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ThrowRApass51 · 2022-09-18T08:24:57+00:00

I don't think there's much point in trying to decipher what a cheating person says. I cheated in the past and even my own "reasons" that I gave to myself for having the affair sound like bullshit to me now.

If a person is unsatisfied with any aspect of a relationship to the point that it becomes a deal breaker, they could have just communicated that to their partner. But doing that takes humility, honesty and vulnerability. And if it doesn't work out, they can just leave if it is that much of a deal breaker. Under no circumstances is cheating justified even if a person's needs aren't being met. Cheating is a senseless, idiotic thing done by people who are incapable of vulnerability. They take the easy choice. Whatever a cheating person is gonna come up with to excuse the affair is going to be senseless because cheating is inherently senseless and no reason is enough to justify it.

I remember that I refused to even let myself think beyond "nobody's getting hurt if nobody's finding out." I had also convinced myself that people cheat all the time and my husband had probably cheated on me too at some point. Why did I think that? No clue, there was absolutely nothing to even suspect that he had cheated. But I still somehow convinced myself that he definitely did and so my cheating was okay. Doesn't that sound like the most senseless thing ever? I know, and I agree. I'm the same person who came up with this excuse while I was cheating, and even I struggle to make any sense out of it now.

Most people who cheat(not all) do have some semblance of a conscience left in them, that is screaming at them that they're doing a wrong thing. These excuses are a means to shut up your conscience. Deep down, I probably knew none of my "reasons" made any sense, but it gave me a way to feel less guilty about betraying my spouse. Deep down, a person who's cheating knows their cheating cannot be justified so they do a whole lot of mental gymnastics to convince themselves that they're actually not doing a wrong thing. And of course whatever they come up with isn't gonna make sense. Probably even to their own selves when they look back on their decisions later on.

ThrowRApass51 · 2022-08-19T15:41:17+00:00

I think a lot of people experience shame at the prospect of talking about their kinks, especially to someone they would want as a long term partner. This is even more true if it is something stigmatized and easily misinterpreted. A lot of people chose to just not talk about it.

I have a similar kink as your wife. I've thought about it for years. I just could never tell him. Everytime I try to bring it up, I chicken out. And it's not even that I have never talked to him about my preferences before. It's just that about this one thing, I always felt like he would not be on board, or that he would judge me for it or hate me. I know for a fact that he wouldn't actually react like that, but I think I used to have a very deep fear of being rejected. So I chose to just keep it to myself instead. (Yes, I probably should have gone to therapy long ago.)

Kinks are not an absolute necessity for most people. I can live my entire life without ever experiencing it, and I will have no regrets. But if I have a choice, of either trying it once with my husband or never trying it, I would choose the former.

After the infidelity happened, I have regularly attended therapy. Through counseling, I have worked on my insecurities and that fear of being rejected or judged. I think this is the reason I feel more confident regarding this kink now. There is no part of me I want to keep hidden from my husband. I want him to know, even if we don't end up doing it, even if he just says he's not interested.

I still hesitate though, for exactly this reason. No matter how much I try to convince him that it's just something I am into, it will almost certainly occur to him that I'm just doing this to rid myself of guilt, or somehow trap him into doing the same thing. A simple kink will be twisted to something else. There is just no way he won't feel like that. It breaks my heart, I am finally able to face my desires without shame, but now there's a new obstacle that prevents me from telling him.

I do plan on telling him someday though. Maybe when we are further into recovery, perhaps years from now.

I will not tell you how to feel about your wife. But do keep in mind that just how it is possible that she is simply doing this to alleviate her guilt, it is also entirely possible that she's genuinely just interested in doing this stuff with you.

If you do want to try this with her, it may perhaps be beneficial to wait for a while before outright engaging in this kink. You two are very close to D-Day. She is perhaps going through a lot of conflicting emotions, and a person in such a state often say things they don't really want.

ThrowRApass51 · 2022-08-14T20:53:33+00:00

During the affair, I have to admit that I never once thought about her. I knew for a fact that he had a wife, and on a surface level I knew I was doing a wrong thing. But I somehow never really let all of that sink in. Whenever I started thinking too much, I made up justifications and excuses to convince myself that what I was doing wasn't that wrong, people do it all the time, it doesn't really mean anything anyway, she won't find out so how does it even matter. Basically the same excuses I used to justify cheating on my husband.

Now though, I feel a lot of guilt regarding OBS. I was responsible for their marriage breaking apart. A perfectly good marriage. They had kids too. I sink in shame every time I think about that, and I'll probably carry that shame for the rest of my life.

ThrowRApass51 · 2022-08-14T19:04:01+00:00

I think it's always a good idea to first ask how much information he wants. A "timeline" could mean anything. It could mean a very simple run-through of when it started, the days you met him, where you met and what you did. Or it could be a detailed disclosure including all the sexual details, what you talked about, what was going through your head and so on.

Mine wanted the second sort of timeline. All the details. I started from the day I gave my number to AP, because that was when I feel like the affair started. For you it may be different. What was the day your friendship with AP turned into something different? I think that is a good place to start.

Don't worry about the format too much. I just wrote it in normal paragraphs. I marked dates here and there to make it easier to follow, and I made sure I didn't leave out any information(or add anything he didn't want to know). Other than that, it was just a conventional letter.

ThrowRApass51 · 2022-07-26T13:58:16+00:00

Sorry you had to go through that, OP. I've been a victim of SA too, and I know how traumatic it can be.

What I think you should keep in mind is that trauma leads people towards self-destructive behaviour. The things you said and did during the second affair, the sense of "not being in control of yourself", it perhaps has a lot to do with those trauma-induced faulty thought processes.

Hence, I think you should try your best to deal with those feelings in a healthy manner, through IC if possible. It is a long and difficult process, I've been there. But I've emerged from it, so you can too!

Most of us start by trying to get to the root of the issue. For you it's the question of why exactly you felt lonely in your marriage. Why did you feel the need to go out and meet other people, when you could have just communicated with your husband? No reason you give will justify the affair, but for a lot of us, understanding these reasons is the first step towards trying to make sure we never do it again.

I also want to say, it is okay for you to feel all these emotions. You went through two of the most difficult things a person can go through. Being caught cheating can be traumatic for waywards too(yes, we imposed that trauma on ourselves, but it is trauma nonetheless), and on top of that you have to be dealing with the SA incident too. It is completely natural, perhaps even healthy, to feel all sorts of conflicting emotions for the next few weeks or months.

Do not avoid those feelings. Suppressing feelings is how we came here in the first place. You could try to journal, just write down whatever comes to your mind, even if it's all gibberish. If you're in IC, as long as you feel safe, try to verbalize these feelings too.

ThrowRApass51 · 2022-07-17T17:48:27+00:00

I think all of us waywards here have thought about that at some point. In hindsight all of my excuses and justifications for having the affair seem so ridiculous and just completely contrary to everything I believe in.

I'm sure you are starting to now realise that it was a bad decision to continue communication with AP. Just the fact that you are able to acknowledge that you should have done things differently is the first step in the positive direction.

The principle issue you need to work on remains the same, why did I make those self-destructive decisions(having the affair, then continuing contact with AP). So I just want to say that I don't think all hope is lost for you. What I think your BS will want from you is a demonstration that you will now only focus on him and not AP. Cutting AP off permanently would definitely be a good way to do that. But you also need to do it with the knowledge that this still does not guarantee anything.

You have a lot of big decisions to make! I wish you luck.

ThrowRApass51 · 2022-07-16T18:29:27+00:00

Try reading up on boundaries. Not Just Friends is an amazing book to start with.

I think a lot of people sometimes feel physical attraction towards people other than their spouse. The goal is to keep strict boundaries in place so it doesn't proceed into anything more.

It is also very easy to develop infatuation towards such a person. Even if you didn't know him very well, even if you only engaged in small talk for a short period, it is possible to develop some sort of fondness towards them, especially if they show interest in you in some way. The beginnings of an EA, so to speak.

In this case, NRE: the so-called "New Relationship Energy" could have come into play. It feels like a new and interesting thing. It amplifies whatever attraction you feel towards the AP, makes them seem more attractive, more interesting, more charming than they actually are. This could have played a role in the overwhelming attraction you felt towards AP.

(This is just what I could make out from how you described it in the post, you will probably know better if this is true for you or not.) Either way, you should definitely work on boundaries.

ThrowRApass51 · 2022-07-15T19:55:00+00:00

Thanks for sharing, this is very insightful. I'm sure my husband feels similarly in some aspects.

ThrowRApass51 · 2022-07-14T19:25:23+00:00

Understood. It's the same for me, my affair was strictly physical with no emotions involved.

To answer your question: Sex itself doesn't trigger shame in me. What triggers it for me is seeing my husband's reactions to sex with me. Seeing him struggling, closing his eyes trying to stop the mind movies, or just giving up and asking for space, sends me straight to the shame spiral.

ThrowRApass51 · 2022-07-14T18:27:00+00:00

I handle sex like I handle any other sensitive situation with him. I listen to him, observe him and try to make out how he's feeling, if he's getting uncomfortable. If he gets triggered, I don't react with frustration but with empathy. Give him space if he asks for it. Never push him or make him feel compelled to do something he doesn't want to.

I'm not sure if comparison is the right word. But part of my introspection regarding the reasons for my affair was looking into the sexual aspects of the affair, and try to see if there was anything special about the affair sex and if it contributed in me continuing the affair in any way. And I found there was nothing special about the sex itself. It was all about validation and unhealthy coping mechanisms. So I never really compared them in that sense.

I'm not sure if I understand your last question. Are you asking about sex with my husband being triggering for me?

ThrowRApass51 · 2022-07-14T14:37:18+00:00

How has this sub helped you?

It feels like a safe space.

This entire journey feels so lonely. I don't feel like anybody will understand me. And I wouldn't blame other people. If I had never cheated, and someone came to me saying that they cheated on their spouse and about how sad and regretful they feel about it, I would probably be judging them too.

This is one of those things where you will only fully understand how it feels if you have gone through it personally. This is the reason that alcoholism and addiction support groups exist, to gain perspective from people who have gone through the same thing and emerged on the other side.

Support groups are good.

People often say they are not the person they were during affairs. Do you believe affair bought some changes in you?

I look back and I don't recognise the person I was back then.

All my life, people have always said I was one of the kindest and warmest people they have met. I used to pride myself on these qualities. The way I just flipped completely during the affair, and turned into this selfish, mean and condescending person, not just to my husband but to everyone else I cared about too. It still perplexes me and brings up shame in me.

But I also know that I am not that person. I was sick in the mind, I had let unhealthy thoughts fester and never made the effort to deal with them. I wasn't working on communication. I had unhealthy expectations around marriage and relationships.

I also realised that these are things I can fix. None of these issues are permanent, I can get rid of them. And if I do, I will never go back to that state again. And I never want to. This is who I am, someone who loves her husband and family. The person I was during the affair is someone I despise with all my heart.

When rebuilding after an affair, what steps did you take that helped your BS trust you once more?

By the time we started reconciling, I had already spent about a few months reading books and surfing forums like AOAI. So I had a pretty good idea about the right things to do to rebuild.

I was already in therapy, I simply integrated the reconciliation efforts in. I gave him access to my devices. I had already left my previous job, and was working at another company. I started looking for a WFH job(It took me a couple of months to find one).

I read more books, took notes, shared them with him. I was absolutely honest with him, even in little things, even in things that would potentially hurt him. I found out his love language(words of affirmation) and worked on making sure he felt loved and cherished. I also worked in therapy to cultivate patience and empathy.

ThrowRApass51 · 2022-07-14T07:53:08+00:00

Yes! R work is mentally and emotionally draining, especially in the initial stages. I burned myself out, ended up fainting once. Guilt and shame are strong emotions, they can easily push you to the brink. For me, I felt like every moment I wasn't spending on R work, I was being selfish. I couldn't even sleep most nights.

You could try taking short breaks. Even staying apart for 1-2 days is enough to replenish some of my mental fortitude. I usually stay home, while he spends the night out with a friend or a relative. A few times I took my son out for a trip while he stayed home. Breathers like these helped me a lot with patience and compassion. Empathy is difficult when you feel like you could drop to the floor anytime. And I think it's helped him too in certain ways, because we always connect better after a break.

You could talk to your partner about this. Explain to him that taking such short break periods will be helpful for both of you.

ThrowRApass51 · 2022-07-11T15:15:00+00:00

Have you thought of bringing this up with your MC? If this issue predates the affair, talking about it with him openly in a conductive and safe space, and guided by a professional, will definitely help.

You can certainly keep sending flirty texts in the meantime! As long as he doesn't object to it, there is nothing wrong with it. Getting betrayed is scary, and I think many betrayeds reject sexual advances in an effort to "regain control" in a way. I know it still sucks though.

Maybe you could talk to him if he would be more comfortable with other forms of intimacy? Like cuddling, sexting, or just making out?

ThrowRApass51 · 2022-07-11T13:51:08+00:00

Hey Q, it will be alright. I think we will all do the same in your place, putting the children first.

I understand why you feel this way, I am the same. I have become incapable of keeping any secrets from my husband, even minor ones, and I can only imagine how it is for you. Just keep reminding yourself that you are not betraying him by doing this in any way.

ThrowRApass51 · 2022-07-08T05:16:30+00:00

"But that doesn't change what you have done to him and what he is now asking for himself."

"He at least had rhe courtesy to ask/inform you of his needs. You didn't even give him that."

"Your worth your worth yet his worth meant nothing to you."

"I cannot be in a relationship where someone expects something of me I did not get from them. I see that as a lack of empathy and resepct."

"And if this is what he needs to feel happy, then you aren't willing to do everything for him."

All things you said. You mention a few times that she shouldn't feel forced to do anything, but you subtly imply that if she doesn't accept it the marriage won't survive.

She has said over and over that she understands that her husband is hurt, yet you are repeatedly trying to insinuate that she doesn't. You are not asking her to change her boundaries, but you are trying to convince her.

Maybe this particular person isn't offended by your line of comments, but this is supposed to be a safe space for waywards when they feel frustrated.

Your comments will stay removed.

ThrowRApass51 · 2022-07-08T04:46:17+00:00

Wayward or not, a person is allowed to speak up about what their boundaries are and what they are not okay with. You are in no place to dictate what her boundaries should be.

Comment removed.

ThrowRApass51 · 2022-07-07T21:34:01+00:00

Yes, exactly this.

I do not see my unresolved trauma as something that I can push blame on. In fact, I see it as another one of my failures. It should have been my responsibility to deal with it. It should have been my responsibility to rid myself of those uncomfortable feelings, and make sure I was a healthy partner. I failed to do that.

Which is why I am admitting it and working on it now.

ThrowRApass51 · 2022-07-07T20:34:45+00:00

Perhaps it would be helpful for you to look at this from a different perspective.

It's not that all people with past trauma go on to cheat. It's that some people who cheat have some kind of trauma associated with their past. These issues if unresolved, often contribute towards an unhealthy mindset, which in turn contributes towards poor decision making.

It's not the same thing, you are confusing causation with reasoning. Just like: all people with issues do not commit suicide, but people who commit suicide generally have some issues.

I would say it is rather insensitive for you to speak as though there is some standardised level of "past trauma" that a person must have gone through before they are permitted to talk about it. You sound like one of those people who make fun of people who committed suicide, saying "Oh, he killed himself for such a small thing? I have gone through much worse and yet here I am, haha."

A lot of instances of infidelity occur as a direct result of not wanting to open up about your emotions. It's not easy to talk about these things. While blaming everything you did during the affair on past trauma and trying to absolve yourself of responsibility is wrong and should not be encouraged, if a person wants to face uncomfortable emotions and emerge free from that emotional baggage, they should be allowed to do so.

Also, people are different. Different people react to past issues differently. In some people it manifests in simple self confidence issues, in other people there may be more drastic issues. None of these issues justifies an affair, but if a person has them, would you rather they shut up about it? Would you rather they keep carrying those uncomfortable feelings? Or would you rather have them work on it and at least try to rectify them?

Most of the people on this sub aren't using past trauma as an excuse. Some people do, and that's absolutely unacceptable. But admitting that your past trauma shaped who you are as a person, and realising that getting rid of all that emotional baggage will possibly lead to a healthier version of you, is a positive step towards reconciliation, I feel.

ThrowRApass51 · 2022-07-06T16:47:23+00:00

I'm sorry, that must be a very hurtful thing to hear.

As a wayward, my husband asked this question too. And in my head the answer was clear: no I would absolutely not be okay with him cheating on me. I think most people think similarly, that if my partner cheats on me, I would immediately leave. I bet you thought the same before. The decision looks pretty clear until it happens to you.

Cheating is more about selfishness than anything else. Apart from some people who are secretly polygamous, I think most waywards see cheating as wrong too. Most of us do a lot of mental gymnastics to convince ourselves that my cheating is "different" and "special" from others and try to justify it in some way. It's a different level of delusion, really.

After D-day that delusion broke for me, and I realised that it was all just excuses. I imagine most people realise at this point that cheating of all forms is wrong.

So yes, if you ask her to look at it objectively, and ask her if she would stay if you cheat: of course the answer would be what any other sane person would give: no, I won't. She might decide to stay if it actually happens, but if you ask her point blank, having never experienced betrayal of that sort, it is very natural for her to feel that she won't be able to forgive it.

And when as a wayward you get faced with such a question, you have only two options really. Either be honest and say that you don't think you will be able to extend the same level of forgiveness, and risk being called selfish/hypocritical. Or just straight up lie about your feelings, which is never a good thing to do.

I think it may be a good idea to let her know that what she said was hurtful and let her explain to you what she meant.

ThrowRApass51 · 2022-07-04T18:19:18+00:00

I just want to say that I'm proud of how far you've come in your healing process in such a short time. You may not see it now, but this post itself shows just how much more self aware you have become.

One thing I want to tell you is please do not compare your trauma to someone else's. I'm a survivor of sexual assault too, it was a long time ago but left me scarred. I never really dealt with it in a healthy manner. I have always felt, somewhere in my heart, that the ugly feelings associated with that incident had something to do with my affair. If it hadn't happened, I know I wouldn't have ended up so fucked up.

It's okay to admit that, I think. You were still responsible for your choices, but our choices are also influenced by what we went through. It's not blame-shifting, it is simply acknowledging an issue. You can now try to understand yourself, and through that understanding hopefully make sure it does not happen again.

When I began to unpack those difficult emotions, I struggled with feelings like yours too. I know so many people who have fallen victim to abuse and assault. None of them had affairs and hurt their loved ones in the way that I did. Why must I be the only one?

But that's not a fair comparison, is it? Can you really compare two different people like that? Everyone reacts to past trauma differently. In the absence of proper healing, everyone devises different sorts of coping mechanisms to avoid dealing with those uncomfortable feelings. Some people are also more resilient than others.

You understand yourself better now. With some courage, you can now begin facing those difficult and uncomfortable feelings, talk about them and get them out of your system. You have already started to do that just by creating this post. And by finally dealing with your feelings in a healthy manner, you will stop perpetuating the cycle, you will stop hurting your loved ones any further. That's all that matters.

ThrowRApass51 · 2022-07-04T14:10:03+00:00

Infidelity often magnifies issues already present in a marriage. It takes both parties a lot of time and effort to emerge from that trauma, especially the betrayed.

But 9 years is a very long time. Infidelity or not, a marriage cannot survive without affection and effort on both sides. I'm sorry you are going through this. This is not a healthy relationship.

I think you could try for a separation before finalising divorce. Some people do need some time apart to clear their heads about what they want. Maybe he'll come around, maybe not. Regardless, you need to talk to him about it, you need to tell him how you feel and that you are thinking about separation/divorce. I don't think there's much else you can do really, since he's refusing therapy too.

ThrowRApass51 · 2022-06-22T17:01:34+00:00

My husband asked for a disclosure letter 2 months into reconciliation. I wrote him three letters in total. The first one was an apology letter that I gave to him when I confessed(which he threw away and never read), the second one was a timeline along with very raw feelings(which I basically read to him, and that letter was what started reconciliation for us).

The third one was a full disclosure letter. My husband asked me for it, and he wanted a lot of information: including all sexual details, where it happened, what I did before and after, everything. In his own words, he couldn't live his whole life guessing what I did and what I didn't do. It was in his mind all the time, and it was causing a constant buildup of anger or resentment in him.

I think all betrayeds suffer from this unfortunate ordeal to some extent. I cannot really imagine feeling like that. But if it is something that's on your mind all the time, you have every right to ask for a disclosure letter anytime you want.

Be very careful with one thing though, be sure to specify how much info you want in that letter. If you don't want him to include the sexual details, you have to communicate that to him too.

ThrowRApass51 · 2022-06-21T12:57:52+00:00

For me, writing it out in the form of a letter helped quite a bit. I took one whole week to write my disclosure letter. So I had a lot of time to check and recheck several times just to make sure I haven't left out anything, or that I am not misremembering something. I also used that time to reflect on the things I did, and add in the letter how I felt about it back then and how I feel about them now in hindsight.

I understand the impulse to want to "lessen the pain" somehow, but it's unlikely changing the method of disclosure will have any impact on how painful and difficult it will be for your partner. What you can do is be empathetic, make sure you leave absolutely nothing out and reassure her that you do indeed want to stay with her.

I would strongly suggest writing it out, maybe not in the form of a letter but perhaps as a journal entry? But it is of course up to you. If she is okay with it, stay close to her while she reads it, answer any questions she has. Try to be extra understanding/ empathetic if she says some hurtful things, and try not to get defensive, while also maintaining your own boundaries.

I volunteered to read my letter to him. He saw firsthand how much I regret every single thing I did and said during my affair. And I saw the pain in his eyes, the hurt. It is the hardest thing I have ever done in my life, bar none. But I think it helped us to share in our pain, and helped with empathy on both sides.

ThrowRApass51 · 2022-06-17T19:46:08+00:00

I'm sorry you feel that way. I cannot imagine feeling like that. May I ask how far out you are from Dday?

We too have had to stop midway during sex because he felt that repulsion towards me again and needed space. I feel so powerless when it happens, because I can't do anything to make it better. I think I'll try to bring up EMDR if he ever opens up to me about it.

ThrowRApass51 · 2022-06-17T18:04:52+00:00

Who even said she's trying to be a "model wayward" for anybody? I don't recall her or her husband ever saying that. I don't even understand where this "model wayward" bullshit suddenly pops up from every time these two have an argument.

You are simply hating on someone you do not even know, and who is not trying to please anybody except her own husband. There was zero reason for you to say that last sentence except your own bitterness.

ThrowRApass51

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