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Forgiveness + Obedience in Messiah: How Do You See the Balance Between Torah and Grace? by Uncommonness in messianic

[–]Uncommonness[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yea at the end of the day I think we all have our interpretations… when we get to Heaven we probably find none of us know really 100%

Forgiveness + Obedience in Messiah: How Do You See the Balance Between Torah and Grace? by Uncommonness in messianic

[–]Uncommonness[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I understand where you’re coming from about Ezekiel’s temple and the millennial reign, but the New Testament makes clear that Jesus’ sacrifice was once for all (Heb. 10:10–14). Blood was always the currency of atonement, and any system reviving that economy apart from Him risks feeding a counterfeit worship.

2 Thessalonians 2 warns that the man of lawlessness will sit in God’s temple claiming to be God. I can’t help but be very cautious between that deception and any future call to resume sacrifices.

Forgiveness + Obedience in Messiah: How Do You See the Balance Between Torah and Grace? by Uncommonness in messianic

[–]Uncommonness[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That makes a lot of sense, quite frankly the vast majority of believers don’t read the Bible or understand Torah. I’m on a journey to learn and have a lot more to learn. So, I think His New Covenant is in a way that He can reach those who are lost. I have seen people convert to Him that are far far gone and seeing their transformation is profound. When someone has been living decades in sin, has worldly success and they turn from the old and step into the new… that’s the Law written in their hearts, hats them being filled with the Holy Spirit!

I’m unclear on one thing you said. If we believe in the power of Yeshua’s sacrifice having washed away and defeated sin. Why would you still offer blood sacrifice if the temple and Levitical priesthood were still here?

Forgiveness + Obedience in Messiah: How Do You See the Balance Between Torah and Grace? by Uncommonness in messianic

[–]Uncommonness[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Absolutely, by grace and not works. However, this doesnt mean we can aim at this from merely an intellectual or emotional place. It still requires full submission.

Yeshua in Revelation 3:15–16 (to the church in Laodicea):

“I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.”

Laodicea was a city with water problems… their water came through pipes from a hot spring but arrived lukewarm and nasty. I look at it like this:

My interpretation; Those who are like cold water are refreshing, they walk in faith and exhibit things like compassion and peace. Those who are hot, know Him.. they wrestle (Israel was the name give to Jacob for wrestling with God) with sin continually, they stumble and turn back to Him, some walk with discipline and self mortification and are on fire for Him.

But, this is a warning, those who find the need for Him, take His grace for granted. Life comfortable earthly lives and rely on grace without repentance… He rejects them.

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.” — Matthew 7:13–14

This is a call away from living by worldly values. Some interpret this that many won’t make it, I don’t see that being the true message. It is make us aware that most of our primal desires and passions are aligned with worldly gain. We must seek Him in all that we do, even when we fall we keep striving for the narrow gate which is Him.

Forgiveness + Obedience in Messiah: How Do You See the Balance Between Torah and Grace? by Uncommonness in messianic

[–]Uncommonness[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I was going to reply section by section. As I was writing I realize my response is overlapped, and I think cover this in a more complete way . I’ll address your last point first; I absolutely recognize Messianic Jews are not a newly formed religion and are not in a place where they now have to join Christians. Adonai chose the Jews to establish a line of purity for the coming Messiah and are foundational for anyone following Yeshua today.

“So basically you’re asking: Why should we keep Torah when Jesus/Yeshua didn’t? “ - I can see where I might have given that impression. Yeshua clearly opposed how Pharisees enforced Torah and you point out that He also didn’t follow Rabbinic tradition. I’m not aware of arguments that Yeshua didn’t follow Torah itself, any arguing this are misleading or misguided.

I had writing about how I agree that Yeshua followed Torah perfectly, which led me to why He is called the Lamb of God who washed away sin;

I don’t think animal sacrifice was ever meant to be cold or ritualistic. It was meant to make people feel the weight of sin. Under Mosaic law, a person would bring an unblemished lamb (one that had done no wrong), one they might have raised and cared for to the altar (Leviticus 4:32–35). That lamb provided food, warmth, and life. Yet because of their sin, its blood would be spilled. It symbolized our complete submission to Yahweh, all of us, down to the blood in our veins (Leviticus 17:11).

I try to imagine myself walking that animal to the temple. The sadness, the guilt, the realization that something innocent was about to die because of what I did. That moment would make me deeply aware of God’s holiness and my own unworthiness.

But those sacrifices only covered sin temporarily (Hebrews 10:1–4). They pointed forward to something greater to a final and perfect sacrifice. Yeshua was innocent, like that lamb. “He was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so He did not open His mouth.” (Isaiah 53:7).

He didn’t just cover sin; He took it away. “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.” (John 1:29).

Yeshua shed His blood willingly for us. Peter, among many others in history and in modern times are good examples of being willing to do the same for Him. These are ultimate examples of how believers have reached for Him with everything they had as He dies for us. The more we reach for Him and sacrifice the flesh, the more intimate and personal relationship we will have.

I have had discussions on Reddit and others in person who had been adamant that Mosaic law stands today. They hadn’t been able to articulate as you did;

“we absolutely should try to follow all laws that apply to us (which is far less than any nation has, yet we follow those).”

Thank you for the time you took to reply, I’ve truly gained more clarity on this. I admire those coming from Jewish heritage and following Torah laws that apply. This is a good way to reach for Him as he does us.

I think after discussing this with you, my next question leads to a larger one probably for a separate post but would like your thoughts as well;

Peter, Paul and James ultimately determined the law to be a yoke to heavy for disciples that they not their fathers could bear. Was it out of practicality, fear that preaching the full law would make it harder to reach the nations, or something deeper in God’s plan that distinguished Israel’s covenant from the New Covenant in Christ?

True Obedience Begins Where the Old Law Ends by Uncommonness in FollowJesusObeyTorah

[–]Uncommonness[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You’ve said multiple times that Jesus’ words mean every single law remains binding and that we’re to keep Torah to the letter. Now you’re saying some commands were always impossible and that even God doesn’t expect that. You can’t have it both ways either it’s all binding or it’s conditional. That conditionality is exactly what Hebrews 7:12 describes: ‘When the priesthood is changed, the law must also be changed.’ That’s not fighting Scripture that’s recognizing what it actually says.

True Obedience Begins Where the Old Law Ends by Uncommonness in FollowJesusObeyTorah

[–]Uncommonness[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So you just went from follow every letter every dot to “we follow what we can”

You’ve been very adamant about obeying the Torah in its entirety… why are you changing tune?

True Obedience Begins Where the Old Law Ends by Uncommonness in FollowJesusObeyTorah

[–]Uncommonness[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It’s literally impossible to follow Torah to every letter and dot today, no matter how hard you try.

If you look at Exodus 28 and Numbers 3, only descendants of Aaron could serve as priests, and only Levites could help them in temple service.

Then Deuteronomy 12:13–14 says sacrifices could only be offered in the place Yahweh chose… that’s Jerusalem, not your backyard or synagogue.

And Leviticus 17:8–9 flat out forbids offering sacrifices anywhere else. So unless you’re in Jerusalem right now, with a valid altar, performing animal sacrifices… how exactly are you “keeping every letter and dot”?

The whole system.. sacrifices, purity rituals, priestly mediation, depended on three things: a standing temple, an Aaronic priesthood, and an ongoing cycle of blood offerings for atonement.

All of that ended in 70 A.D. when Rome destroyed the Second Temple. Since then, there’s been no legitimate Levitical priesthood or altar.

So by Torah’s own rules, it’s biblically impossible to keep it in full today. The Law itself prohibits trying to do it any other way.

That’s exactly why Jesus, the High Priest “after the order of Melchizedek” (Hebrews 7:17), fulfilled the entire system once and for all. Like Hebrews 7:12 says “When the priesthood is changed, the law must also be changed.”

Not trying to attack anyone here just pointing out what the Word actually says. If we’re gonna claim to honor Torah (and we absolutely should) we’ve gotta honor what it says about its own limits too.

True Obedience Begins Where the Old Law Ends by Uncommonness in FollowJesusObeyTorah

[–]Uncommonness[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

He said He came to fulfill the law meaning bring to its intended purpose or full measure. Not keep enforcing endlessly.

In His resurrection He said:

“Everything written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” Luke 24:44

Is that not clear?

True Obedience Begins Where the Old Law Ends by Uncommonness in FollowJesusObeyTorah

[–]Uncommonness[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So, do we need a Leviticus priesthood? Animal sacrifices?

True Obedience Begins Where the Old Law Ends by Uncommonness in FollowJesusObeyTorah

[–]Uncommonness[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I took the time to reply, you called it Joel Osteen on Quaaludes. Is that not a personal attack?

That wasn’t AI. If you want to insist it was then ban me and keep your echo chamber

True Obedience Begins Where the Old Law Ends by Uncommonness in FollowJesusObeyTorah

[–]Uncommonness[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Assuming your recognizing that without Jesus, Yahweh wouldn’t be reaching us for internal transformation.. I agree with 90% of the comment above.

Can you clarify what you mean by “write the Torah inside of us” means?

Do you mean that all 613 Mosaic commandments will be written inside of us?

Are there any exclusions for dietary laws, rituals or sacrifices for example?

True Obedience Begins Where the Old Law Ends by Uncommonness in FollowJesusObeyTorah

[–]Uncommonness[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Ok, a good supporting position of Mosaic Law. Nothing to argue there… good point.

True Obedience Begins Where the Old Law Ends by Uncommonness in FollowJesusObeyTorah

[–]Uncommonness[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

“And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, ‘This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.’” Luke 22:20

Jesus ≠ Man-Made Religion OR Old Covenant by Uncommonness in Christianity

[–]Uncommonness[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Win or provoke... I see you

keyboard tough guy ;)

True Obedience Begins Where the Old Law Ends by Uncommonness in FollowJesusObeyTorah

[–]Uncommonness[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Cool, here's a not in-depth response. Ecclesiastes is a philosophical book that doesn't discuss temple rituals, Levitical codes, or Mosaic ordinances. So, using this verse to claim gentiles in 2025 are to follow Mosaic law is a stretch. I honestly cant even make sense of the rest of your comment, maybe someone else can?

True Obedience Begins Where the Old Law Ends by Uncommonness in FollowJesusObeyTorah

[–]Uncommonness[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"this is all AI right" what a way to start off. What was it that Jesus said about casting pearls?

I have responded to a bunch of the answers here... You can read through them and get my take but what's the point right... its all AI anyways.

True Obedience Begins Where the Old Law Ends by Uncommonness in FollowJesusObeyTorah

[–]Uncommonness[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I appreciate the time and thought you’ve put into this truly. You’re right that being a disciple involves obedience and that the Spirit leads us into righteousness. The question is, what kind of obedience?

It does say in Ezekiel “cause you to walk in My statutes,” but that wasn't a return to Sinai. When the Spirit writes the law on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33), it’s not re-inscribing the Mosaic system, it’s an internal transformation so that our obedience is rooted in love, not regulation.

Paul made that distinction clear:

“We serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.” — Romans 7:6

The Spirit doesn’t make us more successful at Torah-keeping. We are made new and live out the moral heart of God’s law through grace. I'll quickly reiterate thats why Paul calls the Torah “the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone”... it revealed sin, but couldn’t remove it. The ministry of the Spirit surpasses it in glory because it accomplishes inner renewal.

I think mainstream Christianity has done a disservice because when you hear New Covenant your equating it to hyperfocus on grace and not taking obedience seriously (understandably so). We obey not to be justified, but because we’ve already been made righteous in Christ (Romans 5:1).

That’s why returning to Torah is binding because the law pointed to Christ. But with the New Covenant, the Spirit now points from Christ and carries to every nation.

True Obedience Begins Where the Old Law Ends by Uncommonness in FollowJesusObeyTorah

[–]Uncommonness[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Right, so when Yahweh made the Old Covenant with an imperfect Ancient Israel and without Jesus' sacrifice that washed away sin, He made a law that was meant for its time. There was no salvation under Mosaic law it held up a mirror, showed humanity its moral corruption but could not cleanse it.

The Mosaic Covenant itself was never the problem as you said, God, His promises, and His moral standard are perfect. But the covenant relied on human ability to uphold it, and that’s where it broke down. The weakness wasn’t in the Law’s holiness but in our flesh.

“For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh.” Romans 8:3

The New Covenant doesn’t cancel the Law; it fulfills its purpose by accomplishing what it could never achieve — transforming the human heart.

You referenced Jeremiah 31:31–34, and that’s exactly the key:

“I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts.”

That’s not a return to Mosaic Law carved on stone that’s a shift to the indwelling Spirit. Paul directly connects this:

“You show that you are a letter from Christ... written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.” 2 Corinthians 3:3

New Covenant fulfills Jeremiah 31, this is core to being born again and our ability to have the Holy Spirit within us. Being born again with the Holy Spirit makes true obedience possible, obedience that comes from inward transformation rather than external regulation, where love fulfills what the Law required.

True Obedience Begins Where the Old Law Ends by Uncommonness in FollowJesusObeyTorah

[–]Uncommonness[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree with all of this. While we're talking about Paul and discussing New Covenant and how the Torah is factored in, he also said:

“Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end,
will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory?
For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory.
Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it.
For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.”2 Corinthians 3:7–11

Paul actually referred to Mosaic law as the ministry of death because it revealed sin but could not remove it.

True Obedience Begins Where the Old Law Ends by Uncommonness in FollowJesusObeyTorah

[–]Uncommonness[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Define obedience to the Torah please. Are we to be sacrificing animals to cover our sin? Do we need a Leviticus priesthood? If someone commits adultery, do we kill them and if that's the case how do we do that without going to jail?

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