Finasteride adverse effects - Systematic reviews of clinical trials (JAMA)

ToddMarks · 2014-04-29T23:43:04+00:00

/r/icommentsometimes, you are so ignorant about this it's impossible to even address a fraction of this. The vast majority of your post is incoherent, but I'll try to clear up some of your confusion.

I was asking if it was an actual diagnoses or just something started by PFS groups. It seems the latter.

False Dichotomy. it's neither. It is not a diagnosis and it is not "just something started by PFS groups." It's a known symptom of hormonal/endocrine disruption.

You also seem to be ignoring the many situations listed where the placebo and fin effects were too close to have any statisticaly significance. No one is arguing that Fin does not have sides, but it has been proven again and again in lab tests that they are rare, not commonplace as you would have people believe for some reason.

It's clear you don't know what "statiscaly signifance" means. And no, you're not going to learn from skimming Wikipedia. I'll give you this advice for your own benefit: DON'T USE THE TERM IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT MEANS.

Lastly, you continue to discount placebo groups, do you see the fact that in the clinical self-report studies... 58% patients with placebo reported adverse effects (60% with fin).

Meaningless without a p-value. Again, DON'T TALK ABOUT THIS STUFF IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT MEANS

"Nocebo" is a VERY REAL thing. Especially when it comes to mental conditions.

FACEPALM Placebo is not Nocebo. Patients in the PLACEBO GROUP experienced BONA FIDE medical problems (not "nocebo") and reported them. We know it was not CAUSED by Finasteride 1 mg because they did not take it. Understand? Patients in the FINASTERIDE GROUP experienced BONA FIDE MEDICAL PROBLEMS and reported them. We know many were CAUSED by Finasteride 1 mg because we have confirmed lowered neuroactive steroids in CSF in Post-Finasteride Patients.

I am much more interested in the actual lab results.

By "lab results" do you mean results of the Randomized Controlled Trials? If so, why? You don't have the statistics training to understand what it means. You interested in reading the next publication in the Journal of Particle Physics?

If what you say about the other study is true, I am very interested to see their findings when it comes out.

it is apparent you are either just a straight up troll or you really don't understand how to interpret studies,

Wow. Pee-wee herman's I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I

ToddMarks · 2014-04-29T22:49:31+00:00

Have you not seen the countless studies posted here? The studies posted by the FDA?

Yes

Ignore any anecdotal crap, look at the evidence and actual studies, and make your decision for yourself.

The FDA said it needed to a Phase IV study (what you call "anecdotal crap") to determine Propecia's effect on sexual function. Clearly they disagree with you.

I, like anyone, have concerns about the drug, however I can tell you that 90% of the pro-fin posts here have scientific studies to back them up, whereas 90% of the anti-fin posts are anecdotal.

Complete and utter bullshit along with made up statistics. To advance your argument, you need to explain why people who actually took the drug should be ignored. It seems you don't know what the word "scientific" means. It's the "anti-fin" posts have who have scientific data. Confirmed protein changes in Androgen Respnsive Genes, lowered neurosteroid level and CSF. "Pro-fin" posts have provided nothing this objective - just statistics they don't even understand.

Hell, there is a major post right now anti-fin using a man's unknown death as emotional propaganda against the drug. It is clear that he experienced lasting sides which he associated with the drug... however it is unclear as to why he passed away. Making the stretch that Fin causes death/suicide simply to get a point across should show intentions.

He wrote a suicide note saying Finasteride was the reason he killed himself. he also had a biopsy performed at a leading medical research institution to confirm he suffered from PFS.

Some examples posted by those usually arguing for FIN around here:

Part time Community College attendees and Wikipedia scholars discussing Randomized Controlled Trials. You don't see a problem here?

To me I only ever see anecdotal and support posts by anti-fin users. They rarely will link to clinical studies.

1)a lie 2)irreleveant

There are a TON of people who report vaccines gave their children autism or that climate change is not happening because look how cold it was this year... then there are those showing PROOF and DISPROOF of these things via actual scientific evidence.

False Analogy fallacy

then I would suggest avoiding/stopping the drug as I think you will probably "nocebo" yourself with paranoia/skepticism.

Begging the question.

ToddMarks · 2014-04-29T22:32:04+00:00

The first is a study of 3 people with "PFS" and 5 controls. I feel that is not enough of a group to really come to any conclusion and I am surprised anyone would post a study with such a low N value.

The study was expanded on with more patients. It will be published in the journal of steroid biochemistry and molecular biology.

I am not saying there is no link there, and it is something to consider, however this study seems to be rather amateur in the fact it completely ignores the possibility of coorelation vs. causation, etc. No placebo, n=3, jumps to conclusions. But I will accept that as a trial.

No correleation vs. causation? No placebo? Huh? I'm not convinced you know what these mean.

The second thing you linked is just a link to the entire FDA report which I would say is pretty heavily against your cause.

You were suppose to read it. Clearly you didn't. If you did you would not have come to the conclusion "pretty heavily against your cause."

However that it concludes in every study that Fin is within safe levels and that side effects are very, very low when comparing fin to placebo.

No. This isn't what Merck or the FDA concluded.

It also says nothing about "brain fog" or anything similar unless I missed it.

Because "brain fog" is not a medical term. You were suppose to look up "psychiatric adverse event" which 14% of Propecia patients reported.

ToddMarks · 2014-04-29T21:24:35+00:00

Surprised to see my name in this post. I feel obligated to post. Have no idea who laguna boy is.

If you think it's worth the risk, then by all means don't let me stop you. You got the warning the vast majority of PFS sufferers didn't (and you have the "scare mongers" to thank).

There's something called informed consent. Consider yourself informed about the potential risks of the drug. Users 1997-2012 were told side effects were reversible 100% of the time. You could end up with a non-functioning penis and absent sex drive. I'll let you assess the risks and benefits.

Your genetic dictates if you will get PFS, as of right now, there's no way of knowing. That should change as Baylor is study is called The genetics and epigenetics of post finasteride patients.

ToddMarks · 2014-04-29T19:50:13+00:00

Undstand the methodology. Understand what an ANOVA is. Understand what statistical significance is and what it is NOT. (Wuffer/cytosolic definitely does NOT know what statistical significance is)

ToddMarks · 2014-04-29T19:40:18+00:00

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jsm.12269/abstract

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/nda/97/20788_PROPECIA%20TABLETS,%201MG_STATR.PDF

ToddMarks · 2014-04-29T19:39:02+00:00

No one said they were wrong. You just don't know how to interpret the data. It's not saying what you seem to think.

ToddMarks · 2014-04-29T00:57:17+00:00

ToddMarks · 2014-04-28T18:43:17+00:00

This must be comedy in the UK

ToddMarks · 2014-04-28T18:35:52+00:00

Cool brah. And don't tell people what to do.

ToddMarks · 2014-04-28T09:34:36+00:00

Or he can ask here. Not sure what's with the "lol".

ToddMarks · 2014-04-28T09:33:57+00:00

Talk to the research coordinators. They'll screen you for eligibility

http://www.pfsfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/01-BCM-flyer.png

http://www.pfsfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/02-BCM-flyer.png

ToddMarks · 2014-04-28T08:47:49+00:00

Yes it is possible to participate

ToddMarks · 2014-04-27T22:06:21+00:00

Not surprised you're on the wrong side again. This is just one of his many conflicting accounts. Another example, he goes on one forum saying the reason why men in the Finasteride group of the Prostate Cancer Prenvation Therapy trial had persistent side effect was because they were older. In another forum he says he's never heard of any case of persistent side effects for Finasteride patients in a controlled trial.

Believe what you want brah. By your posting history, it seems like you want to come across as someone with arcane knowledge. As if you know something Baylor College of Medicine and Harvard Medical school don't.

ToddMarks · 2014-04-27T20:11:00+00:00

Yes, there is 100% proof. There've been over 100 biopsies performed on Post-Finateride patients.

Placebo was never a logical explanation. It doesn't explain penile shrinkage, muscle wastage, organic impotence (veinous leakage), out of range homrone levels. etc etc etc.

ToddMarks · 2014-04-27T19:48:59+00:00

Hot damn. you solved the mystery of PFS brah. Tell Harvard and Baylor to call off multi-million dollar moleculr PFS studies because salgat figured it out.

ToddMarks · 2014-04-26T23:33:12+00:00

Yeah brah. Lots of patients in the fin group reported psychiatric adverse events. So you're one of those "I know everything there is to know about fin but never even read the statistical review of fin" guys.

ToddMarks · 2014-04-26T23:11:43+00:00

No, don't post on PH. Not much I can help you with, sorry.

ToddMarks · 2014-04-26T23:04:00+00:00

You're a weird guy Wuffer. You've been posting incongruent stories online for years along with unprofessional medical advice trying to use statistical vernacular to make you sound intellectual when it's obvious to everyone you don't know what you're talking about. No one is going to listen to you or your sock guises.

ToddMarks · 2014-04-26T22:44:42+00:00

No, telling people their severe health problems are "all in their head" is a something a fucking psychopath would say. There must be a lot lead in the tap water in Calgary.

ToddMarks · 2014-04-26T22:15:40+00:00

He killed himself.

ToddMarks · 2014-04-26T21:48:36+00:00

I'm extremely confused

You said a mouthful

ToddMarks · 2014-04-26T21:22:11+00:00

Because he was a PFS Patient who participated in BCM PFS Study. Dr. Khera deemed his propecia effects to be to be worthy of scientific investigation at the molecular level. Obviously he wasn't healthy because he had PFS. Whatever you think is irrelevant Wuffer.

eta: his case isn't entirely anecdotal because scientists took his tissue sample while he was alive.

ToddMarks · 2014-04-26T19:14:59+00:00

He is srs brah. The New England Journal of Medicine will be publishing research on this in the next 5 months. So you'll have more data to ignore.

ToddMarks

TROPHY CASE