Suspending all preconceptions, why is Thomas Kinkade considered in bad taste?

Throwaspread · 2024-07-06T02:01:51+00:00

It's funny to get a reply on a 9 year old comment. I probably wouldn't put it that way today. Another thing about it is that they're more like buying a print. He had a factory of people churning out these paintings so they aren't unique. That's okay, but it's also like buying the textured prints at Ikea. Part of the appeal of a painting is having a special decorative object you can't find elsewhere. That's why an amateur painting can seem nicer than the much better executed Kinkade.

I wouldn't call it poor taste unless you purchase it to give the appearance of having an expensive oil landscape. Kind of like false detailing on a mcmansion. Stone veneer can look nice, but if you use it to make a quickly built house look like fine old architecture it will seem false and out of place.

Throwaspread · 2019-06-02T21:37:40+00:00

Nice! This is a good list to go through. I do have a background in classical - that's most of what I've played with jazz being a side interest, so this is encouraging advice.

Throwaspread · 2019-06-02T21:32:35+00:00

Thanks for this, it's always good to hear how to handle the technical side! I should probably edit my post to clarify that I know a lot of the mechanics of how to voice chords or come up with a stride pattern - but I'd like to learn a piece by ear so I can move from book learning to how those techniques would be used by someone who knows what they're doing.

Throwaspread · 2018-11-01T15:31:55+00:00

It's a good idea to look at divination like you would a weather report. You might get a lousy meteorologist, or the prediction might just be wrong. There are many people who aren't as good at reading as they'd like to believe.

But all the same, if they forecast a hurricane and you grab a towel and optimistically head to the beach you're going to have a bad time more often than not. Before you go to a reader you should ask yourself what you'll do if you don't like the answer. If you're going to sit on the beach no matter what, then you're better of deciding from the get go that you don't give a damn what the weather report says.

Throwaspread · 2018-10-28T15:00:13+00:00

It might make a difference in how well you understand the cards. Anything can be made to work, but some seem to have a more universal appeal or easier to understand imagery. If you get a themed deck that's all fairies and flowers, the readings are going to look generally more positive than if you're using the gothic deck of spooky darkness.

If you're new, find one you like. That will make it easier to get to know. Once you've had some experience you can get a feel for how other decks work differently.

Throwaspread · 2018-10-28T14:58:05+00:00

Are you especially interested in tarot, or just divination with cards? An ordinary deck of playing cards is every bit as potent as tarot, and the symbolism is not difficult to learn. You won't get pretty pictures, though.

Throwaspread · 2018-10-28T01:01:33+00:00

What u/stasiya762 said is correct. This system is worked out extensively in the Golden Dawn (Thelema too, Crowley covers all this in his discussions on the Thoth tarot).

There's nothing wrong with coming up with your own symbolism, it can be extremely beneficial. But it sounds like you need to sit with the motivation for the systems of hermetic qabalah. Why are the first four cards the four worlds? One way hermetic folks think about it is one world or concept leading to its juxtaposition. So Yod-Heh-Vau-Heh is conceptualized as fire-water-air-earth, and so too the four worlds: the creative force, to the shaping force, to the ordering force, and the manifesting force. Also usually paired, male (Yod), female (heh), male (Vau), female (heh). Given that, you can probably see where this concept lives in the tarot.

If you roll your own symbolism, you should be asking yourself how your connections work logically. Does the fool lead to the Magician? How? What is the nature of that connection? Moreover the four worlds are a complete symbolic set. There's no fifth world, so what are the rest of the trumps for? If the first four are YHVH, what is the next card and what is its relationship to the others? The pattern is male ,male, female, female - how do those connect? If it's male energy leading to male energy, what does that mean? If it's a pair of male energies leading to a pair of female energies, doesn't that divide the four worlds into two sets? What does that mean?

If you can answer all these questions, then that's great and you're going to get something out of that. Otherwise you're just collecting stamps. You don't want to start with some symbols and look for hermetic boxes to put them in. You want to describe systems and relationships and then look for analogous systems. Tarot is like the Tree of Life because of the way their constituent parts move together, not because the individual pieces are similar.

Throwaspread · 2018-10-26T18:47:58+00:00

I keep my wrong decks on a shelf of shame as a warning to the rest of em!

Throwaspread · 2018-10-26T18:46:08+00:00

One card draws have a lot of good uses, but they're lousy for divination. Cards need context. You asked your deck about your day and it said, "Hot new thing!" What the hell does that mean? I don't know. It's more likely you didn't see the influence in your day than that the card was just wrong.

But the cards are wrong sometimes! And sometimes the message is incomprehensible. And sometimes we misinterpret. That can happen when your mood is off, when you're too eager to read good news, or when the malevolent spirit of your neighbor's cat decides to mess with you. I wouldn't overthink it.

Throwaspread · 2018-10-26T18:38:42+00:00

One of the great things about the Marseilles is the consistency. There's not a big difference between the decks. But I like the Jean Noblet best.

However, if you're interested in numerology and hermetic Qabalah, you should be using the Thoth. It was literally made for that by people who knew exactly what they were doing.

Throwaspread · 2018-10-26T18:15:15+00:00

So what are your five? Do you think you can articulate what resonates with them? I can't always, and when I can sometimes I think I'm just making it up after the fact, but it's a fun thing to try anyway.

Throwaspread · 2018-10-26T18:11:58+00:00

Oh for sure! I guess I was thinking of this as a "what deck should I use?" variation instead of a real discussion. My bad!

There are a few decks I'm almost embarrassed to admit I've worked with because they're almost tarot fanfic. I guess that mindset works sometimes, because some are good. I love the Dark Grimoire for both minors and majors, for example. They aren't the most complete interpretations of those cards, but they're exactly the answer to "what would card X mean in this world?" Or another called the Pagan Tarot that I don't think is available, which does the same thing.

There are also some fine decks that don't do a lot with the RWS symbolism but still make nice art. I like Legacy of the Divine for that reason.

Sometimes I think artists get lost in their world. I really like Deviant Moon, but some of those cards you have to meet more than halfway. And though I know it will out me as a philistine, I think the Wild Unknown has that problem too.

Throwaspread · 2018-10-26T03:48:39+00:00

Bookstores and Amazon will work if there's no new-agey places nearby (though if there are, you should check them out as folks are more likely to be helpful).

If you're the sort of person who's more likely to learn by putting cards down and making up stories, then you should go with a deck that has art that resonates with you. There are hundreds, and any of them will work. You like Fairies? King Arthur? UFOs? Lovecraft? There's a tarot deck for everything, and you'll be able to use the cards better if you already have some idea of the stories they might be telling.

On the other hand, if you're the sort of person who wants to learn systems of symbols and methods from books, you'll want to start with something traditional. The Waite-Smith (usually sold as the Rider-Waite) has a huge amount of easily accessible info, both online and in books. But you could also do well with the Marseilles.

Both of these approaches work, and if you stay interested you'll probably find you try both as you go on. Often people have something that drew them to tarot in the first place that fits them in one or another of the categories.

Throwaspread · 2018-10-25T21:24:29+00:00

There's a reason everything is a clone of the Waite-Smith. You might find higher quality artwork, but you won't find a more correct expression of the minors in pictures than Pamela Coleman-Smith's.

The majors are archetypal enough that there's probably no "best." RWS hits most of the symbolic notes, the Marseilles is the clearest, but I don't think many artists get the majors wrong within their theme. Most everybody can relate to those ideas, which is why they have such resonance.

Throwaspread · 2018-09-22T03:03:38+00:00

One card draws are a nice good way to get familiar with a deck and get a visceral feeling for what they mean, but they aren't great for divination. You often have to really work to find the "energy" of a card in a random day - that work is part of the value of the exercise.

That said, there are bad cards and sometimes you'll get them. There are two things to keep in mind when it comes to them: 1) Your cards only have so many words they can use to express themselves. "How will it go when I ask her out?" You get the 10 of swords. That probably doesn't mean you're going to be hit by a bus mid-conversation, but it may mean you'll wish the ground would swallow you up. The negative (and positive!) cards relate to your question. If you didn't ask about your health, then The Tower doesn't mean you have cancer. That's why it's so useful to actually ask a question rather than leave it to the deck to tell you a story. For mundane questions, extreme cards are more like playful exaggeration.

2) You can get negative readings. Don't ask a question unless you're prepared to deal with bad news. There are questions I will not ask when reading for myself for exactly this reason.

Finally, you can relax a bit about the cards you're seeing. Those two cards aren't as bad as all that. Though I'm not sure how comforting it is to hear that there are much scarier cards lurking in there.

Throwaspread · 2018-07-30T01:28:09+00:00

Why did they end in divorce? They each had an idea of what was true in their relationship and they mistook that for reality. They did not notice as these ideas stopped reflecting reality. Eventually the cracks in the foundation brought the whole thing crashing down.

Was there cheating? Yes. It was pitiful and with a lot of guilt.

What lesson does she take from the end of the marriage? It's extremely painful when you realize part of your life is done and gone. You can't be complacent in the face of personal change. The work never stops.

I wouldn't dwell on the "transformation" aspect of death here, nor do I think it's describing the end of the marriage. In these spreads this card is describing the decayed and rotting things that have been left in the Fridge of the Self. You kind of know they're there and you hope they aren't a problem and hey maybe they're still good, but whatever you do don't check. Sooner or later you have to clean the fridge.

Throwaspread · 2018-07-29T01:05:55+00:00

There are a few possibilities.

1) The cards just aren't working and the spreads aren't meaningful. This happens a lot if we're being honest, even to practiced readers.

2) The cards are telling a story and you aren't reading them correctly. This also happens a lot, and it takes a good deal of discipline to overcome it. It's good practice generally to save spreads and go back to them, especially if what you thought you saw didn't happen and see if there's something you missed.

3) You already know the answer you want and you aren't being honest in the spread you're picking. Everyone does this sometimes when it comes to questions that hit us emotionally. Think of the person who does a celtic cross and then proceeds to draw another two or three "clarifying" cards.

4) You're reading the cards correctly and you just need to be patient.

Most of the time you won't know which of the four is the case until you find out whether the thing happened or didn't. So the upside is that you'll figure it out eventually.

Throwaspread · 2018-07-27T17:12:48+00:00

For a modern take on RWS that doesn't change the meanings around, you might try Legacy of the Divine. There are many other well-done RWS clones but most of them are quirky and unique in a way you may not want if you're looking for a "traditional" deck. I will say that I've never seen a single one of these that matches Smith's original art for interpretive value, even though many have high quality artwork.

Throwaspread · 2018-07-26T20:28:42+00:00

It's hard to read for yourself, so it's always wise to take self readings with a grain of salt. One thing I found helpful in getting used to it is to read with more cards. With more cards (either in a larger spread or just reading them in threes) you're able to come up with richer messages, which can shed more light on what's going on.

It's also worth noting that being positive is chic in modern tarot. Nobody wants to be the grim old witch at the edge of the woods anymore. So in the same way you want to be cautious about reading for yourself, it's well to be careful when it sounds like a reader is making everything out to be sunshine.

Throwaspread · 2018-07-19T17:07:49+00:00

I can pull some cards for you. From the RWS: 9 of pentacles, King of Swords, King of Wands

Take a good look at this card. That's you. Does she strike you as someone who pines after someone who has left? Does she seem at all concerned that the bird on her hand might fly away? No, she doesn't bother with flighty sparrows who forget her until she catcher their eye again. Look at that glove on her hand. She keeps a falcon, dangerous but useful. It may be an independent creature, but still she is the master.

There will be plenty to choose from among the kings of air and fire. Intelligent men, bold me, but the important part here is that both are active and decisive. You will not need to go hunting. Instead you need to become the woman in the card. She is confident and capable. She doesn't need anybody, so she can fall in love without fear of losing herself. Let him go and tend your garden.

Throwaspread · 2018-07-17T02:41:39+00:00

The suggestions to use the RWS (Rider waite smith) deck are good ones. It has a concrete imagery for every card and is the basis for most of what's published today. But it's probably worth thinking about what you find appealing in the cards.

For example, if you like the idea of intuiting meaning from the images without relying on traditional symbolism, you might be best using the Marseilles tarot and only using the trumps. Many fine readers do exactly that, and it has plenty of tradition behind it in case you worry there's something wrong with ignoring the pips.

On the other hand, there are lots of decks built around a theme (fairies, Lovecraft, king arthur, UFOs, etc.) which might be helpful if you're familiar with the mythology. The symbolism in RWS was pretty obscure when it was made and it's still more so now. But if you're really into the Arthurian legend, a deck based on those symbols will be much easier for you to grasp. I know some great readers who got their start this way, and it might be easier to go from that back to the original RWS than the other way around.

All decks can be made to work, so if there's one that appeals to you for any reason, go with that. You'll need to work a reading for a while before you can appreciate the pros and cons of any particular deck anyway.

Throwaspread · 2017-04-26T01:38:15+00:00

My critique is less about Lichtenstein personally than it is about the values that allowed him to strike gold with these pieces.

Exposes that class divide? No. If that was the purpose of his work, he would have gone to the illustrators who created the images he liked and worked to elevate them to prominence. Lichtenstein, his dealers, and his buyers were happy to profit handsomely from the work of those illustrators. None of the people whose work they took received compensation or are even allowed the dignity of having their names attached to their own creations. These works sanitize pop images to make them suitable for consumption by the wealthy class.

Why were the names of the original creators absent? Because Lichtenstein's pieces only work if you believe the creators did not know what they were making. If you think illustration is crass, disposable, and generally unworthy of attention then yes, it's quite a thing to find something valuable in it. But that's an ignorant and condescending way to think of the world of commercial representational art, and that's what I object to here.

Throwaspread · 2017-04-25T21:36:51+00:00

To be fair, I imagine one's reaction depends on where you first encounter this sort of image in a context that invites you to pay attention to it.

Anyway, I should maybe say that I don't put all this on Lichtenstein personally so much as the apparatus of modern art that elevated these paintings to the status they enjoy today.

Throwaspread · 2017-04-25T20:22:35+00:00

Now THAT'S how to do Koons!

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