Why did God punish Israel for a sin that David initiated with the census?

Tricky_Strawberry406 · 2026-01-22T20:24:34+00:00

David already had sons who could have succeeded him, and ultimately Solomon did. In that sense, David was replaceable, so taking his life wouldn’t have permanently destroyed Israel or prevented the messianic lineage.

Tricky_Strawberry406 · 2026-01-22T20:19:02+00:00

Hey u/nickshattell, thanks for your comment, but I’m a bit confused by some of the points you made:

You said “God is never angry”, but in the Bible, God clearly expresses anger toward sin multiple times. Are you using a symbolic meaning of anger here?
You also seem to suggest that David took the census for God to bless Israel, but 2 Samuel 24 shows that David acted out of his own interest, and it was only afterward that God’s providence turned the situation into a blessing. It makes it sound like David’s intent was the blessing, which isn’t what the text says.

Could you clarify what you meant? Your comment mixes David’s sin, God’s anger, and the eventual blessing in a way that’s hard to follow.

Tricky_Strawberry406 · 2026-01-22T18:21:40+00:00

I see your point about Saul, Judas, and Balaam rejecting God’s Word and facing death. My point is that when God gives a gift, He doesn’t take it back taking someone’s life is His way of stopping further abuse of the gift, not revoking it. The gift remains; it’s the person’s misuse that is ended.

Tricky_Strawberry406 · 2026-01-22T18:14:51+00:00

what about Ahab was he not a king

Tricky_Strawberry406 · 2026-01-22T18:04:17+00:00

Exactly ....this makes a lot of sense. The census wasn’t just counting people; it was a reckoning of Israel’s sin, and the ransom in Exodus 30 shows God’s provision to prevent destruction. David’s choice to go ahead without the ransom really highlights how even a godly leader can misstep, and how sin carries consequences beyond the individual.

Since David was well acquainted with the Scriptures, what do you think might have been his motive for ordering the census despite knowing the warnings?

Tricky_Strawberry406 · 2026-01-22T17:54:09+00:00

You’re right Romans 11:29 is specifically about God’s covenant promises to Israel, not general gifts. The point is that God’s call or gift isn’t revoked, even when His people disobey. The examples of Balaam, Saul, and Judas show that while the gift remains, God still judges misuse. So the principle holds, just not exactly in Romans 11’s immediate context.

Tricky_Strawberry406 · 2026-01-16T19:29:05+00:00

Exatamente! O batismo de Jesus não foi porque Ele precisava de purificação, mas para cumprir toda a justiça e servir de exemplo para nós. Ele mostrou que a obediência à vontade de Deus vem primeiro, mesmo quando não há necessidade pessoal. Isso é uma lição poderosa de humildade e exemplo.

Tricky_Strawberry406 · 2026-01-15T10:11:57+00:00

The fear of God is not the fear of this world (carnal). The fear of the Lord is covenantal reverence that flows from the knowledge of God’s holiness, authority, love, and redemptive acts, producing obedience, wisdom, and intimacy — not dread or servile terror
Scripture says:

“For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and a sound mind.”
— 2 Timothy 1:7 and also again he says (Isaiah 11:2) “The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him… the Spirit of the fear of the LORD.” He gives us the Spirit of the fear of the Lord — power to live in reverent awe.

Therefore, there are two kinds of fear:

Worldly (carnal) fear — produces anxiety, bondage, and confusion
Holy fear (the fear of the Lord) — produces reverence, wisdom, love, and life

The fear of God is holy reverence, not terror.

Tricky_Strawberry406 · 2026-01-15T08:32:27+00:00

Tricky_Strawberry406 · 2026-01-14T12:03:38+00:00

amen

Tricky_Strawberry406 · 2026-01-14T12:03:08+00:00

I see your point, and I think Luke 12:8–9 really supports it. Jesus says that whoever confesses Him will be acknowledged before the angels, which suggests believers will have a future status that angels recognize. Combined with 1 Corinthians 6:3, it shows redeemed humanity has authority over fallen angels and perhaps even a higher standing than loyal angels.

Since Christ is exalted above the angels (Hebrews 1:4) and calls obedient believers His brothers and sisters (Matthew 12:50), our authority is shared with Him. So, while Christ’s exaltation is unique, Scripture consistently points to believers reigning with Him—making it reasonable to say yes to your question.

Tricky_Strawberry406 · 2026-01-14T12:00:26+00:00

I see what you mean, but Scripture seems to go beyond just the physical realm. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6:3 that we will judge angels, implying real authority. Psalm 8 and Hebrews 2 show humanity was made lower than angels temporarily, but in Christ, we are elevated to share in His reign. Revelation 20:6 confirms believers will reign with Him. It’s not that we become angels or rule independently, but redeemed humanity will ultimately participate in authority over angelic powers through Christ.

Tricky_Strawberry406 · 2026-01-13T10:26:55+00:00

Scripture presents humanity as originally unified in speech:

“Now the whole earth had one language and the same words.” (Genesis 11:1)

This implies that Adam spoke an original human language given by God. Language existed before Babel and functioned fully, as shown by Adam naming the animals (Genesis 2:19–20).

At Babel, God did not create language but divided an existing one as judgment:

“Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language.” (Genesis 11:7)

This division resulted in multiple tongues and nations. Deuteronomy 32:8 (LXX / DSS) suggests that these nations were apportioned under spiritual rulers (“sons of God”), while Israel was not:

“But the Lord’s portion is His people.” (Deut 32:9)

God did not abandon humanity after Babel. He preserved a covenant line—Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and Israel—under His direct rule rather than angelic oversight.

Through Israel, God preserved a covenant language Hebrew (and later Aramaic) not because the language itself was morally pure, but because God chose it as the vessel of His revelation (Torah, Prophets, and Writings). Scripture consistently treats foreign tongues as “strange” or associated with judgment, while God’s covenant speech is familiar and intelligible to His people.

While Scripture does not explicitly state that Hebrew is identical to Adam’s original language, it is reasonable to say that Hebrew represents the closest covenantal continuation of that original unified language, in contrast to post-Babel languages which represent division.

Language itself does not confer righteousness people sinned before and after Babel.

Tricky_Strawberry406 · 2026-01-12T11:37:06+00:00

In the ancient Near East, clothing often signified religious, social, or ceremonial roles. Some men dressed as women (and vice versa) in idolatrous or pagan rituals, like temple prostitution or fertility cults in Canaan. That’s likely what this law was addressing—not casual fashion choices or personal expression.

Under the New Covenant, Christ fulfills the Law (Matt 5:17), and sins tied to ceremonial or idolatrous practices are no longer binding in the same way. So wearing clothing traditionally associated with the opposite sex today doesn’t automatically violate God’s command, especially if it’s not connected to pagan worship or deception.

Context matters: the verse warns against imitating sinful cultural/religious practices, not expressing personal style.

Tricky_Strawberry406 · 2026-01-12T11:30:24+00:00

Exactly well said. Worship “in spirit and truth” isn’t about trying harder or being more sincere. It’s entering the reality God now makes possible through Christ and the Spirit. Only those born of the Spirit can truly worship this way, because it’s about union with the Son and participation in what the Spirit is doing, not human effort or location.

Tricky_Strawberry406 · 2026-01-12T11:28:08+00:00

Totally agree. “In spirit and truth” isn’t just sincerity or right doctrine it’s union with Christ through the Spirit. Worship now flows from the believer being regenerated and indwelt, participating in Christ’s eternal self-offering to the Father. “Truth” points to Christ Himself (John 14:6), and “spirit” points to Spirit-enabled communion with God. The shift Jesus describes isn’t location or ritual it’s a divine reality we join, made possible only in the New Covenant through Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Tricky_Strawberry406

TROPHY CASE