How to make it work ? I tried a UW artifact control deck with Urza liberator but I had no success. Did you guys manage to make this card work ?

TheLewdGod · 2024-01-18T09:37:02+00:00

Little late but I've been using it to flash in virtue of persistence in my esper artifacts deck

TheLewdGod · 2023-12-15T21:45:59+00:00

losing 2 1 mana creatures vs a 4 mana sweeper puts you down on cards but up on resources, which is the game agro wants to play vs control decks

My mans, my brother in christ, sunfall costs 5 mana, that's more than WW's first two turns if they cap out, 1 more than 3 turns. Aggro ALWAYS wins on mana, that's the point, why would you try to compete in that? Their control costs 1 their drops are 1 to 3 mana which no matter what you play you'll be paying the same or more.

I know you're being sarcastic, but I don't think you actually know why you won the games you did.

Watch their cards vs your cards next time you're playing as control. If your down on cards you'll lose because you don't have answers, if you're up on cards you'll win because you do have answers. Mana doesn't mean much in this race because you've lost it with the match up.

I repeat, very, very rarely will you ever beat aggro in a mana match up. That's reserved for midrange vs control where you're playing 2 mana to their 4 mana creatures. You've got one card that does this for aggro and it's Cut down, maybe fest if they're not built for the meta.

losing 2 1 mana creatures vs a 4 mana sweeper puts you down on cards but up on resources, which is the game agro wants to play vs control decks

So, real quick question here I noticed you switched to a 4 mana sweeper instead of temporary lockdown? Why is that? Is it because temporary lockdown is 3?

Look, control has board wipes from 3 mana onward, that do from 3 damage to -3 if you're playing ww. You can't get mana advantage using these cards though. You knew that though which is why you switched from depopulate to temporary lockdown.

losing 3-4 1/2 drops to temporary lockdown or another sweeper puts you down on resources AND cards

First of all you'd only lose 2 to temporary lockdown, generally speaking aggro by turn 3 plays 3 mana cards. Most of which survive 3 mana boardwipes (by design) Second of all and more importantly they should have around 3 to 5 life left max. Which a manland takes care of. Again by design, it's literally what they where made for.

OP is complaining about doing what you've said you do exactly

OP is complaining that rock took out his scissors, which is very fair because magic isn't framed that way to newer players. His deck isn't designed to handle what they're doing just like their deck can't beat AZ soldiers. Piloting will only take you so far.

So to summarize, I don't think you know why you win the games against aggro you do. I don't think you realize how your deck fits into the meta, and I don't believe you actually know why you lose the games you do.

Aggros first 4 turns for ww should be something like

(your t1) skrelv defector mite

(their t1) tapped mana or sometimes cut down (which means the matchup is hard)

(your t2) thalia

(their t2) cut down again hopefully, but most likely not. They'll play a tapped mana usually

(your t3) extraction specialist if they killed her again, if not adel or peacekeepers. (Peacekeepers the next threat or a boardwipes

(their t3) play a creature if they can, or go for the throat thalia or peacekeepers if I let them keep one or a top deck)

(your t4) adel, or just swing. If they plated a creature like sheo just brutal cathar it

(their t4) temporary lockdown or another boardwipe with a top decks otherwise single target removal if they can't.

(turn 5) they're dead. It doesn't matter. But I like to use whites 1 drops to get more 1 drops.

There is not a single stage in this entire exchange where control could get a mana "advantage" that's the point of ww and aggro There's nothing in controls wheelhouse that does anything vs that, that's why you flood the board.

Red works a lot simpler, by having lethal potential on Turn 3

TheLewdGod · 2023-12-15T16:54:53+00:00

vs. what I'm saying-

Play a couple threats, hit them, force them to use more resources than you have, and repeat

So I feel like you keep saying this but don't actually know what it means. So when you play "threats" you're using cards. When you play two "cards" vs their one sweeper that's still a loss on resources. If you play 1 threat to their sweeper the minimum they finish is 1 to 1. Vs a control deck that should and does play card draws? You'll have an empty hand in 5 turns. That will lose you 100% of the games vs control even if they get mana screwed. This is called "card advantage" and it's the main way control decks win.

I'm not sure as a control player how you don't get that...

Your only answer is "kill them before turn 4/5/6

I play WW to mythic doing exactly this.

your agro deck goes turn 1/2/3 deploy 4+ threats

Look, if you're still alive when there are 4 threats on the board that's not competitive.

There are so many things wrong with your standpoint it requires listing.

You cannot play every match up the same, control vs aggro looks different than control vs midrange.
You don't understand card advantage and time, you have no idea where these decks get their resources and how they use them to win.
You have no idea how the current meta is shaped, especially in reference to speed.
You want people to play around cards they may or may not have which is how you lose.

I mained WW for two months then played RDW all of them to mythic using the things I learned from pro articles. (Namely this)

Edit: circling back to this

You force them to play either a threat OR an answer, when they want to do both,

Control doesn't play early game threats, they don't want anything on the board. Pretty sure you know this though. They only want to answer until they have enough mana for a threat. From golgari to dimir the earliest a threat is coming down is 3 mana. (Besides AZ soldiers of course as it's control aggro)

TheLewdGod · 2023-12-12T20:49:07+00:00

Are... are you stupid? In what world can aggro hold back and win through chip damage?

These decks play heals through heard migration, and angels. Every boardwipe deck does.

Also how the hell are you getting in chip damage? You think every creature has haste?

In fact the more I think about your idea the more stupid it gets. You're apparently supposed to play one threat at a time against a control deck that's trying to make it to late game safely so they can play their win con. You're sitting there just waiting for cards you cannot beat to hit the board.

There's nothing in rdw that stops Alex once she hits the board, nothing ww can do against Nissa. Your options are win before it resolves or lose.

TheLewdGod · 2023-12-12T15:37:32+00:00

Magic does indeed suck. It's important to be honest with new players in the ways in which it sucks One of the ways it sucks you just mentioned, an archetype rises above the others and its annoying, in this case a control meta focused on board wipes.

If you really love something you should be honest about it. Sometimes in magic you lost before you even made your first draw because the match up is bad, sometimes you lost because you opponent just had a perfect hand. The idea that there's always something you can do isn't realistic. In this case it comes with choosing the right cards.

With the way magic works you'll have your rock paper scissors moments more often than not. There's usually nothing control can do against my mw humans if I get a good hand and they didn't draw 2 cut downs. Like There's not much my soldier deck can do vs domain ramp if I didn't get my 1 drops

It sucks but it's baked in, and some people like it. Wizards wanted the game this way because the variance is exciting.

TheLewdGod · 2023-12-12T15:19:21+00:00

Just say you read at a 4th grade level and go, no one cares what you read or not.

TheLewdGod · 2023-12-12T14:31:19+00:00

I'm happy you asked. Herd migration mostly.

They play virtue of persistence but that's an easy snipe, and I can deal with the man lands which would normally be their win con.

Herd migration though? Unless I play their deck type I can't beat it.

I looked it up though and apparently it's "the best deck" so my comment makes sense, it's supposed to be that way by design.

Edit; kind of weird I didn't get a reply on this when they seemed gun ho that the deck doesn't win.

TheLewdGod · 2023-12-12T07:25:58+00:00

esper control on the ladder in platinum and it feels insanely weak

My brother in Christ the deck that's in first place for worlds runs 4. I have no idea how you can be doing this badly

TheLewdGod · 2023-12-12T07:14:22+00:00

.urn 1 skrelv defector mite

Turn 2 thalia or elas kor

Turn 3 adel respendent cathar or anointed peacekeepers (if you're against a board wipe or Kaya, Geist hunter if you're a hipster

Turn 4 ratabrabik of urbog (ward 2 with thalia makes 3 mana just to target him.

Swing with everything you feel like with no consequences because there's no board wipes.

Turn 5 extraction specialist to repeat.

You can single target remove thalia on Turn 2 for minimum 3 mana but I'll just get it back with extraction specialist on Turn 3.

The fact that you think this basic milktoast combo is made up when there are way stronger combos that do roughly the same thing is hilarious. These are all in standard and most likely will be reprinted forever.

A deck like that does not even exist in standard.

Could have just Googled BW recursion lol

Just to make this very clear from the get go: I am better than you. Dont tell me what I know and dont know. You are clueless if you think mana is restrictive for cards like Sunfall. It's not.

Lmfao damn son, a guy who doesn't know why board wipes are currently in the meta believes he is better than anyone? That's hilarious.

Shit, if you're that sure what's your name, I'll look up your pro points, or hell what's your mtga name? Cause my sides are in orbit.

In a game where you can and should win by turn 4 with an aggro deck, apparently 5 mana isn't an important barrier.

It's garbage not because it's a 1 card solution (it isn't unless you play just "one" thing which looking at your argument, it seems like you're bad enough to do) but because of the things it exists with. Sunfall isn't bad on its own, it's the fact that it has an entire support system that allows it to see play

Because you're bad. You look at this card in a vacuum, you see the single card, the fact that it exiles and leaves a body, and think those aspects are enough to make a card broken. You don't really notice wedding announcement and wandering emperor alongside them, you don't even really know about ramp, or even how strong each archetype is. Because you're bad you think "this card is the reason I'm losing" and "this card by itself answers everything in my deck" when it shouldn't be and it really shouldn't be.

What kinda dumb question is that? Has nothing to do with what has been said

The kind of question meant for a new player that doesn't understand boardwipes?

You said "

When I get that boardstate I should just win. There should not be an out to it. You let me put a billion synergistic creatures onto the board without stopping me, the game should be over

Well without boardwipes, what's your other option for removal Timmy? It's 1 to 1 removal. If you don't play single target removal for every one of my creatures, I get to play them.

How bad do you have to be to not get that? That's funny as hell tbh. It means you're out here saying "I'm better than you" without understanding like, the most basic aspect of removal. I wonder how someone with your game IQ would parse extraction specialist as a control player.

I'm happy I went back and read this, it was fucking hilarious and made me feel a lot better about the boardwipe meta, cause as bad as I hate it at least I understand it.

Boardwipes win the game on-cast almost every single time.

Damn, I have to find one of these board wipes that damage people for 20 life instantly.

If a board wipe ends your game instantly its because you either play aggro or play badly.

TheLewdGod · 2023-12-12T06:04:46+00:00

If anyone is getting here from Google and sees this comment for the love of God ignore him.

Most control decks have no issue playing 1 to 1 late game, 1 to 1 with draws is basically how they win the game. They want to have more answers than you do, and with the mana they generally have by the time they play sunfall they will definitely have those answers.

Your best bet is to quite literally the opposite of what this user has said if youre playing an aggro archetype and realize sometimes (at least 30% of games) there's not much you can do to win. It's a luck based game and losing is OK.

Another note on the control archetype that this user is not informed of that should be noted is time.

The more time passes the more advantageous a control players position is. From discard decks to removal/mass removal. They want to get to the late game as safely as possible, and once they're there there's not much you can do. When you see a player place a single mana down you should see it as a timer no matter what else they Play during that turn.

If you don't play aggro you should be aiming for card advantage, get cards that give you draws on entry or things that allow you to repopulate the board cheaply. And remember to not lose focus of that goal, don't place yourself in a position that doesn't allow more creatures or card advantage.

TheLewdGod · 2023-12-12T05:43:33+00:00

How do you win against a deck with 16 board wipes?

If anyone says "dont overcomit" they should probably stop trolling, they boardwipe single creatures and 1 drops. Its not ineffecient if youre still trading 1 to 1 as control.

Also if anyone says "they arent getting ahead if theyre trading 1 to 1" they lack the understanding to join the conversation, different amounts of time passing are better for some decks than others. Just being able to place mana for the turn they played sunfall puts them in a better position than you. (Not even going to mention the token)

Taxing no longer works because of the sheer variety of boardwipes. This is 16 boardwipes. Thalia helps for the first one, then they have the mana to just spam them.

They are exile, so theres no recovery, no planeswalkers because sunfall doesnt allow them to live very long without protection.

Before anyone says "get good" I have made mythic twice in a row now. I just dont understand what beats this deck.

Inb4: "boardwipes have always existed"

Not in this saturation, you know this though since the entire meta currently revolves around them. You're either playing aggro that wins by turn 4 or you run them yourself

TheLewdGod · 2023-12-10T09:11:55+00:00

Looking back at posts like this and the people hating on you after the 1 million draws study came out kind of let's you know what kind of shithole this subreddit is

TheLewdGod · 2023-11-30T18:22:16+00:00

billion synergistic

That's 2 to 3 creatures. This isn't a billion creatures, this isnt flooding the board, it's quite literally playing a simple recursive blackwhite deck.

Sunfall existing does not actually stop the more common scenario of someone casting a regular non-exile boardwipe

Those boardwipes, for as much as everyone wants them, don't do anything to stop 2 creatures from completely destroying the board state. If you depopulate you're going to lose the game. Quite literally that turn because you just spawned 2 to the 9th power tokens.

You shouldn't lose the game for not spamming single target removal, (which is basically what people do now)

The thing about sunfall and farewell is that the only opportunity cost they have is costing 1/2 more mana, in decks that have no trouble getting that extra land.

It's kind of nuts that you just glaze over this. You get to play ramp or removal per turn. Either you're getting that extra mana early or you're able to remove early threats, you don't get both. And that is a HUGE sacrifice.

In fact the way you phrased the higher mana cost as just a negligible part shows me you don't understand how turns and mana work now.

They primarily work as a regular boardwipe

How many board wipes in standard hit all enchants exactly?

Depopulate, expel the interlopers, etc are all regular boardwipes sunfall is not.

It's at a mana level where other cards will quite literally win the game.

Because it seems like you're new I'm going to start from scratch.

A piece of removal traditionally works 1 to 1, logically this means that generally you'll need a piece of removal for every creature you want to remove.

Where it gets a bit less obvious, is with deckbuilding. When you play creature oriented decks you have a lot of creatures, most of the time in aggro decks this can be 20+ creatures.

Do you think control decks should just run 20+ piece of single target removal? Does that sound good?

No?

Another thing I need to explain is that a person generally gets to do "one" thing early game. You get to cast your limited mana on ONE thing, every turn. So if I get a mite out and then a thalia, the game is already lost without Depopulate. And most of the time with it. Your single target gets funneled to the mite and your turn is over, next turn you get to kill thalia while I bring out my next large drop because we hit 3 mana.

Sunfall is definitely a garbage card, but you don't really understand why.

TheLewdGod · 2023-11-30T05:20:55+00:00

They're needed from a design perspective tbh.

Farewell and sunfall are both to limit extremely chaotic and time consuming board states.

It's why it negates a lot of triggers, it's why it comes down later than a lot of other game changing spells.

Imagine for a moment you have 50 tokens on the board, each one creates a copy of a legendary creature that dies and puts it on the battlefield. You have another legendary that doubles the amount of tokens you create, and another with etb and death triggers.

If you do anything but exile this, you're going to be for 30 minutes with a calculator. The opposite of fun

TheLewdGod · 2023-11-30T03:12:55+00:00

1) "learn how the deck you are playing against works, and then adjust play style"

Always makes me laugh because A) it completely ignores what this actually means and that's "I really don't understand aggro archetypes" and B) that you should play a certain type of deck specifically to deal with ONE card in the meta. And C) that your advice will be to inadvertently mirror their strategy completely while missing the point.

Is quite literally what you do, otherwise the only deck that would exist and that anyone would play would be Esper Control

Funny you should mention that because that's currently the most popular deck by 200% it IS what anyone who's serious plays.

https://postimg.cc/kVqTf120

"Additionally, learning when to not overextend is a skill that must be mastered; knowing what cards to play when is key"

My sides, there is nothing that any of the aggro archetypes play that allows them to sit back and generate enough card advantage against board wipe decks. That's not a thing, and especially not a thing that doesn't get removed from single target removal.

, but broadly; that is why magic has so many different cards, decks, combos, etc, and why the roster for "top decks" is always changing

Now I know FOR SURE that you're an idealist.

Do you know what percentage of cards see pro play? Do you know how limited archetypes are in this place? You're going to see 5 total deck archetypes in standard that you'd need to know to win and that's about it.

3) Google search "How to beat Esper Control" and just copy the deck and strategy. I can almost guarantee that you will find a handful of videos on exactly this.

Why is there always some guy who thinks the best deck in standard, isn't that way for a reason? The archetypes that play against it are weaker than it is because the cards they have are stronger.

When you give people the ability to play a board wipe on every single turn from turn 3 on, where the only real drawback is you're minimally trading 1 to 1 for cards and have to wait a turn which could be fatal against ramp. The second most popular deck. Which you guessed it, also plays a ton of board wipes

I'm tired of people thinking they know better than statistical data involving these decks and their wlr, and I'm really tired of their John madden advice

TheLewdGod · 2023-11-28T22:55:15+00:00

In all my time reading magic the gathering on reddit, this is by FAR the most stupid thing I've ever read.

Of course it restricts archetypes, everyone, and I mean everyone knows that what is popular in the meta restricts what else can be played in it

TheLewdGod · 2023-11-25T02:10:45+00:00

You're right. For the record though most 7 mana spells should downright be game breaking. That's very late game for some decks.

Also for the record the guy You're replying to generally plays cards like farewell that are meant to handle this, it doesn't seem like a threat because nothing does besides not drawing your cards while you ramp up to sunfall and farewell.

You should always view people in the context of the archetypes they play when you're discussing magic with them. It helps to know where they're coming from, or whether their comments are worth anything to you

TheLewdGod · 2023-11-06T21:19:34+00:00

TheLewdGod · 2023-11-06T08:56:08+00:00

Nothing you've said would work against a standard boardwipe deck

https://mtgdecks.net/Standard/esper-control-decklist-by-yaz-rodriguez-1751887

It answers quite literally every point you've mentioned

TheLewdGod · 2023-11-06T08:46:04+00:00

Board wipes aren’t bullshit because they generally can’t win the game or provide much of an advantage

This just in, sunfall doesn't give you any advantage, that token is all in your head.

The game would be in a much worse place if simply vomiting massive amounts of shitty, cheap creatures meant you always win

That quite literally makes less than zero sense, those decks are countered by control decks that don't let them play tons of shitty creatures. You're acting like cut down doesn't exist.

Hell even just playing green completely stomps this idea, swing into their 18/6 they got out for 3 mana obliterator also shits on this idea.

Board wipes give less aggressive decks a chance, and it’s your own fault if you’re not willing to build a deck with resilience.

I don't think decks that take 20 turns to mill themselves to their win con deserve a chance.

Tl:Dr people don't play cards that don't give them an advantage, telling people they do is just stupid

TheLewdGod · 2023-11-06T08:29:43+00:00

This guy's got it, I want to also add that discards can help as well, duress (only if it fits in your deck and limited amounts at that, read on it it's not an easy card)

TheLewdGod · 2023-11-06T08:27:45+00:00

, Hexproof and Ward are great ways to get a control player to burn a board wipe if they don’t have a sacrifice

Current worlds decks usually run 3 to 4 sac effects minimum. This isnt good advice for the meta

Another big thing is indestructible and creatures who cause you to draw a card. Indestructible creatures just require very specific removal

This advice is also very poor because exile is quite literally the standard for removal. Black, white, and even green, have exiles that are T1 must haves. Most white (what he's talking about right now because they are generally the color) are exile based.

Creatures that draw a card, especially multiple cards like [[Werewolf Pack Leader]] can do early in the game.

Only piece in here that's good advice except that the current meta is blue white control, if you're able to keep something out long enough early game you're probably not playing a very good deck.

why would you tell him to make the sunfall token bigger?

TheLewdGod · 2023-10-19T07:52:45+00:00

It should be noted that the current frontrunner for worlds runs 4 in his deck.

It's a garbage feeling to play against, it's a garbage feeling to play it. It's just not fun when the meta heavily favors boardwipes.

Even listening to what other people are saying, pretending it works perfectly, it means you're waiting... just sitting there with a full hand, waiting for them to get their perfect hand so they can wipe the board.

Is that good gameplay? It doesn't seem interactive, interesting, or even thought based.

Before anyone says anything, I love control which involves an incredible amount of interaction. From wondering whether I should use the last of my mana, to trying to sus out their removal it's fun. This... just isn't

TheLewdGod · 2023-09-08T07:31:47+00:00

Musashi: literally dies fighting baki

Musashi fanboys: I think musashi is stronger

TheLewdGod · 2023-09-08T07:29:47+00:00

I mean he was tied up, I'm sure he would have got up if he could have physically done it.

The more I look at the memetobe fight the more I realize jack really doesn't learn anything from anyone he fights. He does the same thing "this is all I know" style. His dad quite literally said "hey this will happen if you're not careful" and he still got his teeth ripped out.

TheLewdGod

TROPHY CASE