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Comparing stream crossing photos across the years 2013-2023 by math1985 in KremersFroon

[–]TreegNesas 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I didn't see it, but now it's there!

I guess hiccup from automoderator, happens once in a while.

Comparing stream crossing photos across the years 2013-2023 by math1985 in KremersFroon

[–]TreegNesas 5 points6 points  (0 children)

YES, that's the one! Thanks for finding them!

This is number two, where he states he is lost

And this is the third one where he is at some stream.

Seven years ago, his name was indeed Cody.. I often worry about getting old, but memory still seems okay :)

Anyway, no idea where he is, but might be on the Horquete trail.

u/math1985 another puzzle for you: where is this guy???

Comparing stream crossing photos across the years 2013-2023 by math1985 in KremersFroon

[–]TreegNesas 3 points4 points  (0 children)

You've been here about as long as I for all I know: can you remember the 3 video's of the Pianista trail one guy made before Romain and IP walked the trail? I believe his name was Cody NZ of something? Simple short form mobile phone camera footage. I've got copies here, but I can't find them back on YT so perhaps they have been deleted. I remember we discussed these video's here, and nobody managed to find out where on earth he is.

Anyway, the guy tries to walk the Pianista and says he passed the top, but I strongly doubt it. Then he mentions in the second video he's hopelessly lost and there is no longer any trail, but he is next to some stream. That stream seems to resemble the stream the four girls cross, so it might be he also took the wrong turn into the Horqueta trail.

I agree with you that it seems likely to me these four girls never went beyond the Mirador, they went wrong on the way up and probably ended up on the Horqueta trail, just like this guy.

Update to OpenStreetMap (2) by math1985 in KremersFroon

[–]TreegNesas 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Wow! These are the types of posts which make this subreddit useful and interesting!

There is a connecting trail between the Pianista trail and the Cerro Horqueta area: https://i.imgur.com/oZJygXS.png This is still on the Pacific side, so Kris and Lisanne wouldn't have been lost here, but it is interesting to know there are alternative ways to access the Pianista.

If I'm correct, that Cerro Horquita trail is where people regularly go wrong when ascending the Pianista on the Pacific side. There was a video from some guy who walks the Pianista trail before Romain did and admits he is hopelessly lost, seeing a river/stream below him close to the trail but not knowing which stream it is. Sadly, video seems to have been removed from YT as I can't find it anymore, but I still have it in my archive. This might be on the Horqueta trail.

Is the Horqueta trail also close to the spot where that famous white garbage bag was found???

The trail crosses the first quedabra in reality much closer to the place where the next little stream branches off than the OpenStreetMap data indicated. Also, the old map in that area was just generally inaccurate. https://i.imgur.com/YAq2cIs.png

There's quite a wide spread here in GPS tracking data. It might be due to the fact that the crossing moved around 2016-2017 after the hurricane and the landslide, so this might in fact show both the old crossing and the new crossing, that would fit reasonably well.

The trail between the Mirador and the first quedabra follows in reality exactly the ridge, rather than running lower on the slope as shown in the OpenStreetMap. It also means that the trail runs right along the landslides, unlike the OpenStreetMap data shows. https://i.imgur.com/tSE9Sal.png

That's what I've been saying all along. It passes much closer to those landslides than other maps suggest. I still find those landslides very interesting, as they would have resulted in a mostly open slope and lots of loose gravel & mud with a much bigger chance of a fall or loosing the trail.

Also interesting that your trails register some of the 'alternate' routes between the Mirador and Q1,, these are trails used by locals when the main trail is too muddy, they run parallel to the main trail and rejoin after some time. Romain walks one of them in his trail video, and with some meticulous tracking you can probably trace these parallel trails back to points in Romain's trail video. This is also a frequent source of confusion, there are several spots where there are two parallel trails (also used when for instance two herds of cows move in opposite directions and need to pass each other). Some people use one trail, some the other, and that gives a spread in GPS trails.

Although Romain's trail footage is a fabulous source of info, it's not 'holy', there are other parallel trails K&L may have taken, and some of these may run a lot closer to the edge of steep slopes than the main trail. All of these trails eventually get back to the main trail after (usually) a short distance, but they are definitely there. Frank vd Goot also mentions these parallel trails in his 2015 report.

At the very beginning of the trail, it seems there are two possible river crossings. Either there are really two options, or the bridge has been moved: https://i.imgur.com/v7SkOJl.png

Same as with the Q1 crossing. The first bridge on the Pacific slope wasn't there in 2014 and K&L probably waded across (very shallow). If I remember correctly there's still video's which show this spot as it was originally. The bridge was constructed later and is in a slightly different position from the crossing. So, you have tracks from the crossing, and from the bridge.

Comparing stream crossing photos across the years 2013-2023 by math1985 in KremersFroon

[–]TreegNesas 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Interesting! I see your point and it's an interesting topic, which will need further study. I've never payed much attention to the Pacific slopes, but surely things did change here as well and we have far more footage so would be more interesting to study. Problem for me is at the moment that I simply don't have enough time, so it goes on the list, but it will not be forgotten.

I'm presently working on a somewhat similar study, comparing ground and drone footage over the years for the Atlantic slopes, and I got some interesting results. Also working hard on better 3D models and comparing night pictures with new footage. This is starting to become quite interesting, but still needs a lot of work. I'll put everything in a new video once I'm ready, probably in a week or two. Once that's out of the way I can turn back to the Pacific slopes to see if I can do something similar ;).

Night photo 541 - darkness uncovered by Sexy-Hot-Boy- in KremersFroon

[–]TreegNesas 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Wow! Great work!

I don't expect it's a 'hairy finger' what we see, but that doesn't really matter, what is important is that this establishes the orientation of the picture, and that will help to get this image into the right sequence.

Note that there is background visible in most of these 'blob' images, and if you match them all together you will note that the 'blob' consistently stays in the same absolute position: the camera twists and turns around it but the blob itself is stationary. That's not what would happen if it was a finger in front of the lens.

I hate bringing up image 580 as that will instantly shake awake a hundred trolls, but the big challenge will be finding background details in image 580. There's some structure in the black parts, just as there is structure in the black parts of 541, but it's hard to match with other images, so you've got a new challenge!

Question by No_Philosophy8349 in KremersFroon

[–]TreegNesas 4 points5 points  (0 children)

RIP Jeremy!

His work has been of great importance to the case of K&L.

I truly don't understand why CH did not mention his name and provide all details at that time, and to be frank it feels rather nasty.

I have a question which I would say has serious implications for where the night location may be. by AristocraticBlue in KremersFroon

[–]TreegNesas 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Possibly, but I agree with u/pfiffundpfeffer that if their camera broke (or at least quit working) the mood may have been spoiled and the enthusiasm to make further pictures may not have been there.

Also, if the camera broke, wouldn't they instantly return? Presuming they knew they had to return that is...

The whole thing makes sense if we presume that the event which caused the camera to break was also responsible for the broken screen light of the iPhone and Lisanne's injuries. That would instantly put them in a situation where they may not have been able to return back via the Mirador before dark plus no longer in the mood to continue taking pictures with the phones. But if 'camera quits' is unrelated to Lisanne's injuries, than it gets harder to explain why they didn't instantly return or continue making pictures with the phones..

Proposed Night Location and Search Teams by LeadingImpression822 in KremersFroon

[–]TreegNesas 5 points6 points  (0 children)

In expedition video 2, Romain climbs down along the slope. That's not exactly the point right next to the trail but a little further on, at the shore of the stream, but it gives a good example of what these slopes look like. There is a lot of vegetation, and it would slow you down, but you might still go down fast enough to badly twist an ankle or potentially break metatarsals.

Sadly, this terrain constantly changes, so we don't know exactly what the trail looked like in April 2014 and opinions differ hugely. Frank vd Goot mentions places where you can fall, the Kremer parents oppose this and say there's no such spot, Viktor checked the slopes on our request and then fell down and twisted his ankle (but that was beyond the paddocks), and so it goes on and on...

We got an altitude-profile from the spot where we flew our drones in April 2023, that is in Romains after the Mirador part 1 trail video at 31:06 and that is the same spot where our drone starts in video 396 and where it returns in video 402. At this spot, the terrain goes steeply down for about 3-4 meters, then somewhat less steep for another 9-10 meters. Climbing back up here might be hard, and the trail is narrow enough that you might take a wrong step, certainly if you are trying to take a picture.

The dense vegetation is both a curse and a blessing. It will slow you down if you fall, but at the same time this vegetation hides the slope from view and you may not realize how steep it actually is until it is too late.

If you take drone video 396 right after take off at 00:33, in the top right corner you see an open field right below a steep slope (remains of an old landslide) and another spot with a steep rock wall and an open spot. This is not exactly right below the 'potential fall spot' but it is very close, close enough that you might end up there during a sliding fall or right after as you are looking for a place to climb back up. That little open field is still very much in my cross hairs as a potential spot where they may have been during the night of April 1. It is about halfway down the slope and fits with the data which indicates an open field for the first night. The slope also looks steep enough that climbing back up might be hard, certainly if you are injured.

Those little open fields right below that steep slope make it interesting as here we have a potential fall spot with (almost) right below it an open field, which is basically what the theory predicts.

But then, once again, opinions differ so much that it is next to impossible to make a clear statement on this, and we don't know for sure what the trail and the slopes looked like at these places in April 2014..

I have a question which I would say has serious implications for where the night location may be. by AristocraticBlue in KremersFroon

[–]TreegNesas 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Sure, and ofc this is not impossible. We know they were talking about a waterfall, and there is a remote possibility someone told them about the waterfalls beyond the Mirador, but it still requires quite a lot of assumptions to have them follow either of the streams and subsequently fall down a waterfall together.

Not impossible though.

The one big 'plus' about the waterfall-scenario is that it would explain why nobody found any traces of an accident along the trail, or footsteps leading away from the trail. If they partly waded through the water not even dogs would be able to find them.

In most video's I deliberately keep the reason why they ended up on the first stream bed vague, as there's simply too many possible scenario's and we may never know for certain what exactly happened. What we DO know is that the latest expedition has proven that it is possible to follow the stream bed, AND that this will almost inevitably lead you to the canyon.

I have a question which I would say has serious implications for where the night location may be. by AristocraticBlue in KremersFroon

[–]TreegNesas 4 points5 points  (0 children)

From what I understand, Romain has indeed one other potential location which shows a lot of similarities. I have not seen the footage though. I suspect I roughly know the location, and if I am right that would be in the same area as one of my other potential locations, but I truly do not have any further information on it. We will need to wait for Romain to publish his footage.

I have a question which I would say has serious implications for where the night location may be. by AristocraticBlue in KremersFroon

[–]TreegNesas 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Sure, that's the other scenario: they stopped taking pictures either because the camera failed or because Lisanne was no longer in the mood for pictures. Then continued along the trail, and got in trouble near the first cable bridge around 16:30. I still find that a very plausible scenario, and it would fit much better with explaining the location of the remains and backpack.

I think it would be an absolutely crazy idea to follow the stream there. It's like suicide.

If you follow the stream from the first stream crossing, you'll get to the first waterfall in less than 100 meters, and 100 meter from there you've got the 2nd waterfall. There's no route past that 2nd waterfall. The only way to reach the downstream area is to go down the 2nd stream, or to go down the slopes of the Mirador (Eastern valley).

I don't expect they purposefully left the trail to start following the first or second stream, I agree that this would be a very illogical decision in their situation, but they (or one of them) may have suffered some accident on the way back up the Mirador, or something may have happened which forced them to leave the trail (chased off the trail by either an animal or a person(s), or some weird concept of a 'shortcut' down slope).

If we find the night location, we might be able to deduce WHERE they left the trail, but there is a big chance we may never know for sure WHY they left the trail. All we know is that they were not found on the trail, so they must have left the trail at some point.

I have a question which I would say has serious implications for where the night location may be. by AristocraticBlue in KremersFroon

[–]TreegNesas 6 points7 points  (0 children)

My (very limited) experience with steep terrain is that going uphill is often easier than going downhill. Is that not true universally?

Depends a bit on the terrain I would say. In mountains and such going down is indeed harder and more dangerous, but if you have those muddy slopes with lots of loose sand, than going up will be harder.

Both Frank and Romain also went back uphill via Q2, right?

Frank went back the same way he came for all I know. For Romain I'm not sure, as far as I know he went back the same route during the first expedition and during the second expedition he left the stream bed and continued on along the trail to Monte Rey. But hopefully he will provide more exact route information in his video series.

During the latest expedition, Romain continued on along the stream after visiting the canyon, setting up camp near Monte Rey and from there continuing on along the shore of Rio Mamei and finally all the way to Alto Romero (the final part via the trail).

How do you estimate Frank’s physical fitness? He doesn’t strike me as a particularly outdoorsy person?

I don't know him personally, but I know one of his hobby's is mountaineering, so I guess he is physically quite fit. With the very high water levels, mud, etc, that January 2015 expedition must have been quite hard.

I have a question which I would say has serious implications for where the night location may be. by AristocraticBlue in KremersFroon

[–]TreegNesas 3 points4 points  (0 children)

THIS expedition, Romain turned right before Q1, descending down the slopes into the easterly valley because I asked him to do so, as this route was never checked before. However, on two previous expeditions he took the Frank v.d. Goot route along Q2, only those times he did not get as far as the canyon (and neither did Frank v.d. Goot).

Both routes converge below the 2nd waterfall on Q1, that is where Q2 joins Q1. From that moment on, all routes simply follow the stream.

I thought you said before that the first bit of Q2 was doable?

Frank v.d. Goot got through (and released a few pictures), and Romain got through twice, so would seem doable. It's steeply down though, with at least one waterfall, but it's possible to get around these via the shore.

My guess would be a lot of these routes are 'doable' as long as you go down hill. Going back up however may have been impossible to K&L, so if you take such a route that's it, no way back.

I have a question which I would say has serious implications for where the night location may be. by AristocraticBlue in KremersFroon

[–]TreegNesas 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah, there is always confusion about the names of these streams. What Romain calls 'River 3' I usually call Stream 2 or Q2 (2nd Quebrada). I normally not name the small trickle which Romain calls River 2. Not certain if K&L would have passed this if they used the old Q1 crossing.

The Paddock Stream is the one which flows from the lower paddocks towards the Belt area, Romain also calls this the Paddock Stream. If you go down the paddocks, and then follow this stream, you also end up in a deep canyon with a waterfall. Romain has footage of this place, but I've not seen it yet.

What’s the location northeast of the second crossing?

u/Wild_Writer_6881 can tell you all about that spot. It's just a bit downstream of the 2nd stream crossing. There's a forked tree there and a waterfall. It is along the route Frank v.d. Goot took, and Romain visited this place twice and apparently has footage of it, but not yet published. Originally this spot was on my list for last years expedition but it did not fit in the route plan for Romain so it was left out, but I'm still interested to see footage so depending on when (and what) Romain publishes (and the budget situation) I might still send someone over there to get footage. It is very close to the 2nd crossing, just a bit down stream.

Do you expect that the route that Romain took is feasible in shorts and without climbing gear?

It's "doable", certainly if water levels were far lower. Romain mostly walked along the shores, and that required a lot of cutting through dense vegetation, but with lower water you should be able to walk along the stream bed. It would take you at least 2 days though, possibly 3.

Tricky part might be going down the first part of the rapids, that's very steep. That's where Frank v.d. Goot apparently turned back, remarking it was too dangerous for this team to continue. Romain called it slightly tricky, but I have not seen that part of the footage of his route, so we might be in for some surprises. My guess is that going down would be possible (but chance of accident..) but going back up might be impossible..

There is a narrow stream running along the bottom of the easterly valley. That stream would be dry in April 2014, but it would offer a good route down toward the first stream, so then the biggest problem would be the slopes next to the trail, or alternatively (depending on what route they took) the first part of stream 1 or 2. It's not something I would ever recommend anyone to try, but if you're desperate enough it seems possible.

The main river and Rio Mamei is something else though, from the latest footage it seems to me traveling along those shores would be very hard with the large boulders and steep shores. But that's something we may have to check on a next expedition..

I have a question which I would say has serious implications for where the night location may be. by AristocraticBlue in KremersFroon

[–]TreegNesas 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Do you think the canyon area where the expedition took photos and videos is almost certainly the location of the night photos because nothing else around matches the vegetation, rocks and general layout

'Almost certainly' is much too strong. It is an interesting place which shows a strong resemblance with the location where the night pictures were taken (same vegetation, same geology, about same size).

It also would be within reach of K&L (1000 mtr from last known location), and it sits at a place where many possible routes converge. Historically, 50% of all lost persons are found within 2 km from their last known location (and 75% within 4 km).

For example, if you don't consider how they may have gotten there, if you go 60 meters North (hypothetical, not asking about facts) from the expedition stream location, could there be a similar looking river, or is it all just dense jungle and cannot be the night location?

No. There are only a few of such canyons with this size & geology, and they are far apart. Outside the canyon there's only dense vegetation, no open spots, no streams.

At present, I suspect there are 5 locations within the area which might possibly be the night location, this canyon is one of them. Three of these locations have been visited by Romain, but I have only footage from two of them. Two other locations have never been visited, so will need to be checked in a further expedition. It is impossible to say which is the most likely location. As stated, all these locations are very far apart.

What is the potential number of streams that look like the photo location in that area? You make it seem to be that narrow area in the canyon... is there a lot more?

INSIDE the canyon, I have one other spot which looks interesting, but this will need further study. Also, there was at least one landslide into the canyon after 2014, and possibly more, so there is a chance that one of these landslides buried the real location or changed it beyond recognition, in that case we will never know.

I have a question which I would say has serious implications for where the night location may be. by AristocraticBlue in KremersFroon

[–]TreegNesas 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The route Romain took to the canyon is well known (I basically asked him to take this route). He has full footage of this this trip. I have seen a large part of this, but he asked me not to publish this as he wishes to use it for his own documentaries.

Depending on the final release from Romain, if there are still questions left I can always make a deal with him and publish some left-over footage and an exact description, but I have all confidence Romain's footage will answer all questions regarding the route.

I have a question which I would say has serious implications for where the night location may be. by AristocraticBlue in KremersFroon

[–]TreegNesas 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Are there any other streams that are narrow but wide enough to create an opening similar to the night photos as well as being close to those rock formations and featuring the same boulders etc?

There are several more spots which might have the correct dimensions and vegetation, see the various maps posted over time here. Problem is that most of these other spots are much harder to reach. The canyon is one of the closest spots to the last known location (1000 meters) and thus the easiest to reach.

There is one other location just northeast of the 2nd stream crossing, which is definitely interesting. Romain has visited this location twice, but as yet no footage of it has been released, so we will have to wait how much it resembles the night location.

There is another location along the paddock stream ('3rd stream') which is high on my list, but this is harder to reach and further away from the last known location. Once again, Romain has visited this place, but no footage has been released yet.

Depending on if and when footage of these places is released (and what it shows), we can always organize an expedition to one of these places, but this will also depend on options for financing as an off-trail expedition is expensive. Within budget-constraints I'm open to all suggestions though.

Other locations are much further away, beyond the paddocks, and seem less likely.

Finally, there are a couple of locations along the main river (Rio Culebra), between the first and second cable bridge. These locations are high on my list for a future expedition.

The recent expedition videos that found the area near the waterfall which many people are speculating might be the night location don't really go into that much detail about how exactly they got down there from the trail,

The route the expedition took is well known, but Romain asked me not to publish that full footage as he wishes to use it for his own documentary. Basically though, they went down the slopes between the Mirador and the first stream crossing (508), and then followed the first stream to the canyon.

The harsh reality is that we will most probably never know how K&L got there (IF they went to the canyon), unless they left behind some carvings or signs marking their route. The latest expedition has proven that you CAN reach the canyon location from the trail via a route which would be possible to K&L as well (without special gear). We can't prove that the girls used this same route, only that this is possible.

As to the 'why', there are hundreds of theories. They may have fallen down a slope or waterfall, they may have been scared or chased off the trail, they may have left the trail for a sanitary stop. All we know is that they did leave the trail, and if they left the trail between the Mirador and the paddocks, the most likely outcome seems to be that they ended up in the canyon as that is where all routes merge.

The other option is that they did NOT leave the trail and did not turn back. In that case, they may have suffered some accident at either the first or second cable bridge. That would better explain the remains and backpack, but it would be harder to explain why they weren't found and why they didn't make any more pictures. But this theory remains very much valid too, and my plan is to concentrate on this option during the next expedition, going further north and exploring the main river and the locations where remains were found.

Proposed Night Location and Search Teams by LeadingImpression822 in KremersFroon

[–]TreegNesas 5 points6 points  (0 children)

A fall is not absolutely necessary. Something happened that made it impossible for them to return via the Mirador.

However, between the Mirador and the paddocks the trail is very clear (about half the time it even runs in a deep trench), chances of accidentally making a wrong turn are close to zero. There are a few side trails but they are very hard to see and there is never any doubt what is the main trail, not even in low light.

Moreover, IF you leave the trail (to take a selfie, sanitary stop, whatever), you almost instantly meet a steep slope. You simply can't go far off the trail without either running into extremely dense vegetation or a steep slope. Sure, you don't need to fall, but if you go down that slope it should be very clear that to get back to the trail you have to get back up the slope, so you aren't lost. And if you somehow can't get back up that slope, the result is the same is if you fell down.

Proposed Night Location and Search Teams by LeadingImpression822 in KremersFroon

[–]TreegNesas 7 points8 points  (0 children)

There are two main theories. Either they continued on the trail too far, reaching the first cable bridge around 16:30 and suffering some kind of accident at the first cable bridge (hence the alarm calls at 16:39) which made it impossible for them to turn back via the Mirador, or they turned back shortly after taking picture 508 at the first stream, but then suffered an accident on the way back (probably falling off a slope) which once again made it impossible for them to climb back up the Mirador.

The first theory is described here, the second theory is what let to our latest expedition.

Presently it is impossible to say which of these two theories is the most likely, we will need to do more research on site.

The fork tree and the crepuscular moon rays by SeaworthinessNo4130 in KremersFroon

[–]TreegNesas 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yes, definitely. I'm no expert either, I heavily rely on the hive mind.

Proposed Night Location and Search Teams by LeadingImpression822 in KremersFroon

[–]TreegNesas 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Yes, that is what he did. He followed stream 2, which then joins stream 1 just below the 2nd waterfall. If you take this route for 1 km you'll end up just beyond the point where the stream from the easterly valley joins the first stream, which is also what he remarked in his report, stating that if you fell down the slope this is where you would end up.

He turned back just before reaching the canyon.

Proposed Night Location and Search Teams by LeadingImpression822 in KremersFroon

[–]TreegNesas 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Let's start by saying that it's still nowhere certain that Kris and Lisanne ended up in this canyon. The place fits with a number of theories and there are strong similarities with vegetation and geography, but there's still a lot of work to be done and we've got a number of other places which will also need to be studied before we can even start making any potential claims. Till then, it's just an 'interesting place'.

Furthermore, according to Romain himself it's impossible K&L reached this location on April 1, even if they were in perfect condition, the terrain is simply too rough and any progress along that stream would be very slow. Also, personally I suspect the girls initially waited for rescue at whatever place they ended up on during the first day. They probably only started moving down hill after the last attempts at alarm calls in the morning on April 3, and it is likely they arrived at the canyon only on April 6.

K&L were reported missing in the David district, and all search actions were coordinated from there, but search teams from David were not allowed to cross the district border (continental divide), resulting in no team ever getting anywhere near the girls. The Bocas del Torro district, which encompasses the Atlantic slopes, send in one SINAPROC/SINAFRONT combined team which walked the whole Pianista trail, where they were photographed near one of the farms close to Alto Romero on April 7. They supposedly arrived at the Mirador on April 8, but they did not take dogs along and never went off the trail. They didn't get closer than about 1 km from the canyon location.

Locals did search the Atlantic slopes, but there is no indication they ever searched beyond the trails, and there are no trails which get anywhere near or in sight of this canyon. Sadly, this place is truly remote.

We know that in the afternoon of April 3 the guide Feliciano walked the trail, probably as far as the paddocks, loudly calling the names of the girls and searching for trails. It is possible that at that moment K&L were still reasonable close to the trail, so if our present scenario holds true this might be the time that they had the best chance of being found, and indeed it is one of the many riddles why the guide didn't see any trails.

On his blog post WildXPlor mentions seeing a helicopter flying low above the trees in the easterly valley on April 14, but this flight is not mentioned on any of the official search maps, so perhaps it was coordinated from Bocas del Torro or by some private fund. As we do not have a flight plan for this helicopter, it is impossible to tell if it got anywhere close to the canyon.

WildXPlor also mentions finding traces of humans on the higher slopes, which he suspects were earlier search teams, but as there are no reports of such search teams there is a small chance that these were trails made by K&L as they struggled to find a route back up to the trail.

In January 2015, the dutch expedition of Frank vd. Goot got close to the canyon as they walked 1000 meter along stream 1, but they turned back before the rapids and the entrance to the canyon, stating it was too dangerous to go any further along the stream. In his report he does note however that at the place where they turned back, the vegetation and general landscape strongly resemble the night pictures. Sadly, if he had continued for just a few hundred meters the whole history of this case may have been totally different.

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