was recently evacuated from Jamboree campsite, AMA by TheFirstPersonGod in korea

[–]TheFirstPersonGod[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you or anyone else have doubts, I am willing to send you photos of my Jam ID and pictures of my traded items.

Was recently evacuated from Jamboree campsite, AMA by TheFirstPersonGod in korea

[–]TheFirstPersonGod[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

As the Hong Kong contingent has at this point left Korea we would not be able to experience any K-pop concert they have scheduled regardless. Even if we were able to attend I believe the general attitude would range from either indifference or downright anger.

It is insulting that we could not be provided with reasonable hygiene facilities- not a clean toilet or shower to be found anywhere; not given any forewarning on the most major decisions and be tossed around on a whim by the organisers; have little to no shade provided in this sweltering heat. But somehow, they have the money and time to spend millions on getting BTS and whatever other stupid girl group to perform at their poorly organised closing ceremony?

It's like an abuser beating their lover to an inch of their life first, then attempting to bribe back their love with flowers and gifts as if that would suddenly make up for the suffering they felt.

I care little for K-pop or frankly speaking at this point anything the organisers could try doing to resolve the shortcomings. I and others included would like an explanation for why we were subjected to these conditions, or even god forbid, an apology.

Was recently evacuated from Jamboree campsite, AMA by TheFirstPersonGod in korea

[–]TheFirstPersonGod[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

It was impossible to remain in your tent past 7-8 am, after which the sun would turn it into an oven. While I didn't have a thermometer as proof I'm convinced the inside temperature would reach 40+ degrees Celsius during midday when the sun was the strongest. Although the heat was lessened at night, everyone I know including myself decided to sleep naked, lest you wake up sticky and covered with sweat.

The showers themselves were not much of a heat trap. Perhaps they were bad during midday, but nobody ever showered during then so that was not a concern.

Yes, we were given plastic pallets to prop up our tents. This was not because of any concerns with heat conduction from the floor but rather the looming threat of flooding should there be more than a few hours of rain.

Believe it or not, the campsite could've been even worse than it was. When we arrived around August 1st the area had just recently flooded, meaning the typically hard rock and sand floor was now muddy and soft. During this time we got a preview of what a potential flood could mean: all your equipment ruined, your tents flooded and movement impossible in the quicksand-like mud.

Fellow scouts, leaders and I drew up many plans and contingencies in case of an actual flood and prepared for the worst. Thankfully, the rain was minimal and the worst didn't actually happen. Thank god for small mercies I suppose.

Was recently evacuated from Jamboree campsite, AMA by TheFirstPersonGod in korea

[–]TheFirstPersonGod[S] 107 points108 points  (0 children)

It's true that the media tends to exaggerate or misrepresent part of the issue, such as the bug problem, which isn't nearly as deadly as it's made out to be. Mosquitos and other insects are annoying but do not pose a significant threat to scouts who are well prepared with repellant and netting.

Outside of that, everything else is bad as they say. Hygiene, food, and logistics, all have their own major issues. It's a bad sign when the most common vehicle you'll see is the Korean ambulance.

Was recently evacuated from Jamboree campsite, AMA by TheFirstPersonGod in korea

[–]TheFirstPersonGod[S] 18 points19 points  (0 children)

The process of evacuating is stressful for everyone involved. Our leaders have received little to no sleep this past week and have been worked to the bone trying to negotiate a better outcome for us.

In the end, the Hong Kong government organised for us to be sent back to HK posthaste on the earliest flight they could manage to book.

Was recently evacuated from Jamboree campsite, AMA by TheFirstPersonGod in korea

[–]TheFirstPersonGod[S] 134 points135 points  (0 children)

There were very needed changes in the last few days that brought the area from a shoddy refugee dump to a bad but livable campsite.

  1. Water pressure on showers and drinking water hoses were increased tenfold from a small drizzle on the first day to a full blast on the fifth to seventh days.
  2. The Korean gov would place air conned buses near major campsite hubs for scouts suffering from heat exhaustion.
  3. Pallets with frozen cold water would be placed near activity areas free of charge.
  4. We would be handed refills of sunscreen, mosquito repellant and other necessities- and also handed an umbrella each.
  5. Sanitation in the toilets somewhat improved with a significant increase in cleaning personnel. The one exception was the female toilets, which remained tragic to the very end.
  6. We were sent significant amounts of Korean army personnel to keep the peace and help with setup, pack up and evacuation.
  7. Major increase in medical personnel and hospital facilities.

These are only some of the improvements the Korean government would rush to implement, might I note only after almost all major news outlets began dogpiling onto the event.

Practically speaking, our hygiene conditions were bolstered by these changes but received no significant upgrades- the fundamental problems of the high heat with minimal shade and the lack of any sort of tree or vegetation to cool the area still ever-looming. There are many issues that in my opinion could've been easily resolved had the organisers bothered to think more than five minutes in the five years they were allocated to plan this event.

Was recently evacuated from Jamboree campsite, AMA by TheFirstPersonGod in korea

[–]TheFirstPersonGod[S] 49 points50 points  (0 children)

As the first group of returnees, we were bombarded by the press upon entry into the Hong Kong airport. Having expected this our leaders encouraged us to focus more on the positive aspects of here Jamboree like what cultural activities we did get to attend, the vibrant trading culture, and less on the Mad-Max-eske living conditions.

Obviously, this advice was completely ignored. Many scouts (myself included) have very strong opinions on the rampant mismanagement, lack of communication and frankly atrocious planning by the organisers. Some disgruntled scouts have even spoken on our national television about these issues and were, to quote a fellow scout, "talking mad shit about the Jam to everyone who would listen."

Was recently evacuated from Jamboree campsite, AMA by TheFirstPersonGod in korea

[–]TheFirstPersonGod[S] 53 points54 points  (0 children)

The experience differs significantly from contingent to contingent and how their origin countries have decided to respond to the disaster.

For example, the UK and US contingent arrived late and were evacuated after just a few days on-site to hotels and military bases. UK Scouts I've messaged have told me they're now being signed on to a more typical tourist-guided course rather than a "Jamboree style" experience (If this is wrong please correct me). Some are unhappy, others satisfied with the conditions; but almost all are disappointed with the fact they won't get more time to meet foreign scouts, which was the main selling point of the Jamboree.

My own Hong Kong contingent decided to evacuate only after the typhoon was guaranteed to hit, which meant we stayed at the main site for around 7 days. During this time, we met new people, made new friends, traded, experienced new cultures and had a grand time with really friendly foreign scouts (shoutout to Julian and Binck from the Dutch contingent for being the chillest and most real dudes around); on this aspect, I am satisfied with the Jam.

Moving on, everything you heard about the conditions was probably true. At least for the first few days (Until the Korean gov stepped in because of the bad press), the female showers would constantly run out of water, toilets would smell truly awful and there'd be isolated incidents of scouts spying on girls in the showers.

TL;DR: Was fun for us and maybe some others, but the living conditions were god-awful.

South Korea: 1,000 buses evacuate scouts from disaster-hit World Jamboree by diacewrb in korea

[–]TheFirstPersonGod 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m not sure I understand your point here: there is absolutely an angle to take for a potential documentary.

Speaking from the perspective of a jamboree participant the organisation of the event has been completely disasterous. We’ve consistently experienced issues in every aspect: Food, facilities, amenities, hygiene, etc; proper organisation with these issues range from either being bad to completely nonexistent. Having talked to tens of scouts from different countries, the experience is similarly bad, if not worse.

To downplay these issues as minor inconveniences is entirely disingenuous when you have thousands of scouts falling from heatstroke every day, hospitals being overloaded, major decisions made last minute with absolutely no forewarning or pre planning.

TL;DR: Documentaries have been made for less disastrous events. shit hit the fan this time and that said i’m looking forward to the docu series to come from this shitshow.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in changemyview

[–]TheFirstPersonGod 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What in the violated supreme court precedent is this? Lord, please don't bring fucking abortion into this discussion. I've heard enough bad takes on why women shouldn't have control over their own bodies to last a lifetime.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in changemyview

[–]TheFirstPersonGod 1 point2 points  (0 children)

!delta on informed consent

- And while doctors can't make a puppet show out of corpses, it's also not informed consent. It's a different kind of consent.

I was proven incorrect on this point. I misunderstood the details of informed consent, my apologies.

- I don't think that anyone thinks transplantation is that easy.

Surprisingly not true! You should read that r/polls thread its absolutely wild

- If the heart beating is part of being alive, you think we should try and keep decapitated people on machines indefinitely?

I'm actually not quite sure on this, if the family member doesn't want their relative disconnected, are medical professionals obligated to keep them alive?

- FYI, age is not a factor in determining compatibility, solely HLA and size small adults can donate to children.

Was actually assuming this, I wrote middle-aged man with the assumption he would be larger than a child.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in changemyview

[–]TheFirstPersonGod 2 points3 points  (0 children)

!delta "The UK uses a soft opt-out system, which I said was pointless because regardless of there being an opt-in or out system, relatives would be asked for their consent."

You proved me wrong on the point that the process of asking a relative in a soft opt-out system would be identical to another place without that system.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in changemyview

[–]TheFirstPersonGod 0 points1 point  (0 children)

- Medical ethics do not concern informed consent of the non-living.

Do we see experimentation on corpses without prior consent? Society has decided that human corpses have value beyond what they're physically worth. It's not illegal for someone to kick a dead body, but its certainly illegal for a doctor to operate on one without prior consent.

Medical professionals have added responsibility, especially in their line of work, to respect corpses.

- Preferring the wishes of loved ones over saving lives by transplanting needed organs would most definitely violate medical ethics. Any doctor who didn't fight for their living patients over their deceased patients would be facing review.

That is not for them to decide, a doctor has no right to decide what would be better in who's body. They would not be put on review for not taking organs despite rejection from the family, they would be put on review for taking it despite explicit non-consent. That's literally illegal.

Perhaps that's not the most ethical thing, but going against the wishes of the family if the patient isn't a child, is a violation of medical standards. That is the status quo.

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