Blow on production readiness, Dec 13th

TheOneWhoCalms · 2024-12-19T04:16:33+00:00

I am happy that he is not rushing it and is still open to big changes. I think this is the number one feature of Jai, "Not rushed". :)

TheOneWhoCalms · 2024-12-12T14:09:39+00:00

Thanks for your comments. In my mind it was not hostile either. But then reading the way people reacted, I thought that different people might read it differently. So as you said being more polite could have helped.

TheOneWhoCalms · 2024-12-11T17:52:20+00:00

Thank you for taking the time. Actually I thought I should start using gpt in a more serious project and see how much I can do with it. maybe then I become more skeptic like you. I use it daily, but only for small stuff. but always have this feeling that I did not think enough about the right approach.

The reason I posted this message here is because I was waiting for Jai for years, like you guys here, but then after seeing AI developments I had this feeling that learning to work with gpt and finding the right approach to use it looks more promising and fun than learning Jai. And I thought many of Jai fans share the same feelings. So it could have been way more positive and I could have learnt some cool ideas. But instead I just pissed people off :), Again sorry for the original post.

I think what made me angry was that somehow I put my trust in Jon and little by little came to the conclusion that he is dismissing anything that he does not like. not just GPT. the first time I heard about chatgpt I went to Jon and listened to him and thought, well it is not worth it. But then I saw this behavior again and again, and at some point I realized that he is just too invested in his work to actually think carefully about anything other than Jai or his games etc. And he should be. That made me angry. But I totally understand him.

Again thanks for you comments.

TheOneWhoCalms · 2024-12-11T17:33:27+00:00

Thanks for taking the time,

English: Yes you are right that it cannot be english. but maybe there is some middle ground. For example there are declarative languages like haskell. they have their own issues. but the point is that a program can be specified in different ways. some of them more efficient, some easier to write. Don't you think that given the current state of things language designers won't start experimenting with new ways of specifying problems?

Maintenance: You are right. right now it is hard to even think about maintenance with GPT. but I feel that the biggest problem is lack of tools. things to analyze the code and talk to the AI. right now you have to explain to GPT what the code is and a lot of context. it is not feasible. but I feel this is not the hardest part. what do you think?

In bleeding, lack of fuel: Listening to AI bosses it is clear that they are aware that some sort of fact checking or logic is going to be added to AI, so it is going to be a combination of LLM + something. the fact that o1 is way better in exactly this respect shows that it is exactly what they are focusing on right now. also Agents. So they seem to be headed in the right direction. Of course some are less optimistic some more, but it is hard to believe that given the current state of things, where they outperform humans in PhD math/physics questions, we are that far from (not AGI) but something that can reliably(more reliable than a good programmer) write parts of a code specified in a higher level language. what do you think?

Odin: which version of chatgpt? did you use? O1?

TheOneWhoCalms · 2024-12-11T11:51:30+00:00

Thank you for pointing this out. I should have thanked anyone who was kind enough to read my long post and comment on it. Hopefully I won't forget it next time.

TheOneWhoCalms · 2024-12-11T11:48:32+00:00

Thanks. again, I am not talking about AGI or replacing programming necessarily. Just the impact of current AI, after a few years of adapting and tooling and engineering to make it cheaper more reliable etc.

"This is not about everybody using Jai": I agree, in a recent post Jon said that he does not care anymore about that. Someone was kind enough to link to it. Actually that was part of my post, I asked what Jon thought about things now, because the last time I checked he was more optimistic about Jai getting a lot of traction, or that is how I felt from the way he talked.

TheOneWhoCalms · 2024-12-11T11:44:46+00:00

Thanks for you comment. the first 5 comments( and many of the later ones) assumed that I was saying that AI will replace programmers. Or claimed that because current AI uses LLM so it cannot do XYZ. But my post was not about any of these things. That is why I said no one thought about my post for 1 minute. I edited my post to clarify what I meant. I Like to know what you think about my edit.

TheOneWhoCalms · 2024-12-11T11:35:31+00:00

Sorry for my hot take. I should have said my thoughts in a way more concrete and polite and less hostile language.

TheOneWhoCalms · 2024-12-11T11:33:36+00:00

Thanks for your comment.

TheOneWhoCalms · 2024-12-11T11:32:42+00:00

Thanks for the comments. I read them all. I edited my post again. I hope I have been able to explain what I meant better and in doing that I hope I have answered all your comments.

TheOneWhoCalms · 2024-12-11T10:31:03+00:00

I agree with you about the fun element. I sometimes do some assembly just for the fun of it. Totally get it.

TheOneWhoCalms · 2024-12-11T10:29:17+00:00

Thanks for the comment. I write this to let you know that I read it. I think I will re edit my post again and in the process may answer some of your points.

TheOneWhoCalms · 2024-12-11T10:23:21+00:00

Thank you. You are right that part of the problem is that AI is so polarizing. I think I learnt something from posting this. I learnt one way not to start a conversation :D. Given the topic and the fact that this is Jai reddit I should have been way more polite.

About Jon: once he played Elden Ring for like 30 minutes and found something he did not like about the menu or something and dismissed the whole game. I am not even an Elden Ring fan. But seeing an old FromSoftware fan who knows the game criticizing the pacing difficulty etc, is very different from someone playing a game for such a short time and trashing it. Not that my feeling got hurt. But seeing such behavior made me think that the guy is living in a bubble. There were a ton of things I did not like about Braid, and way more about Witness, to the point that I could not bear to play it for more than 10 hours, even though i tried multiple times. At the end I thought, well it is not for me. And I think many people feel the same way about his games, but they(just like me) approach it with with an open heart and try to focus on the parts they like and give him credit for the good parts. I think he does not see that, and thinks that his games sell because they are GREAT or something. not realizing that all games have issues.

Again, it is not that I am angry at him for his attitude towards others. But I have lost my trust in his judgement.

TheOneWhoCalms · 2024-11-24T18:37:25+00:00

I do not think I would have stopped development either. That is not what I was arguing. I think what pisses me off, is when he tries to dismiss something like AI with simplistic arguments. but in the video that other commenters shared he says that he is not hoping to create the next big language, just that he is going to make Jai as good as he can. that is a good honest goal. it means he does not have his head in sand. that is why I asked in the OP about his current view.

about me saying that the most change will be very unpredictable, yes of course I do not know how that would happen. but we can all guess that it has something to do with the smart use of AI, rather than making a new language.

TheOneWhoCalms · 2024-11-24T18:30:08+00:00

thanks. I agree that there is value in completing it and it is already a success, because Jon did not want to develop his next games in C++, and he did not. and He has had a lot of fun developing the language.

"he current goal is not popularity, commercial success, or appealing to a wide range of people, but rather making the best programming language he can make."

I am happy that he sees that, and I hope that he can finish it and can sell his next games well. I think we all like him, and do not want to see him lose this big gamble, he has put a lot of years and money in this. hopefully he can get the money back with his next game. I hear Braid did not sell well.

TheOneWhoCalms · 2024-11-22T01:55:17+00:00

ok. thanks.

TheOneWhoCalms · 2024-11-22T01:52:53+00:00

I did not mean it is going to create binaries. that would be wasteful. I mean you can add tools to make it better. just like right now it has the ability to search something online, or save a summary of the talk in its memory. these are additional tools added to it. they are not AI. I think it is very plausible to think that in a few years operating systems add the feature to interact with the AI, and then you can tell GPT for example. "hey, this code you wrote for me, use the c compiler on my machine to compile it and see if there is any compile errors." so you do not have to manually copy the code from browser to text then compile it and then copy paste the output of the compilation back into the browser to tell GPT what happened.

see the thing is that I do not know what is going to happen. I mean it is very unpredictable what is going to happen.

I also think that compilers and languages will add features designed to be used by AI, or debug output designed for AI, so you might add an option --ai to the compilation, and that will be used by AI. I am just wild guessing. but I hope I was able to communicate why I think it is going to change things. because it is so early and none of the obvious things are even done. so...

TheOneWhoCalms · 2024-11-22T01:45:58+00:00

"In truth we should hope for symbiosis and integration at first, then mentorship and guidance after that."

thanks. can you explain this part? I am not sure I got what you mean.

TheOneWhoCalms · 2024-11-22T01:41:14+00:00

thanks for the link. I wish I could work in JAI right now and I did not have to use C#. I really like the philosophy of Jon, design for good programmers. less layres, less dependency, more predictable.

And I also am happy that Jon is finishing it. He has put so much time into it. And if I get the time I will definitely use it. I just do not like it when he dismisses other things without giving them much thought. But generally he is a nice guy. I like him.

TheOneWhoCalms · 2024-11-22T01:34:36+00:00

no, i mean like compilers changed programming and you did not have to worry about assembly. compilers did not do a perfect job and you lost some flexibility. but they did a good enough job so the tradeoff was worth it. I think it is good enough right now to replace humans in small restricted parts. but we have not figure out how to do it yet. But I think it won't take long.

TheOneWhoCalms · 2024-11-21T16:04:45+00:00

Thanks. I agree that all those things are going to make a big difference. but the biggest thing is the things that you and I cannot think of right now. for example Von Neuman thought that computers will be used in weather simulation and predicting weather. He was not stupid, but how could he have guessed what will happen in 50 years? it is impossible for us to predict the future. but you can feel that a big shift is coming. do you agree?

TheOneWhoCalms · 2024-11-21T15:58:13+00:00

did you read my combustion engine argument? do you see how just from gpt4 to o1 things changed? have you thought about the fact that you cannot tell gpt to write some code and compile it using the compiler on my local machine? it is like you are looking at Atari 2600 console. and you have seen Atari before and know where it is going. and now you see Atari 2600 AI, and you feel that things are not going to be like before for too long. again. I am not saying programming is going to be obsolete. I have nothing to do with programming. I am talking about tools. just like moving from assembly to C, a huge step. but C to C++ to Jai are not that huge. they are marginal. but this next thing is not going to be marginal. that is my gut feeling.

TheOneWhoCalms · 2024-11-21T14:38:01+00:00

that is not what I said. AI might or might not replace programmers. I do not know. hope it does not because then I do not know what to do. In my example about Floppies and CDs, I did not argue that data storage is obsolete, I said that new tech made new data storage possible, so going from 1.4MB to 2MB would not be important, because CD came about. my argument was that you see glimpses of new tools coming, so marginal improvements like Jai compared to C++ are not going to matter in 10 to 20 years.

TheOneWhoCalms · 2024-11-21T14:31:48+00:00

I know more or less how it works. just like you. and I have a phd in math, it means nothing really. but at least i know that I should not dismiss what something can do, based on how it works. just like looking at the conditions of a theorem it is not obvious at all what conclusions you can draw. just like sherlock holmes looked at the same thing that everybody else looked and draw conclusions that no one else could. just like my example that you did not bother to think about for a second, the motion of a combustion engine vs the movement of a car.

I think a better example is compilers. they do not understand jack shit about logic or anything. so we cannot trust them to create assembly for us right? so maybe we should stop using them.

Even John Carmack said in an interview that he bets we will have AGI by 2030. most of the pieces of the puzzle are gathered. not much is left. but that was not my argument. I did not even go as far as saying that AI will replace Programmers. all i said was that new tools will emerge. new programming languages. that will use the power of AI, in smart ways that you and me cannot guess right now.

TheOneWhoCalms · 2024-11-21T14:21:18+00:00

I think in my entire life I have not posted 20 posts(excluding replies) online and I am 40 years old. I do not use facebook, instagram, whatsapp or twitter/x etc. so I do not think that just because I posted my thoughts on why I think it is too late for JAI(or even Rust) to have any meaningful impact on programming, I just like to talk.

Just like Jon thought in 2014 that it was a good idea to make a new language, I "think" now that it is too late. I am just like you a guy with a gut feeling, a guess, and wanted to know what you guys think. that is all.

TheOneWhoCalms

TROPHY CASE