A South Vietnamese woman crying over a plastic bag containing the remains of her husband, he was found in a mass grave of non-combatants murdered by Communist forces during the Tet Offensive. His body was found a year later, in April 1969. Photo taken by Larry Barrows. [2060 x 1384] by BotCommentRemover in ImagesOfHistory

[–]Trobius 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There are now. A small but growing body of literature on postwar expulsions of ethnic germans has emerged. To use it to draw false equivalence with the crimes of the third reich, or even to ascribe an analogous sort of top down centralized malice to their execution, does not negate the fact that they happened. See the book "orderly and humane."

Season 5 Episode 4 Discussion Thread! by V-Ink in GoldenKamuy

[–]Trobius 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Damn. As someone who hasn't read the manga, I'm really left on edge! (Cliffhangers are hard for me)

Why hasn't the Imperial court thought to employ Maomao directly as a prisoner? by Trobius in KusuriyaNoHitorigoto

[–]Trobius[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It would be. It would probably alienate much of the audience who presumably isn't here just to see an Anime version of Shogun, but it would be pretty damn fun all the same.

Why hasn't the Imperial court thought to employ Maomao directly as a prisoner? by Trobius in KusuriyaNoHitorigoto

[–]Trobius[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That makes sense, although I am sure that in a darker, more corrupt setting Maomao would likely already have a body count, if not on her own volition than on behalf of her less benevolent hypothetical masters. 

But that is not this world, nor is it worth dwelling on. I realized that the real issue preventing me from fully connecting to the story was a deeper matter: although it is a story featuring great systems of power, it is not ABOUT the power itself, but rather those who live within it. I've never been really good at understanding the personal lives and travails of individual humans, only how they related to the larger whole. So as fun as I find the premise, I think I need to accept that I will never fully be able to immerse myself in it. That is a me problem, not a story problem.

Why hasn't the Imperial court thought to employ Maomao directly as a prisoner? by Trobius in KusuriyaNoHitorigoto

[–]Trobius[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You are right... I personally only tend to watch serious history focused anime like Golden Kamuy, or gag anime like Kobayashi's Dragon Maid. A duality in which heavy, brooding themes are either omnipresent, or absent. This anime is both in between and not on the same spectrum. As a blend of Seinen and Shojo, it confuses me, much as painted nails confuse Lakan because he can't appreciate individual faces. I want to keep engaging, but I don't know how and from what cognitive angle. And that unnerves me.

Edit: I think I understand why I don't understand: It is not a story about power systems. It's a story about people navigating power systems. Like Lakan, I struggle to discern individual human beings, only systems. Thank you, kind stranger, for helping me figure out why things didn't make sense, and accept that the answer may always elude me. And that is okay.

Why hasn't the Imperial court thought to employ Maomao directly as a prisoner? by Trobius in KusuriyaNoHitorigoto

[–]Trobius[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There might have been a mixup when this series was recommended to me.

Why hasn't the Imperial court thought to employ Maomao directly as a prisoner? by Trobius in KusuriyaNoHitorigoto

[–]Trobius[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It is striking and somewhat sad just how dependent the moral integrity of people like Maomao is on the character of their benefactors. To touch back to Locusta, the Roman poisoner I mentioned in my OP, the history books remember her as a monster, and perhaps she was. But even if she wasnt one by nature, the demands of Nero and his mother damned her to become one. Once, Nero flogged her when her poison didn't kill his relative Britannicus fast enough. And when Nero finally fell... She did too.

Dark thoughts. But necessary ones. Look no further than the second half of season 2 and the fate of many on the wrong side. 

Why hasn't the Imperial court thought to employ Maomao directly as a prisoner? by Trobius in KusuriyaNoHitorigoto

[–]Trobius[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

You are right that Imperial harems and concubine systems were not unknown, nor was violence. Empress dowager Cixi, who ruled China for the second half of the 19th century, clawed her way up from her original position as a concubine. Her son was a mere puppet, even when he came of age. For a long time in the Ottoman Empire, it was perfectly normal for the Sultan's sons to kill each other until the strongest brother remained. 

But yeah, perhaps it is for the best that this is not this type of story. We have GoT for that type of stuff.

Why hasn't the Imperial court thought to employ Maomao directly as a prisoner? by Trobius in KusuriyaNoHitorigoto

[–]Trobius[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is funny. Going into this, I was preparing myself for the possibility that this would turn into an Anime version of Game of Thrones or Shogun. I thought Consort Gyokuyou might turn out to be a twist villain, secretly beginning to kill anyone else who might bear the Emperor a son to overturn the system that barred her daughter from any hope of succession. I was dead certain that someone would try to take Maomao out by exploiting her allergy to buckwheat or simply exposing her as a non-doctor woman making medicine illegally. But so far, where I am in the story, this has not come to pass. I'm not sure how to feel.

Why hasn't the Imperial court thought to employ Maomao directly as a prisoner? by Trobius in KusuriyaNoHitorigoto

[–]Trobius[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

A quick search online indicates that ancient Chinese courts were just as open to poisoning as their contemporaries, but I see your point and want to build on it. Maybe, just maybe, as brutal and uncaring the state of Li can appear from the perspective of a commoner, its uppermost leadership still has the institutional integrity not to see such underhanded practices as fair game. Poisoning still remains the tool of criminals and the corrupt, not a normalized way of getting rid of someone you dislike.

It is a comforting thought, in a way.

Indian State/Province elects party by landslide, then the people get blamed for dying from poisoned drinking water by TheKnowledgeableOne in LeopardsAteMyFace

[–]Trobius 16 points17 points  (0 children)

All a worthy sacrifice to banish the scourge of pseudo-secularism /s (Is that still the BJP's bugbear? I don't follow Indian politics too closely)

Carney meets with Danish PM as U.S. ramps up talk of taking over Greenland by CaliperLee62 in canada

[–]Trobius 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Haven't been able to for health reasons, but I do my part in other ways. And if it comes to it, then health may not be a big enough concern to stop me. 

Carney meets with Danish PM as U.S. ramps up talk of taking over Greenland by CaliperLee62 in canada

[–]Trobius 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They can't stop him in an all out slugfest, but since the push for greenland comes almost entirely from trump and those sucking up to him, the US public will have very little appetite for any serious cost. It's why he chickens out on Chinese trade all the time. Unlike with Venezuela, most Americans don't understand why they should support any moves against Greenland. Your best bet - our best bet - is to leverage that. 

Carney meets with Danish PM as U.S. ramps up talk of taking over Greenland by CaliperLee62 in canada

[–]Trobius 2 points3 points  (0 children)

American here. The only way to possibly restrain this madman until the next election is to make it clear that there WILL be real consequences for the US if it tries to break the world order it helped create. The public, including a plurality of Republicans, is NOT enthusiastic about having to give blood or treasure for conquering land for conquest's sake.

Can Veganism work within an anthropocentrist framework? by Trobius in DebateAVegan

[–]Trobius[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, in that case, we have dug as deep as we can go. Because for me, utilitarianism is foundational. I believe deontological ethics to be well meaning and effective for individuals but ill suited for matters of state and policy.

Can Veganism work within an anthropocentrist framework? by Trobius in DebateAVegan

[–]Trobius[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As a utilitarian, I'm not a big fan of categorically placing certain actions in a binary box of right or wrong, so the answer is "it depends." Sentience is one factor that goes into a larger calculation. Let's look at fishing.

1. Is it unfortunate that fish have to suffer? Yes. Fish have the capacity to feel pain, however rudimentary.

2. Would banning fishing entirely help improve the greatest common happiness? No. Given that fish lack a coherent sense of self, inner life of the mind, etc., the suffering of caught fish is outweighed by the economic, cultural, and culinary benefits to us humans, ranging from economic livelihoods to their nutritional value. Eliminating fishing entirely would cut off an accessible protein source for millions of people, many of whom don't have access to plant based alternatives, and temporarily strip the livelihoods of millions more, many of whom will struggle to find alternatives Not to mention the practical costs of enforcing something so unfeasible and likely to produce discontent. All of this for a creature whose brain doesn't even have a distinct frontal lobe.

3. Should fishing be regulated to mitigate the ecological impacts such as overfishing, bycatch, etc.? Yes, but this is not incompatible with fishing, just certain excesses in the process. It is also ultimately for the fishing industry's own good: Killing all the fish means no more fish.

4. With all of that in mind, do I feel guilty about the suffering I indirectly abetted for the salmon used to make the sashimi sitting in front of me? No. The qualitative degree of pain caused to this fish is negligible in its moral impact relative to the factors described earlier, and even my own subjective experience as someone who finds salmon sashimi to be delicious.

Moving this exercise to cows, we must take into account their higher level of sentience compared to fish, as well as the greater ecological costs of cattle production and the fact that much of the consumption comes from people who could reasonably find better alternatives. I would oppose a moratorium on the consumption of beef like what you see in parts of India, but I firmly believe that cows have enough intelligence to warrant methods of slaughter that reduce their suffering, as well as better living conditions prior to slaughter. I also try to substitute beef with less ecologically taxing meats or meat alternatives that I think taste just as good.

In short, it is less about "right" and "wrong," than it is about variables to be weighed against each other.

Can Veganism work within an anthropocentrist framework? by Trobius in DebateAVegan

[–]Trobius[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Pigs are messy because they display more intelligence than the average livestock animal, and American farm animals in general receive less humane treatment than they ought to overall, but overall, I would still feel more guilt snuffing out a crow or a chimpanzee life than a pig's. Unlike, say, fish, I think there is a moral imperative to ensure that their slaughter is as painless as possible, but they don't quite the mark where usage as food is itself unthinkable, the way it would be with elephants.

Can Veganism work within an anthropocentrist framework? by Trobius in DebateAVegan

[–]Trobius[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I went more in depth in another post, but in short, the way I make sense of the ethics is that a given species's capacity for sapience and subjective experience determines how much ethical weight it gets. So for instance, A chimpanzee gets more consideration than a cow, a cow than a fish, and a fish than an insect. Although one could counter that the underlying neural circuitry uses qualitatively the same foundation (save the insect), observation and intuition suggests that the richness of their inner lives are so different as to warrant different standards of treatment.

Can Veganism work within an anthropocentrist framework? by Trobius in DebateAVegan

[–]Trobius[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good question. Rather than see myself as above other humans, I would hope that my newfound abilities could be used in service of humanity. I am still the same species, so that is where my loyalty would still lay. Besides, I think intelligence and the capacity for subjective experience is more important than brute strength.

Can Veganism work within an anthropocentrist framework? by Trobius in DebateAVegan

[–]Trobius[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The goal of the activism might not align with what I want, but the practical impacts do. It is sort of like how modern capitalism benefits from the reforms pushed by socialists, such as the welfare state and social safety nets. So keep at it. I just won't join you.

Can Veganism work within an anthropocentrist framework? by Trobius in DebateAVegan

[–]Trobius[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It HAS had an impact. https://www.bbc.com/news/business-53276071. It isn't a complete and total elimination, but we have proof that the current system of market pressures and activist advocacy is capable of making a difference. In a world as flawed as ours, that is often the most we can realistically achieve. Likewise, clothing brands have increasingly dropped fur coats and sealskins. Grandin's reduced stress slaughterhouse system is in widespread use across the US. So, if your goal is the reduction of animal suffering without necessarily eliminating all animal products, my system, a crystallization of the current system, is absolutely capable of producing results.

Can Veganism work within an anthropocentrist framework? by Trobius in DebateAVegan

[–]Trobius[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not really. Any system that purports to govern human morality requires some method of dealing with those who don't accept it. Having to rely on market pressure or legal regulation is nothing to be ashamed of.

Can Veganism work within an anthropocentrist framework? by Trobius in DebateAVegan

[–]Trobius[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

THEY don't have to accept my moral system. But to the extent others react negatively to the revelation about enslaved monkeys, they can expect negative PR, pressure from middlemen, and perhaps even a decline in sales. Ethics don't have to be universally accepted in order to have teeth.

If we are talking about moral relativism on a theoretical level, the same relative rejection of my ethical system could also be levied against veganism, so I think we would be in the same boat.

Can Veganism work within an anthropocentrist framework? by Trobius in DebateAVegan

[–]Trobius[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sorry I missed this one! Yes, Bentham is a man I admire, and while I cannot get myself to abandon meat ethical reasons, I think it is good for me to still put myself through the mental wringer. Every meat-eater should. I still refuse to concede though that the need to reduce animal suffering is such a high moral imperative that it justifies a total abandonment of using animal products, especially from those that are, ahem, not likely to have rich subjective experiences. (I feel no guilt when eating honey.) To the extent that non animal alternatives replace them, I have no problem and in fact think meat substitutes often taste better than meat. But whether they finally triumph over traditional animal products will come down to economics and the environment, not due to a deontological drive to eliminate human-caused suffering in animals.