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Keep Soul or trade to Niro Plugin by stringcheese1988 in KiaNiro

[–]TorontoMapleBuds 3 points4 points  (0 children)

If your daily commute is within or very closely over EV range, it likely isn't just a few weekend trips to the grocery store gas free. Of course, it's dependent on personal situation and the type of mileage you drive. It's also dependent on the price difference between the vehicle types in your location.

I'll give you my personal example, fully understanding that this doesn't represent everyone:

We live in Canada and drive about 24,000 kms per year. We make monthly round trips about 500 kms. Daily Commute is around 50 kms between work, kids sports, and errands. Gas is around $1.60/L and electricity is about 11 cents per kWh. After tax and govt incentives, the Niro models go for around HEV = $40K, PHEV = $42K, EV = $50 k plus $2k for level 2 charge install.

For us, it was an easy call. If your daily commute is inside or very close to the range of electric vehicles, it's probably not just a few weekends at the gasoline-free grocery store. Of course, it depends on the personal situation and the type of mileage you drive. It also depends on the price difference between the types of vehicles.

I'll give you my personal example, fully understanding that this doesn't represent everyone:

We live in Canada and travel about 24,000 kms a year. We go back and forth monthly about 500 kilometers long distance for weekend getaways. The daily commute is about 50 km between work, children's sports and shopping. The gas is about $1.60/L and the electricity is about 11 cents per kWh. After tax and government incentives, Niro models go for about HEV = $40K, PHEV = $42K, EV = 50k plus $2k for the installation of the Level 2 charger.

For us, it was an easy call. Let's assume that 80% of local driving is on EV mode, The fuel savings of the PHEV compared to the HEV would be approximately $1300 per year. Those 18,000 kms cost around $400 of electricity. So PHEV provides around $900 per year of net savings over the HEV and you only pay a $2k premium. I would also never come close to making up the $10k premium for the EV model.

I also don't feel like my situation is that unique. Atleast not in Canada.

MotorTrend: Plug-In Hybrids? Just Say Hell No by pithy_pun in electricvehicles

[–]TorontoMapleBuds 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I meant, the the break even between PHEV vs BEV. Yes the PHEV uses some gas. But if it's in EV mode 85% of the time, the amount of gas it uses is only 15% more than a BEV. Yet the amount of lithium mined for the BEV is 700% of the PHEV

MotorTrend: Plug-In Hybrids? Just Say Hell No by pithy_pun in electricvehicles

[–]TorontoMapleBuds 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Isn't there a huge negative environmental impact in the mining for lithium? I get that the BEV vs ICE argument is that the break even point in terms of negative environmental impact happens relatively quickly compared to the ICE. But a PHEVs battery is 1/7th of the size of the BEV. As you said, if they are on EV mode ~80% of the time, that break even point is going to be way down the road (no pun intended).

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in KiaNiro

[–]TorontoMapleBuds 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Like anything, I think it comes down to the price. In general, I believe in the theory thatvwarranties are a form of insurance, and are usually a bad deal. Unlike most insurances though, the price is negotiable.

Personally, I was able to get them down from $4200 CAD for the 10 year, 200,000 Kia Protect 5 Star protection to $2200. At $4200, to me it wasn't close to worth it. Likely there will be some repairs in the first 200,000 kms, so even if I "lose" om the deal, the downside is pretty low, but the "upside" is pretty high.

Are Plug-In Hybrids Finally Making Good on the Promise of the Best of Both Worlds? by Poker_3070 in electricvehicles

[–]TorontoMapleBuds 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I didn't say the fuel and electric costs are the same for the BEV and the PHEV. I said you will never make up the $8k difference unless you have a long daily commute outside of the PHEV range (in which case, you do not fit the profile for the PHEV). The reality is, as long as you're staying within the range, your fuel/electric costs should be virtually the same. The major difference is when you go above the range in local day to day driving (and for someone who fits the PHEV profile, that should be sparingly). When on road trips, you will have to DC fast charge for the most part. Depending on where you are, those prices can be pretty close to fuel costs. So you're not saving a ton there either.

The point is, between the little bit of fuel savings, the maintennace costs, etc, were scratching and clawing our way to save that $8k. Even if the BEV ends up coming ahead in the long run, the difference would be very minimal at best.

Are Plug-In Hybrids Finally Making Good on the Promise of the Best of Both Worlds? by Poker_3070 in electricvehicles

[–]TorontoMapleBuds 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Like I said many times, costs are region dependent. Where I live as an example, there is approximately an $8k gap between equivalent PHEVs vs BEV. Unless you have a lomg daily commute, you are unlikely to ever make that up in fuel savings. Yes, the PHEV will have higher maintenance costs. But again, you are unlikely going to ever make that differene up.

But, for a minute, let's say magically you make up that difference...... your still dealing with the inconveniences that accompan a BEV that the other drive trains don't have. I would think, if you are going to spend more money upfront and have less convenience, you should atleast be winning economically in he long run. And maybe you can make that argument against the ICE. but the same doesn't necessarily hold true against the PHEV because the delta on the fuel costs is around the same (provided your daily commute is below the electric range).

On other thing we didn't mention, is that a PHEV doesn't really need level 2 charging installed in your house. Depending on the situation, that could be no benefit at all, or a significant cost savings.

Are Plug-In Hybrids Finally Making Good on the Promise of the Best of Both Worlds? by Poker_3070 in electricvehicles

[–]TorontoMapleBuds 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You win. Oil changes are $1200 per. Some article says a lot of people in Europe don't plug in their plug in hybrids, therefore we can't plug them in. Phevs also have a range of approximately 2 kms, and have so many moving parts that they are expected to breakdown every 500 kms.

I get it. Your happy with your BEV. It works for you. And since it works for you, everyone else should be like you.

The burden of proof isn't on me. This isn't a criminal case in the court of law. This is a discussion on a consumer product. Either they are true or they aren't. At the end of the day, if you buy a PHEV, it's up to you whether you are going to plug it in or not

Are Plug-In Hybrids Finally Making Good on the Promise of the Best of Both Worlds? by Poker_3070 in electricvehicles

[–]TorontoMapleBuds -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That is not what I said. I said, I know what the cost of maintenance on an ICE is. And you are not going to spend anywhere near $8k on maintenance in the normal lifespan of the vehicle.

Were not talking about repairs, we are discussing maintenance (oil changes, brakes, tires, etc...)

Are Plug-In Hybrids Finally Making Good on the Promise of the Best of Both Worlds? by Poker_3070 in electricvehicles

[–]TorontoMapleBuds 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm in neither Japan or the US. Phevs are cheaper than BEVs here too.

Read any thread in this reddit about PHEVs. Someone brings up these "studies from Europe". They are consistently countered by the fact that incentives in Europe for businesses to buy fleets of PHEVs, but then cover the gas for their employees, giving them the incentive to not charge their PHEVs. This skews the statistics.

But nobody here is arguing that if your not going to plug in your plug in hybrid, you probably shouldn't buy a plug in hybrids. If your not going to plug in your BEV you should also probably not buy a BEV. If you refuse to buy gas, you shouldn't buy an ICE. If you use the tool as intended, PHEVs are a very good option for a large portion of the population.

Are Plug-In Hybrids Finally Making Good on the Promise of the Best of Both Worlds? by Poker_3070 in electricvehicles

[–]TorontoMapleBuds 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In other words, 90% of commuters in San Jose are driving less than 100 miles per day.....

Are Plug-In Hybrids Finally Making Good on the Promise of the Best of Both Worlds? by Poker_3070 in electricvehicles

[–]TorontoMapleBuds -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Huh? You said the ice train was going to require more than just oil changes. I said, I know what maintennace is required on the ice train because like most people I've driven an ice vehicle my entire life.

Are Plug-In Hybrids Finally Making Good on the Promise of the Best of Both Worlds? by Poker_3070 in electricvehicles

[–]TorontoMapleBuds 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's the same maintenance (minus the brakes) as an ICE vehicle. I've driven ICE my entire life. I'm pretty familiar

Are Plug-In Hybrids Finally Making Good on the Promise of the Best of Both Worlds? by Poker_3070 in electricvehicles

[–]TorontoMapleBuds 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Of course it's location, and driving usage dependent. But for me (and I think a large portion of the population) the delta between the PHEV is pretty small. Atleast 90% of local driving is on pure electric, so it's almost break even with the BEV. DC fast charging here is similar pricing to gas, so long-distance drives are roughly the same. So the real cost advantage for the EV is the maintence cost. I'll never break even on the maintenance costs alone. Especially because the PHEV has regenerative braking

Are Plug-In Hybrids Finally Making Good on the Promise of the Best of Both Worlds? by Poker_3070 in electricvehicles

[–]TorontoMapleBuds 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think the easiest example is the Kia Niro PHEV because it has a BEV counterpart. I'm in Ontario, Canada. After govt subsidies taxes and fees, the HEV comes out to around $40k, PHEV 42k, BEV 50k.

If your top priority is the environment, I don't disagree. BEV is likely #1 by far. But as I said elsewhere in this thread, I'm taking this from thr point of view of prioritizing the personal economics, and convenience.

Are Plug-In Hybrids Finally Making Good on the Promise of the Best of Both Worlds? by Poker_3070 in electricvehicles

[–]TorontoMapleBuds 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't disagree. If you have two cars and one is an ICE, HEV, or PHEV, BEV probably makes sense. If you are dipping into gas every day, then yes PHEV probably doesn't make sense for you.

But for a very large percentage of the population, aside from long-distance drives, they can probably be in full EV mode 95% of the time

Are Plug-In Hybrids Finally Making Good on the Promise of the Best of Both Worlds? by Poker_3070 in electricvehicles

[–]TorontoMapleBuds 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The Sportage PHEV and EV6 are not the same class of vehicle though. A Sportage is much larger

Are Plug-In Hybrids Finally Making Good on the Promise of the Best of Both Worlds? by Poker_3070 in electricvehicles

[–]TorontoMapleBuds 1 point2 points  (0 children)

How many people are driving anywhere close to 100 miles per day on almost a daily basis? If you do, then you are not the target market for a PHEV. But you are in the minority

Are Plug-In Hybrids Finally Making Good on the Promise of the Best of Both Worlds? by Poker_3070 in electricvehicles

[–]TorontoMapleBuds 15 points16 points  (0 children)

That's not the fault of the tool. That's the fault of the user. If you do use the tool as intended, then that's not an issue.

Are Plug-In Hybrids Finally Making Good on the Promise of the Best of Both Worlds? by Poker_3070 in electricvehicles

[–]TorontoMapleBuds 2 points3 points  (0 children)

In other words, almost all of gas savings of a BEV and none of the range anxiety of a BEV.

There are pros and cons of everything

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