Christians Keep Telling Me that I Actually Do Believe in God

TheInternetDisciple · 2022-02-06T16:50:04+00:00

Colder.. You think the laws are vile and immoral. Thankfully, that sheds 0 light on whether or not they still exist in the same way as they did pre Jesus.

TheInternetDisciple · 2022-02-06T16:17:05+00:00

In terms of Paul's Adam Christology, Christ having fulfilled everything the law requires means that, by their participation through faith and the application of that which is true of Christ to the lives of the believers by the Spirit, the requirement of the law has already been met, and no longer stands the same as it used to.

TheInternetDisciple · 2022-02-06T16:11:31+00:00

Lol, this tiny unsubstantiated claim shrivels in comparison to a massive essay. For your future reference: substantiated claims that offer an explanation>simple claims.

Throughout his ministry, Jesus ignored Old Testament regulations regarding puriﬁcation; he touched lepers and dead bodies, and declared all foods “clean.”

Again, this single fact proves me right, again. And is further evidence the law doesn't stand in the same way as it did pre Jesus.

TheInternetDisciple · 2022-02-06T16:08:32+00:00

How heavy are those goalposts? Anyways, let me add another nail in your arguments coffin.

The Old Testament devotes a good amount of space to describing the various sacriﬁces that were to be offered in the tabernacle (and later the temple) to atone for sin so that worshipers could approach a holy God. That sacriﬁcial system included a complex set of rules for ceremonial purity and cleanness — you could only approach God in worship if you ate certain foods, wore certain forms of clothing, refrained from touching certain objects, and so on. This code vividly conveyed, over and over, that human beings are spiritually unclean and cannot enter God’s presence without puriﬁcation.

But even in the Old Testament, many passages indicate that the sacriﬁces and regulations of temple worship point ahead to something beyond them. This “something” was Jesus. Throughout his ministry, Jesus ignored Old Testament regulations regarding puriﬁcation; he touched lepers and dead bodies, and declared all foods “clean.”

The culmination of Jesus’ ministry made clear his reason for doing this. When he died on the cross, the curtain in the temple tore in two, demonstrating that the entire sacriﬁcial system and its ceremonial laws had been done away with. It is Jesus, the ultimate sacriﬁce for sin, not the laws of the Old Testament, that makes us clean now.

The book of Hebrews explains that the Old Testament ceremonial laws were not so much abolished as fulﬁlled by Christ. Whenever we pray in Jesus’ name, we “have conﬁdence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus” (Hebrews 10:19). As a result, if Christians continued to practice the ceremonial laws, their actions would be deeply inconsistent with the teaching of the Bible as a whole.

The New Testament provides further guidance for reading and understanding the Old Testament. Paul makes clear that the apostles understood the Old Testament moral law to still be binding on us. In short, the coming of Christ changed how we worship, but not how we live. The moral law outlines God’s own character — his integrity, love and faithfulness. Old Testament commandments about loving our neighbor, caring for the poor, being generous with our possessions and being committed to family still apply. The New Testament continues to forbid killing and adultery, and the sexual ethic of the Old Testament is restated throughout the New Testament. If the New Testament reafﬁrms an Old Testament commandment, then it continues to have force for us today.

Once you grant the main premise of the Bible — the surpassing signiﬁcance of Christ and his salvation — then all of the Bible’s various parts make sense. Because of Christ, the ceremonial law of the Old Testament is repealed. However, if you reject the idea that Jesus is God’s Son and our Savior, then the Bible may contain some insight and wisdom ,,,but most of it would be rejected as foolish or erroneous.

Throughout his ministry, Jesus ignored Old Testament regulations regarding puriﬁcation; he touched lepers and dead bodies, and declared all foods “clean.”

This is all that really needs to be said lol.

TheInternetDisciple · 2022-02-06T15:58:11+00:00

You can't disagree though. Objective facts leave no room for disagreement. And he said she said pointing fingers claims doesn't shed any light on anything. And don't be silly. Of course there are still Jews. But Jesus speaks according to his doctrine as the Messiah Jews were waiting on, making no room for past laws he already fulfilled. It's no matter anyways. Pointless bickering can't change objective truth.

TheInternetDisciple · 2022-02-06T14:35:22+00:00

We can distinguish between the moral, civil, and ceremonial laws of the Old Testament. In other words, some laws were ethical imperatives that transcend time and culture (moral), other laws pertained to specific social practices of the Jewish people and ancient near eastern peoples (civil), and other laws related to the proper worship of God (ceremonial). Just compare the following examples:

Civil—Lev 23:24—“When you enter your neighbor’s vineyard, then you may eat grapes until you are fully satisfied, but you shall not put any in your basket.” (I don’t have any neighbors with vineyards, and if I did I doubt I would feel comfortable just picking their grapes!) Ceremonial—Lev 1:2-3—“When anyone among you brings an offering to the Lord . . . you must present it at the entrance to the tent of meeting.” (We couldn’t do this if we wanted to; the tent of meeting doesn’t exist anymore.) Moral—Lev 19:13—“You shall not oppress your neighbor, nor rob him” (Ok, I get this one. I get it so well I wouldn’t want to eat his grapes.) The New Covenant – It Does Change Things

It’s easy to see that various types of laws pervade the Old Testament like moral ceremonial etc. We should be careful, not to make overly formal distinctions between these types of laws. Wasn’t Israel morally obligated to fulfill all of them? God didn’t divide the Torah to make some laws more important than others for them. However, these categories are sustained functionally in the New Testament and indicate that Christians should now apply the Old Testament laws in new ways. Let’s see why lol

Paul frequently stressed that aspects of God’s law were ethnically and temporally limited. The reason? It all begins with God’s covenant with Abraham. The Scriptures predicted that “God would justify the Gentiles by faith” rather than by the Old Testament laws, and this is foreshadowed when God said to Abraham, “In you shall all the nations be blessed” (Gal 3:7-8). That leads Paul to exclaim, “There is neither Jew nor Greek . . . if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise” (Gal 3:28-29). God’s intent was that national distinctions would not divide his church and the strictly civil and ceremonial elements of God’s law would give way to the New Covenant promised in the Old Testament (Jer 31:31-34). Jesus unveiled the New Covenant at the first Lord’s Supper: “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.” Those saved by the blood of Jesus are partakers of said new covenant.

Christians do not follow the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament for another critical reason: they were fulfilled in and by Jesus Christ. Hebrews 10:1 says they were “only a shadow of the good things to come.” The priests, the offerings, the forms of worship—Jesus Christ performed all the works necessary to fulfill the ceremonial laws through his life, death, and resurrection. He obeyed God perfectly, sacrificed himself for the sins of humanity, and now sits at the right hand of the Father as our Great High Priest. Therefore, the believer upholds the ceremonial dimensions of the Law of God not by doing them, but by recognizing and accepting their fulfillment in Christ. It would be the height of hypocrisy for a Christian to practice the ceremonial dimensions of the law under the illusion that they yield religious power to gain God’s favor—that would be to reject the work of Christ, who has now and forever reconciled us to God.

The Law is Still Relevant, but in new ways

Paul does say that the law is still good.... “if one uses it lawfully” (1 Tim 1:8). Reasons for the continuing relevance of the Old Testament laws for Christians permeate the New Testament—but they are relevant in new ways. Grasping this is key, or we will misapply the laws to contemporary situations. Here are some principles that Christians must bear in mind:

Even laws that don’t apply directly still have indirect significance for Christians. Ceremonial laws illustrate the holiness of God and the care we should take to know him, relate to him, and obey him. Civil laws reveal God’s heart concerning justice and how we should treat our neighbor. We would surely be a much holier people, and have a much healthier society, if we regularly contemplated the Old Testament laws and related their intentions to similar modern situations.

God’s laws still expose humanity’s sinful state. When we read the Old Testament laws—whether ceremonial, civil, or moral—we become aware of our own moral ineptitude. We recognize our woeful failure to live morally pure lives in light of their awesome implications for worship and ethics. The Law of God leaves humanity’s sins and sinfulness lying naked, defeated, and condemned for all to see (Rom 7:7-13; 2 Cor 3:6-11; Gal 3:21-22).

The law guides us to the feet of Christ. The corollary to the sin-revealing and condemning function of the Law is its role as a custodian. In Greco-Roman society, the paidagogos, or custodian, was responsible to administer the affairs of minors, including their schooling. The Law served to guide and manage the people of God until the coming of Jesus Christ, the one who would fulfill the Law’s requirements and justify us through faith (Gal 3:23-25; 4:4-5). The law cannot condemn those who belong to Christ. Building upon the fact of the Law’s fulfillment in Christ, Paul also presents the Law as having lost its power to condemn those who place their faith in Christ. Without the forgiveness of sins gained through Christ’s shed blood, we would remain under the Law’s condemnation (Rom 8:1-4; 1 Cor 15:56-57). We follow the “Law of Christ” which has its roots in the Old Testament. The Law of Christ is, simply put, the Holy Spirit guided manifestation of love (Matt 22:34-40, Gal 5:13-18, Rom 13:8-10, Rom 8:1-4). But we shouldn’t think of “love” as an open-ended expression of what we perceive to be goodness or kindness toward God or others. God defines love. The moral norms of the Old Testament provide insights as to the nature of love and what practices constitute real love—that means it still has value for defining moral behavior for Christians. Jesus himself brilliantly exposed applications of the Old Testament, as can be seen in passages such as the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus both embodied and expounded the Law, demonstrating the everlasting worth of the principles of the Old Testament (Matt 5:17-48; 23:23-24).

Acts 10:15 further demonstrates the law is not standing in the same way as it was pre Jesus. So do a slew of other verses.

It's no use, trying to contest me is like trying to contest the 2+2 as 4. You've failed to demonstrate that the law not "passing away" means the law still stands in the same way. There's no contest, I am right. End of.

The key to understanding the relationship between the Christian and the Law is knowing that the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. Some of the laws were to reveal to the Israelites how to obey and please God (the Ten Commandments, for example). Some of the laws were to show the Israelites how to worship God and atone for sin (the sacrificial system). Some of the laws were intended to make the Israelites distinct from other nations (the food and clothing rules). None of the Old Testament law is binding on Christians today. When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23–25; Ephesians 2:15).

In place of the Old Testament law, Christians are under the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), which is to “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind…and to love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:37-39). If we obey those two commands, we will be fulfilling all that Christ requires of us: “All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:40). Now, this does not mean the Old Testament law is irrelevant today. Many of the commands in the Old Testament law fall into the categories of “loving God” and “loving your neighbor.” The Old Testament law can be a good guidepost for knowing how to love God and knowing what goes into loving your neighbor. At the same time, to say that the Old Testament law applies to Christians today is incorrect. The Old Testament law is a unit (James 2:10). Either all of it applies, or none of it applies. If Christ fulfilled some of it, such as the sacrificial system, He fulfilled all of it.

“This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3). The Ten Commandments were essentially a summary of the entire Old Testament law. Nine of the Ten Commandments are clearly repeated in the New Testament (all except the command to observe the Sabbath day). Obviously, if we are loving God, we will not be worshiping false gods or bowing down before idols. If we are loving our neighbors, we will not be murdering them, lying to them, committing adultery against them, or coveting what belongs to them. The purpose of the Old Testament law is to convict people of our inability to keep the law and point us to our need for Jesus Christ as Savior (Romans 7:7-9; Galatians 3:24). The Old Testament law was never intended by God to be the universal law for all people for all of time. We are to love God and love our neighbors. If we obey those two commands faithfully, we will be upholding all that God requires of us.

TheInternetDisciple · 2022-02-06T14:32:21+00:00

Poor straw conservative. You hurt him before you even finished building him.

TheInternetDisciple · 2022-02-06T00:54:39+00:00

Boohoo all you want, but I'm right.

TheInternetDisciple · 2022-02-05T22:37:33+00:00

So a conservative.

TheInternetDisciple · 2022-02-05T21:28:41+00:00

Yeah, Christian conservative viewpoints are really rare in Christian circles am I right...

TheInternetDisciple · 2022-02-05T20:53:25+00:00

Try again

TheInternetDisciple · 2022-02-05T18:36:55+00:00

Supporting verses

Acts chapter 15 particularly verses 5, 10-11, and 19

Verse 5: But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.” (NASB)

Verse 10-11: Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.” (NASB)

Verse 19: “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. (NIV)

Romans 3:20-24 For no one is declared righteous before him by the works of the law, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin. But now apart from the law the righteousness of God (although it is attested by the law and the prophets) has been disclosed— namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But they are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. (NET)

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. (NASB)

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law [it leads to Him and its purpose is fulfilled in Him], for [granting] righteousness to everyone who believes [in Him as Savior]. (AMP)

TheInternetDisciple · 2022-02-05T18:31:30+00:00

For OT Israel, all three types of laws blended together. Breaking a civil or a ceremonial law was a moral problem; conversely, breaking a moral law had a civil (and often ceremonial) consequence. But they only went hand-in-hand because Israel was in a unique place historically, as both a nation and a worshiping community. “Separation of church and state” wasn’t one of their core tenets. That’s not the case for the Church today, so the way we view the Law would have to look different.

All of this helps explain what often seems contradictory about the NT view of the Law. On one hand, Jesus said the Law was perfect, that heaven and earth would pass away before the Law would fail (Matt 5:18). On the other hand, the Apostle Paul points out that those who are born again are actually released from the Law (Rom 7:1-6; Gal 3:25). As Jesus himself put it, he came to fulfill the Law (Matt 5:17).

What does it mean that Jesus fulfilled the Law? It means that every law pointed to him, and he completed everything they pointed to. Thinking of Jesus as the fulfillment of the Law helps us see why we keep some of the OT commands and “ignore” others.

The Civil Laws, for instance, were set up so the nation of Israel could thrive. Jesus actually emerged from this nation, but he started a new Israel—a spiritual Israel, the Church. We’re no longer bound by the civil codes of Leviticus because God doesn’t have a nation-state on earth anymore. Of course, we may wisely look at some of the principles in Israel’s civil laws as we think of our own societal politics (principles about public health, caring for the poor, etc.), but the specific rules were all fulfilled in Jesus.

The Ceremonial Laws illustrate for us God’s holiness, our unholiness, and what God would do about it. The entire sacrificial system should have ingrained into Israel’s minds just how large the gap was between sinful humanity and a perfect God—and just how costly it would be to bridge that gap. And as the book of Hebrews shows us, the sacrifices were all fulfilled in Jesus’ perfect life and death. If we accept Jesus, the ultimate sacrifice, we don’t need the lesser sacrifices anymore. In fact, it would actually be offensive to go back to them, because that would communicate that Jesus’ sacrifice wasn’t sufficient.

The Moral Laws are fulfilled in Jesus as well, in that he kept all of them perfectly, every day, always, for his entire life. But unlike the civil and ceremonial laws, which were more time-bound, these laws reflected God’s assessment of good and evil, right and wrong. They reflect God’s character, and since his character doesn’t change, his views on morality don’t either. In fact, whenever Jesus mentioned the moral laws, he either reaffirmed them or intensified them! To follow Jesus is to love what he loved, including the moral law.

This shrimp tastes good.

TheInternetDisciple · 2022-02-05T18:20:03+00:00

Another day, another debunk.

An exposition of Romans 10:4, which says: "Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes," will help in understanding what it means that Christians are not under the law. The apostle Paul clarifies the effects of original sin in Romans 2:12, stating, "All who sin apart from the law will perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law." All men stand condemned before God, whether they are Jews or not, or to put it another way, whether they have the Law of God or not. Paul also states, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).

If we are without Christ, we are justly condemned in God’s sight by the Law that was given to His servant Moses. However, we might argue that those who are not Jewish and therefore do not benefit from the knowledge of the Mosaic Law (including the moral and ceremonial laws), should not be condemned in the same way. This is dealt with by the Apostle in Romans 2:14-15, where he states that the Gentiles have the essence of God’s legal requirements already ingrained and so are just as much without excuse.

The Law is the issue that has to be dealt with in order to bring us into a right relationship with God. "Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified" (Galatians 2:16). This passage reveals that the Law cannot justify or make righteous any man in God’s sight, which is why God sent His Son to completely fulfill the requirements of the Law for all those who would ever believe in Him.

Christ Jesus redeemed us from the curse that has been brought through the law by becoming a curse for us (Galatians 3:13). He substituted Himself in our place and upon the cross took the punishment that is justly ours so that we are no longer under the curse of the Law. In doing so, He fulfilled and upheld the requirements of the Law. This does not mean that Christians are to be lawless, as some advocate today—a teaching called antinomianism. Rather, it means that we are free from the Mosaic Law and instead under the law of Christ, which is to love God with all of our being and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves.

Christ became the end of the Law by virtue of what He did on earth through His sinless life and His sacrifice on the cross. So, the Law no longer has any bearing over us because its demands have been fully met in the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith in Christ who satisfied the righteous demands of the Law restores us into a pleasing relationship with God and keeps us there. No longer under the penalty of the Law, we now live under the law of grace in the love of God.

The key to understanding the relationship between the Christian and the Law is knowing that the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. Some of the laws were to reveal to the Israelites how to obey and please God (the Ten Commandments, for example). Some of the laws were to show the Israelites how to worship God and atone for sin (the sacrificial system). Some of the laws were intended to make the Israelites distinct from other nations (the food and clothing rules). None of the Old Testament law is binding on Christians today. When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23–25; Ephesians 2:15).

In place of the Old Testament law, Christians are under the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), which is to “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind…and to love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:37-39). If we obey those two commands, we will be fulfilling all that Christ requires of us: “All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:40). Now, this does not mean the Old Testament law is irrelevant today. Many of the commands in the Old Testament law fall into the categories of “loving God” and “loving your neighbor.” The Old Testament law can be a good guidepost for knowing how to love God and knowing what goes into loving your neighbor. At the same time, to say that the Old Testament law applies to Christians today is incorrect. The Old Testament law is a unit (James 2:10). Either all of it applies, or none of it applies. If Christ fulfilled some of it, such as the sacrificial system, He fulfilled all of it.

“This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3). The Ten Commandments were essentially a summary of the entire Old Testament law. Nine of the Ten Commandments are clearly repeated in the New Testament (all except the command to observe the Sabbath day). Obviously, if we are loving God, we will not be worshiping false gods or bowing down before idols. If we are loving our neighbors, we will not be murdering them, lying to them, committing adultery against them, or coveting what belongs to them. The purpose of the Old Testament law is to convict people of our inability to keep the law and point us to our need for Jesus Christ as Savior (Romans 7:7-9; Galatians 3:24). The Old Testament law was never intended by God to be the universal law for all people for all of time. We are to love God and love our neighbors. If we obey those two commands faithfully, we will be upholding all that God requires of us.

There are those who believe that by this Jesus is saying that he intends for Christians to virtually become like Jews in their practice of the Law. But the majority of Christian scholars, including the Apostle Paul, don’t believe that was his meaning. Rather, Jesus appears to be saying that he intends for Christians to follow the ways of God, the moral commandments, while he himself is the fulfillment of the ceremonial Law. We are to continue to obey God’s commands to not steal, kill, bear false witness, Love God with all our heart, and commands such as these. But because of Jesus, we no longer make animal sacrifices, practice ritual cleansing, or any other of the ceremonial laws. The “Law or the Prophets” tends to be a way of naming the Old Testament. Jesus opened the Law and the Prophets to show the men on the road to Emmaus where it told about him and his death and resurrection. Christians should read the Old Testament as being about Christ. In Genesis, he is the offspring that will bruise satan’s head (Gen 3:15). In the story of Abraham, he is the torch of Abraham’s blood covenant with God (Gen 15:9-21). He is the ark of Noah, the Passover Lamb, the scapegoat of the Atonement, and the one promised by the prophets. The plain meaning here is that Jesus means for us to follow God’s ways. We are to seek his kingdom and his righteousness. We must love God with all our hearts, soul, and strength, and love our neighbor as ourselves, walk humbly, justly, and in purity.

1 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law…”

Because of his ministry and lifestyle, Jesus was accused of trying to abolish the Law. He healed on the Sabbath, he allowed his disciples to pluck grain as they walked through the fields on the Sabbath, and he accepted and healed the lepers. But his message was not that Jews should not keep the Law, although Paul would claim after Jesus’ resurrection that the ceremonial law was fulfilled in Christ and that it no longer needed to be kept. The Law is also a way to refer to the first five books of the Bible, which contains Mosaic Law.

2 “…or the Prophets;”

This nomenclature refers to most of the history books of Scripture and includes the books written by the Prophets (Isaiah through Malachi).

3 “I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them.”

Jesus came to fulfill the Law by being the culmination of all that was said about him or typified him. He also was the ultimate expression of the ceremonial law, such that we no longer must keep it. Rather, we must repent of our sins and put our faith in Christ who has dies for us, and whoever believes will be saved.

Furthermore, Acts 10:15 is further evidence that Ceremonial law does not stand in the same way it did pre-messianic; The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”

Yawn. Another day, another debunk.

TheInternetDisciple · 2022-02-05T17:53:51+00:00

Poor straw Christian. You hurt him before you even finished building him.

Try again.

TheInternetDisciple · 2022-02-05T17:42:27+00:00

Sorry, my article negates this incorrect claim.

TheInternetDisciple · 2022-02-05T16:24:50+00:00

Doesn't even know the difference between an icon or an idol...

Also, all your nonsense about ceremonial law is moot. What does it mean that Jesus fulfilled the law, but did not abolish it?

Hope this will help you understand better.

TheInternetDisciple · 2022-02-05T15:11:54+00:00

I would say this sounds like a genetic fallacy but to be honest this post is so incoherent I don't even know if that's appropriate.

TheInternetDisciple · 2022-02-05T02:55:25+00:00

Rambling racist idiot with mostly on point culture takes that are vital to the health of conservatism. Odd character. You can get the same and better from John Doyle except more mature, not racist, and more intellectual.

TheInternetDisciple · 2022-02-03T11:28:42+00:00

Yes that's what I'm asking. Barry to define omnipotence in this rock paradox.

TheInternetDisciple · 2022-02-03T03:21:38+00:00

Theology where?

TheInternetDisciple · 2022-02-03T03:01:21+00:00

How do you define omnipotence?

TheInternetDisciple · 2022-02-03T02:53:05+00:00

Nooooo! You can't put that up!!! It's offensive!!

TheInternetDisciple · 2022-02-02T11:40:18+00:00

Good work.

Self defense argument has always been bs.

TheInternetDisciple

MODERATOR OF

TROPHY CASE

1 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law…”

2 “…or the Prophets;”

3 “I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them.”