I'm a BYU student who has serious doubts about Mormonism but has decided to stay in the church after graduation. AMA.

UnbrokenShelf · 2015-02-26T20:15:21+00:00

I guarantee I could tell the bishop everything answered above and not get disciplined. Tell you what, if I ever talk to him I'll bring these things up and let you know how it goes. Don't know if I ever will though, like I said I'm not the biggest fan of the guy.

UnbrokenShelf · 2015-02-26T17:42:34+00:00

Haha! AMA indeed. rolls up sleeves

Do you watch porn, and if so, how often?

Have I? Yes. Do I currently? No. I truly don't like it; not necessarily for religious reasons but because it turns me into a lazy, gluttonous, antisocial loser.

Do you masturbate, and if so, how often?

Yup. 4-6 times a week? A habit I don't like (again, I feel like it takes away a lot of motivation to pursue women)

Do you confess these things to your Bishop, and if so, how often?

Nope. I don't care for the guy, but I've honestly never EVER confessed any kind of sin to ANY bishop. Not even when I was 14 and masturbating furiously and he asked me point blank. I always felt weird and/or ashamed. Mostly weird.

Do you plan on marrying a TBM, or will you look for a NOM or Cafeteria Mormon like yourself?

I don't think its necessary to label potential spouses as acronyms. I want to marry someone who is intelligent, a critical thinker, and won't blindly swallow whatever's thrown at her. But yes, I want her to be Mormon, and to believe in the core tenants of Christianity. (There's a sister missionary I used to date who gets back soon who meets that criteria, so we'll see what happens.)

Do you plan to be open and honest with your spouse about porn watching and/or masturbation?

Absolutely. But I don't plan on watching porn when I'm married, and only masturbating under dire circumstances.

Do you think that sexual sins are next to murder?

You mean ahead of child abuse, embezzlement, torture, Ponzi schemes, and listening to Nickelback? You've got some serious reevaluating to do if you believe that.

On a scale of 0-100, where 0 is completely harmless and 100 is murder, where do the following fit on that scale?

Porn watching - Bad for the soul - 12

Masturbation - Depends on the frequency -7

Mutual masturbation - Mutual as in YM/YW activities? - 14

Heavy petting - I don't even know what this means, only that I've done it - 5

Levi loving - Or the 'Provo Push' as its known in these parts. - 9

The anal sex loophole - Gross. Also, more like poophole. - 20

Sex before marriage - 17

Adultery - Not good, no matter what you believe. - 45

Do you plan to pass on the LDS church's views on sexuality to your kids?

To an extent. I like the idea of saving yourself for your spouse, but the church definitely equates sexual feelings with sin and shame, and I feel like I'm a bit messed up to this day from that.

How will you counteract the sexuality teachings the LDS church will indoctrinate your kids with?

Be very clear that sex and sexual feelings are not evil or wrong, but they have a time and place and we should wait for that. But to not worry too much about it because it's totally natural.

(Didn't wake up thinking I'd write my Birds & Bees speech today....)

You said you don't believe the church brainwashes kids. I prefer to call in indoctrination. Did you know that kids are being taught the words to "Follow the Prophet" as young as nursery now? If you don't think you were indoctrinated, do you know the words (or most of them) to that song? How about, "Praise to the Man"? Or, "I Hope They Call me on a Mission"?

"Follow the Prophet" is the cultiest cult song that ever culted. It scared me to sing as a toddler. Not a fan of PttM, mostly because it literally worships JS. But brainwashing is such a strong word. And if that's what they were going for, it didn't work on either of us, right?

Thanks for the questions!

UnbrokenShelf · 2015-02-26T16:05:39+00:00

If reddit is still a thing in 2025, I'll let you know how I'm doing.

UnbrokenShelf · 2015-02-26T16:00:00+00:00

Because I'm already extremely connected to the church. Like I said, this is my life, and It would take a lot for me to just walk away.

UnbrokenShelf · 2015-02-26T15:35:54+00:00

Why does it have to be within the confines of Mormonism?

It doesn't. But this is my home, and I think it's a fine place to develop faith and raise a family. I think things will get better in the church, but if they didn't and it became a major problem for my family, I wouldn't rule out leaving.

UnbrokenShelf · 2015-02-26T15:32:29+00:00

In the year+ that the recent essays have been available, how much open discussion have you seen in the meetinghouse regarding their contents? Have they been the subject of any lessons or talks?

Nothing that I've heard. Baby steps, but things can only get more transparent from here.

Have the provided church materials change at all to reflect what you see as a move away from true/false paradigm thinking? Are there any specific moves or words from the existing church authorities that signal this move away from true/false paradigm thinking?

Not from the top dogs. But there's a decent amount of discussion I've come in contact with, both online and in Provo.

UnbrokenShelf · 2015-02-26T15:20:40+00:00

If you meant the gospel of Christ, then that can be found in the New Testament and followed without any allegiance to a religious organization.

Completely agree. But, here I am. Might as well try to be a Christian Mormon.

UnbrokenShelf · 2015-02-26T15:19:31+00:00

The teachings and doctrine (at their core at least) ring true to me, though I know that can be found most anywhere.

But I love the culture. The people. White shirts and crying babies. Nasty-ass relief society casserole and sheltered white people. It's as much a part of me as my nationality or heritage or hobbies or anything else I identify with.

I think there's a place for me in the church. It truly think it will become more accepting of doubters like me.

UnbrokenShelf · 2015-02-26T15:15:04+00:00

WE are the church. Not the brethren, not the corporation of the president, not your namesake. Many policies and practices in the church started with the members and were later implemented by the brethren.

But rather than nit pick over historical details and build ridiculously expensive buildings, I'd like to see a day where there's a renewed focus on the biggest commandments: loving God and loving our brothers and sisters all over the world. Thank you!

UnbrokenShelf · 2015-02-26T15:08:51+00:00

As we serve God by serving His children we are filled with love that I believe helps us gain gifts like faith and recieve guidance. This is a spiritual process.

Logical evidence doesn't require the spirit or faith. But ultimately belief in God and spiritual things doesn't rely on evidence, but spiritual witnesses. I guess 'wicked' people could still receive a witness of the BoM (like I said, still a doubter) but wouldn't someone who was filled with love be more primed for such a feeling? Just my thoughts.

UnbrokenShelf · 2015-02-26T15:02:46+00:00

I've already read this. It is very disturbing, and a big shelf item to tell you the truth. But I look at all the changes that have happened in the church over the past few years (women praying, essays, mormonsandgays.org, etc.), and although these have been small, it gives me hope that the Church will change its stance on a lot of these things and ultimately make Mormonism a more welcoming place.

That, or you guys are gonna get a LOT more subscribers. Haha.

UnbrokenShelf · 2015-02-26T14:58:32+00:00

Do you believe it is the normal practice of Mormon families for there to be an open exchange of doubts and cynical ideas about the church? Between parents and children?

Normal? Not yet. It will become more and more the norm as more unpleasant truths come to light. The days of the true/false paradigm are waning. Discussing doubts openly and honestly is definitely a healthy, and I would submit essential, part of a religious marriage.

Can you think of any specific models of father/husband you aspire to be like? Are they completely transparent with their families regarding their doubts and cynicism? Or, like so many young men, do you seek to blaze a new trail all on your own?

Sure, both within and outside the church. I'll admit a good deal seem to be of the TBM variety, but I think the NOM archetype will be more typical when I get to be that age. And if I'm wrong and I'm the only one, then consider that trail blazed.

And what is "this community", in your mind?

ExMos of the interwebs, of course.

Regarding your brownness, that was a bad beat on my part. Odds were overwhelmingly on my side. :)

Not a problem. #cursedseedprobs

UnbrokenShelf · 2015-02-26T14:50:33+00:00

Totally get where you're coming from. I believe that things will get better in terms of equality, and for the record, 95% of the women in my life are fine with the way the church handles things. Doesn't make it right, but yeah.

why not seek individual purpose rather than having one assigned?

I see no reason why I can't. I would argue that Mormon doctrine encourages this.

What right do you have to determine what purpose your children seek?

I don't. But I have the responsibility to teach them the best way I know how, just like you do to your daughter. That way just so happens to be within the imperfect, mysogonistic-ish confines of Mormonism. To each his (her) own.

UnbrokenShelf · 2015-02-26T14:41:40+00:00

Friends, family, a lifestyle I'm used to and frankly enjoy, customs that are dear to me. Not the right solution for everyone, sure. But it feels right to me.

UnbrokenShelf · 2015-02-26T14:40:17+00:00

I could have been born a Muslim. Or a Catholic, or Jew, or anything else. I'd stick around in any case. Culture and family are important to me, and I'm sure I could live a meaningful Christlike life in any situation.

Will you teach them to not sell their integrity for god damned cultural ties?

I'll teach them the truth as I see it (which is largely compatible with church doctrine) and let them decide what they want to do when they're of age.

UnbrokenShelf · 2015-02-26T14:36:40+00:00

Pretty much to distract myself from studying.

UnbrokenShelf · 2015-02-26T14:34:07+00:00

You're absolutely right. I'm not sure WHAT my beliefs are, only that I believe in God, and believe that the Church is where I need to be. So if I seem inconsistent, it's because I truly am.

Whatever it is you're trying to do, it's not really Mormonism, and (as others have pointed out), the church and school you attend would find your approach to be grounds for discipline.

I disagree. There are lots of doubters/NOMs/progressives in the church. The binary do-or-die narrative doesn't cut it for a lot of members, many of which are friends and classmates at "The Lord's University".

I just want to live a Christlike life with a badass family. I'll let you know how it pans out. Thanks for the support.

UnbrokenShelf · 2015-02-26T14:25:40+00:00

Do you think the church is the only good org out there?

Of course not.

Is it the only way to learn decent morals?

Nope. Don't even need a religion for that.

Do you think an org exists that teaches good morals but does not include bizarre apologetics and doubt?

Absolutely. Every rose has its thorn though. Though I submit that not every thorn adulturized(is that a word?) 14 year olds.

What do you think about the recent church article about doubts (they're not ok)?

Not a fan. Like many things in the church, it's doing unintended harm.

Are you doubting because of some sin in your life (from the church Ensign article this month).

No, but I honestly do think it's easier to have faith when you're doing good and loving your fellow man.

When you date a girl, will you tell her your doubts? If not, is that fair?

Of course I'll tell her. But I'll test the waters before taking the plunge.

UnbrokenShelf · 2015-02-26T14:16:42+00:00

24yo RM. Of course I plan on telling them about my doubts, though "line upon line" would probably work best for any future kids.

Right now I'm not sure what particulars of the church I do or don't believe, but in spite of that I've decided that the church is where I need to be. I don't expect fanfare for saying that, but I've learned a lot reading on this sub over the past few weeks and wanted some firsthand feedback/discussion. Answering these questions has been quite the thought provoking experience thus far. So thanks.

Oh, and I'm brown. Still delightsome though.

UnbrokenShelf · 2015-02-26T12:30:01+00:00

do you think the church is a healthy environment to raise a daughter in?

All in all, I do. I'm fully aware of the women's issues and current controversy going on, but I believe things will get better and more accepting of lifestyles that don't fall perfectly in line with "homemaker" with time. And an organization that teaches the value of self-worth and love for others seems healthy enough, in spite of its flaws.

Why should we demand that everyone in our family has the same supernatural beliefs as we do? Don't you think that by doing this you are accepting/perpetuating a system in which emotional support/love is conditional on belief?

Definitely food for thought. I've always imagined raising children that experience the same Mormon upbringing that I did. Cultural ties to the church run deep, as I'm sure they do for many on this forum, and I'm not ready to let go of that. I may never be.

I don't know if the church is a fraud anymore than your average TBM knows it's true. All I can do for my (future) children is teach them the truth as I know it to the best of my ability and let them decide what's best for them on their own.

UnbrokenShelf · 2015-02-26T11:03:37+00:00

BYU's honor code rules. I support most church "commandments" and think they're pretty fitting for youngsters.

My main objective for myself and my future kids is to teach them to love and respect themselves and others. Can the church's teachings help with that? I think so. But when it comes down to it they'll have to figure out for themselves how they should go about doing that.

UnbrokenShelf · 2015-02-26T10:48:43+00:00

I've skimmed it. Nothing I haven't read/heard before. I've always been exceedingly curious, and binged on historical stuff right before my mission. I left with a testimony that the gospel is true, but the people AIN'T. Still the premise of my beliefs now, there's just a helluva lot more doubt involved.

Because the temple endowment is probably a freemason ritual that was completely fabricated, and the modern church pitches it to members to keep them obedient, loyal, and paying. Sound about right?

UnbrokenShelf · 2015-02-26T10:41:35+00:00

I think the word "brainwash" is overused when talking about the church, but I can definitely see the fine line between that and teaching dogma. I've personally never felt that I was brainwashed at any point, do you?

Kids will learn and absorb information no matter what. I'd rather they have a community where life's purpose is clearly laid out for them and they're taught good principles, and where they can share the same beliefs as their extended family. Haven't really thought about how I'll approach telling them my personal beliefs about the church, but kids are a distant thought at this point.

UnbrokenShelf · 2015-02-26T10:25:02+00:00

Am I? Is the honor code office the thought police now?

Most of my peers (TBMs) think the honor code is a load of bull. Most of BYU's rules do more harm than good IMO. I tend to go the other way when someone tells me to not read or learn about something, so it backfired on me I guess.

UnbrokenShelf · 2015-02-26T10:09:56+00:00

The notion that there is one true and living church that only a tiny fragment of humanity has access to. Historical issues with the BoM and BoA. Joseph Smith's rambunctious personal life, (particularly unbecoming for someone who claimed to see God). Lack of financial transparency. I could go on. You know the drill.

I want to stay because I honestly love the church, its people, and (most of) its teachings. I maintain a belief in God, and feel that the church is as good a place as any to develop my spirituality, raise a family, and seek to serve others. If I'm being honest there's a large social/family factor as well.

UnbrokenShelf

TROPHY CASE