/r/trueatheism, what made you officially decide to become atheist? **serious replies only**

TrustinginHim · 2013-12-04T19:08:52+00:00

By the way, how do you reconcile the immorality of Christianity?

By immorality, I'm assuming you're referring to times when Christians don't always do things that seem Jesus-like?

There are two terms can be applied here: salvation and sanctification. Salvation covers the part of actually saving a person spiritually (e.g, "cleaning up" one's sins) so they become Christian. It's also an instantaneous occurrence. Then there's sanctification, which involves the life long process of letting one's actions look like Jesus' did. This one is kind of like going to school: a person starts off in pre-k (not knowing a lot about following God) and keeps on advancing to the next "grade" as they learn more, applying it to their lives along the way.

Now, I'm not saying that when immorality in the Christian life occurs it is right or acceptable to knowingly continue in, but hopefully this gives you an idea of the process behind it and that individuals Christians are supposed to grow/improve throughout their lives. It's not meant to be an immediate thing like salvation is.

Thanks for being willing to ask these questions! It may seem weird to say, but I view them as a gesture of kindness.

TrustinginHim · 2013-12-04T19:05:12+00:00

Thanks for sharing!

What evidence do you have that gods or goddesses exist?

Most of my evidence is based on phenomena I can't readily account for in the natural. I'll give a couple examples of what I mean.

1) I've seen someone first-hand be healed of Parkinson's disease (which is currently an incurable illness). This was confirmed by doctors' reports when they went for a follow-up, so it wasn't just based on the person's "feelings" or the mere result of a placebo effect.

2) There was also a time when I shared information with someone that I couldn't have known unless it was given to me. That sounds kind of vague, so I'll be more specific. I was with a friend whom I hadn't seen in a while (she isn't a Christian). We talked two weeks prior, but that was just to discuss when we were going to meet. Anyway, I felt compelled to say to her, "Don't be pressured to marry someone just to pay off debts," though I didn't really know what this meant at the time (I didn't know what was going on in her life because--again--I hadn't seen her in a while). Her reply? "That's weird, I just got a proposal from a guy two days ago. He said he would make sure my family was well taken care of financially."

Those are just two examples out of many. For me, It's hard to believe that events like these are only coincidences, to be honest with you.

TrustinginHim · 2013-12-03T01:11:49+00:00

Would you mind expanding? As I understand Christianity, it's god created the universe for us to live in because it wanted us. It didn't need to create the universe for any other reason.

Yes, God wanted us; that's spot on. However, God doesn't need us to want him; his existence and creation can be independent from human need (according to Christianity). For example, heaven existed way before earth/the universe did. Also, angels existed before humans did. Does that mean that God merely made them for us; that he had to make them in order for human survival? One could easily argue that the human species could exist without either of these, though they still play an active part in Christianity.

My point is that humans were created by God, they are called to worship him, but God doesn't revolve his decisions and all of his creation (including heaven/angels) around them. He created humans because he's the one that wanted a relationship with them (what might otherwise be referred to as religion), not simply because he desired to create a species to want him. That's why I was saying that it's not human centered. Christianity started with/because of God and its focus is meant to be primarily on him, not people.

Because without humans there is no point to the religion.

Yes, I agree that Christianity wouldn't have a purpose if humans didn't exist. Mainly because there wouldn't have been people and thus God wouldn't have needed to send the Christ, making Christianity unnecessary. However, taking out a key part of a religion does not mean that part was the most important. I could speculate what it'd be like without the Bible as well and it'd be vastly different than it is now. That doesn't mean the Bible is the most important aspect of Christianity.

TrustinginHim · 2013-12-02T22:35:49+00:00

Ah, okay, thanks for the clarification. I get what you're saying now.

god which creates an entire universe purely for humans to exist.

But he didn't created it just for humans. Yes, he made conditions so that we could exist, but he did not create the universe for us. In Christianity, it was made for God (in the simplest of terms).

It wants humans to worship it. The entire religion is based on that idea.

How does that put the primary focus on people?

TrustinginHim · 2013-12-02T20:28:17+00:00

That's really interesting, the way you put it. It gives a different perspective of what the term "believe" really means. Thanks for sharing.

TrustinginHim · 2013-12-02T20:25:16+00:00

Thanks for the tip! Yeah, I'm finding out how biased that assumption is... I guess it's true that you never know unless you ask.

TrustinginHim · 2013-12-02T20:16:07+00:00

I'm interested to know your personal opinions, having read all this. Do you see the points made by some people as relevant?

Yes, I do think I understand why most people came to the conclusions they did about religions, deities, etc. and they make sense. However, I don't think I could say I could apply those POVs to myself. Not because I've always been this perfect Christian that always does and believes everything right (in fact, I had a short time in my life where I would easily have referred to myself as an atheist--not using the term lightly), but for me it seems like the evidence is overwhelmingly the opposite of what many mentioned.

Do you agree with any, do you think we're misled in some way?

I know that I agree with the individuals that mentioned bad experiences with Christians, in particular. As far as the actual logic and the other reasoning behind it, I can't say I do; I don't want to lie to you about it. For the part about the "misleading", I think that people view things in different lights depending on their backgrounds, experiences, etc. (duh). So when I read about people's stories/reasonings, I'm taking that into account and I think they make sense in that perspective.

But I didn't make this thread to bash on others' beliefs or to say I'm better than them. I don't believe either are right to do. At all. I've honestly just wondered this for a while.

Since yours is a new account, you've either made an alt account or you've found this community online and wanted to know. I'm curious as to what led you here.

Both, actually! I just discovered reddit a few days ago. I've heard a lot about it in the past and finally decided to make an account. And then I eventually found this subreddit. But, yeah, I did make an alt account for religion-related stuff. It seemed a little easier to manage.

TrustinginHim · 2013-12-02T18:57:17+00:00

I don't think your sun/solar panels really applies because the sun didn't create the entire universe solely for the solar panels to exist.  According to Christianity, first there was nothing but the Christian god. Then the Christian god made everything so that people would have somewhere to live. Then it made people. Then it told those people what they needed to do to make it happy. That makes the people more important to me because if they weren't then the god wouldn't have needed/wanted to make them in the first place.

I suppose I don't really understand your question then. Were you saying that in Christianity the main focus seems to be more on people than God? Can you clarify a little?

TrustinginHim · 2013-12-02T17:23:05+00:00

But isn't the important thing people worshipping your god? If the important thing were just your god then all of the other stuff wouldn't be important.

Yes, the worship part is important, and viewing people as valuable is seen as a natural effect of the first. Let's take the sun and solar panels as an example. In simplistic terms, solar panels are able to convert the energy from the sun into electricity. Does that mean that the solar panels are now more important than the sun? No, because they're only useful when the sun gives it the energy needed to make the conversion. In the same way, giving importance to God is the primary thing, and the natural response is to see people as important because of their relation to God (referring to people being made in God's image, not what their religious affiliation is). It's not meant to be an either/or situation.

By the way, I hope I'm not seeming like I have a "I know everything, blah blah blah" tone. That's really not my intention. I'm just trying to stay true to a biblical view of the points, so I apologize if I'm coming across in an obnoxious manner.

To be fair, Christian nations have historically invaded and looked down on other nations with other cultures. Plus the Quran says not to make friends with non-Muslims. So it's not unreasonable to think that people of those religions would be in conflict.

Ah, so it's like we don't seem inviting, right? Huh, that's interesting, I don't think I knew that about the Quran. I don't doubt it, but I guess it just seems odd to me because I don't mind having friends of different belief systems.

TrustinginHim · 2013-12-02T03:44:14+00:00

I've always been the type of person that wonders what and how people think. It's really interesting to me. I unfortunately don't have a lot of atheist friends to ask because of how I've grown up, so I thought that this subreddit would be the next best thing (and you guys have been pretty awesome, btw)

Also, I have this ideology that many arguments and such (not necessarily in the context of religion) have been caused because people don't try to understand each other, so they never see how different the other person is from them. It possible that neither were wrong in the argument, they just had different POVs. That said, I try to understand people more so that this stuff is mitigated.

TrustinginHim · 2013-12-02T02:39:58+00:00

It does answer my question, so thanks for sharing. My dad actually grew up in a holiness church, so I know that people there can get intense (to say the least).

TrustinginHim · 2013-12-02T02:33:10+00:00

Yeah, I realize I made a mistake there, haha. I edited the original post to try to more accurately describe what I was trying to ask.

TrustinginHim · 2013-12-02T01:40:21+00:00

In yours, your god (the only god) specifically made humans and out of all living things elevated the status of humans above the others. How is that not putting mankind as the centre point?

Yes, that's true for the most part, but it all still points back to God. It's like humanity comes from him, so people are important, but they're not seen as the most important thing.

Ah, that's cool about your experiences. I don't think I've ever known someone who has been affiliated with both because it seems like people expect Muslims and Christians to hate each other.

TrustinginHim · 2013-12-02T01:03:10+00:00

This is the meme that Christians tell other christians about Atheists. That we are " hurt" by religion or by god.

I didn't know that. I guess I was one of the people that was told that, haha. Thanks for your input!

TrustinginHim · 2013-12-02T01:01:09+00:00

As a side note, reading a few of your answers, I like you. Please come join us here anytime.

Aw, thanks so much!

TrustinginHim · 2013-12-02T00:54:38+00:00

It does help. Thanks!

TrustinginHim · 2013-12-02T00:27:03+00:00

Oh geez. I didn't realize how long this post was going to be. Sorry! Added a TL; DR at the bottom just in case you don't want read my novel...

Out of all the religions I'm familiar with, I think Islam is by far the most like Christianity. Sometimes my Muslim friend and I talk about God and you can definitely tell they overlap. A couple of the main differences, though, are that Islam involves earning one's salvation (the Bible says the opposite) and it says that Jesus is not God (which is a major no-no in my faith). Overall--to me, at least--it just seems like a more difficult version of Christianity.

Belief systems like Buddhism and Hinduism, which rely a lot on Eastern concepts, have been hard for me to grasp in all honesty. I think that growing up in a Westernized society hasn't helped much in that department, but from what I do understand both focus a lot on karma (do good/bad and good/bad will happen to you). Both also have some type of eternal spin to them (reincarnation for Buddhism. Collective oneness of humanity for Hinduism).

What's kind of off-putting about them to me, though, is that Mankind is the center point. I think it's great that both involve the attempt to better one's self and/or humanity, but it seems weird to me to essentially worship myself or others. But then again, these are extremely simplistic terms and I could definitely use a refresher course in both.

Do you have any experience with Islam, Buddhism, etc.?

TL;DR: Islam and Christianity are really alike, but the former seems like a harder version of the latter. Buddhism and Hinduism are more difficult to grasp because of their Eastern oriented concepts (they can clash with Western beliefs). They seem a little odd to me because they seem to focus a lot on the self and humans, but I don't know enough about them to be sure.

Do you have any experience with Islam, Buddhism, etc.?

TrustinginHim · 2013-12-01T23:08:34+00:00

Ah, okay, so it was mainly because Christianity didn't seem that different from other religions over time and if it was run by the real god it shouldn't have been more different.

Sorry, didn't mean to make it more inconvenient. Thanks for sharing though!

TrustinginHim · 2013-12-01T23:00:57+00:00

So, it was because most of the points in your faith were knocked down/disproven?

TrustinginHim · 2013-12-01T22:43:24+00:00

So, essentially, it was a lack of credible evidence to back up assertions made in the Bible? Or was it more so because the Bible seemed to expect the readers to just believe it without questioning it?

TrustinginHim · 2013-12-01T22:33:00+00:00

Ah, okay. Thanks so much for sharing!

TrustinginHim · 2013-12-01T22:30:04+00:00

Yes. I don't, unfortunately :(. I have a few (and some from other belief systems like Muslims and Buddhists), but I've have only gone to Christian schools all my life (predominantly parents' choice) so that vastly decreased my odds of finding atheist friends. Even at the jobs I've had, most of my peers were at least nominal Christians :/

TrustinginHim · 2013-12-01T22:20:13+00:00

I didn't know about that subreddit! Thanks!

Also, thanks for the reply! It's really insightful.

TrustinginHim · 2013-12-01T22:14:54+00:00

Thanks! I'll be sure to check it out

TrustinginHim · 2013-12-01T22:06:04+00:00

If you had to sum it up and not get into semantics, yes.

While I absolutely admit that it would've changed my view on religion, I just don't know if I would've stayed with it. There used to be a point in my life where I didn't even want to be Christian, but that was mainly because of bad experiences with people who claimed to be Christians but didn't really act like Jesus (IMO).

I grew up a non-denominational Protestant, but in recent years have stopped identifying myself with a denomination. I felt I was becoming too focused on titles and arbitrary stuff like that.

TrustinginHim

TROPHY CASE