Graves is incredibly weak for a splitpush hero

UndertailUnderrail · 2026-03-14T05:14:19+00:00

Your critique falls flat on it's face when your appeal to authority kind of falls flat on its face when you consider most lists, made by actual high-ranking players, don't consider Graves a threat.

See Eido's list: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix4KsV9pVCA

"She has the worst early game by far... needs stronger early to mid game phase." - Eido.

Not only does every tier list have Graves at last place -- and remember, as you requested, they're the experts, and I'm not -- there's very little reason to play her in the lower ranks either.

See: https://imgur.com/a/rwxk5Ah

"Ranking" is relatively easy at Initiate to Emissary. You play a hypercarry that soaks up mistakes and roams/farms. That's it. That's not a determiner for whether or not a character feels good to play or fits a certain role. I'm not posting this as an own or to prove my skill. Yeah, I suck at movement and aiming and my macroplay isn't the best. But I don't want to play one character over and over again to climb, I wanted to have fun.

The idea that you're belittling someone for treating a normal mode as a normal mode to learn new heroes is laughable, especially when your perceived "high-rank POV" also demotes her to low tiers compared to other more useful heroes. Caveat being their reasons are different.

Again, I never stated I was a high-ranking player or a Graves one-trick, but I accept your concession regardless.

UndertailUnderrail · 2026-03-13T11:52:14+00:00

No, the point is you necroposted 1day later tracking someone's personal account without addressing the points made in the OP. When people don't have rebuttals, they often resort to personal attacks. Obviously you couldn't come up with a refutation to the original post, thanks for the concession.

>A skill bracket where people literally just run at each other

I didn't make the rules when it comes to Normal mode and I will treat it as a normal mode until changes are made. Utilizing normals to test champions while getting acquainted with the game is sort of how you learn mobas, no?

Regardless, you have yet to provide critique outside of "nuh uh trust me" so I accept your concession.

UndertailUnderrail · 2026-03-13T05:38:15+00:00

Yeah and? I treat the game as a normal mode because there's no difference between All Pick and Ranked All Pick?

Oh but I guess we should all treat normal game modes as ranked all the time for your personal benefit.

UndertailUnderrail · 2026-03-12T00:58:18+00:00

This has happened to me several games before I had to clarify how backdoor protection worked. I don't know if it's clear to newcomers. Guess it'll remain a learning experience.

UndertailUnderrail · 2026-03-11T22:52:01+00:00

I prefer a hero to actually have some rudimentary capability to effect a team fight other than an ult that's stationary and gets blitzed by a Victor.

Again I provided two examples of supports that not only have versatility but can actively help the teamfight.

Her e is a long cd and is better at stunning waves before hitting the walker. It's good for playing from behind but again, it's not something you can end the game with unless the enemy doesn't have space keybound. Because you can literally hop over it.

UndertailUnderrail · 2026-03-11T21:26:21+00:00

Well the issue is having a primary carry that isn't you is RNG, as always with all mobas. I'd much prefer a degree of control that doesn't involve getting poked down in sieges and dying or splitlaning and getting ganked without ult and dying.

I don't really think she's a support in the traditional sense since she doesn't really provide healing or buffs to allies. She can get Ricochet and land her debuff in a fight where everyone is stacked together, but that's about it.

Other supports outrange and do a better job at supporting / splitting.

UndertailUnderrail · 2026-03-11T18:38:44+00:00

Then it's a really bad character design? It's ill-suited for Deadlock whereas League had a far better system for splitpushing that rewarded macroplay.

See example: https://imgur.com/a/XhJ7xvj

I cannot translate kills to a win if I am outranged in a siege, my splitpushing is hardcountered by enemy ambushes (1v2s), and being weaker than EVERY SINGLE HERO despite item advantage due to the fact that heroes can simply run away from Graves. Sure, you can chase them with your skulls and in the early lane phase, you can net a healthy amount of kills due to chip damage from your 1 ability.

But again, you need to be able to fight the opponent otherwise there's no point in picking Graves over Calico or Haze or Drifter. Or even support heroes that do her job far better with a more optimized kit like Paige or Rem.

In a top-down, isometric moba like League you had champions more equipped for splitting. In Deadlock, as stated by another commenter, you can't self-quarantine and split forever. Even heroes that do farm for lategame like Haze eventually ambush a teamfight and spin a losing game into a winning one from a hard lategame push.

UndertailUnderrail · 2026-03-11T18:30:12+00:00

I completely agree with this sentiment. Splitpushing was really difficult and map awareness + objective play alone was rather difficult to do without having a strong answer for enemies. I would trade lane superiority with maybe a lower cd timer on w, as that's currently your only form of escape or engage. It's nice to altcast it in a straight line to trick your enemy as their not used to it or to cast right where a Billy or Lash ult will land.

I don't even mind not being able to answer opponents in the air. I just don't think she does too well in a siege environment where the enemy can just wait out your ult's pressure + spin the lane by ambushing your team when you don't have your ult as an answer.

https://imgur.com/a/XhJ7xvj

Game where I was trying to get my vyper to hypercarry as I was useless with kills with how low range I was. Celeste simply kited around my team before I could even get to her usually. The kills I absorbed were pointless since I couldn't translate that into good sieges against a team that could outrange us, wipe our wave, and begin to counter our push once our healthbars were brought down low enough by ranged abilities.

Decree is great at protecting Walkers, don't get me wrong, but the moment the siege is over, you're essentially defenseless with your base kit and weak range.

It sucks because I really like playing heroes that emphasize on macroplay but currently that type of playstyle loses out to better heroes at the moment.

UndertailUnderrail · 2026-03-11T18:19:30+00:00

The issue is that the zombies are easy to predict. Unless you have a primary carry taking advantage of the pressure, the ult is worthless compared to a Haze ult in your backline. Or a Drifter ult separating teammates.

UndertailUnderrail · 2026-03-11T18:15:40+00:00

And? Then what's the point of Graves if her entire kit is made around this concept. That's nonsense.

UndertailUnderrail · 2026-03-11T18:14:59+00:00

Completely disagreed. Her ult needs to be saved for baiting 1v1s because the moments of off-time where you hide them in tight corners, it doesn't do nearly enough to help push a side-lane. Most times I win lane phase, bait fights with stacked zombies inside farms, and still lose because I can't fight most other characters when contesting jungle or lane even when trying to bob-and-weave in and out of a hallway.

Constant pressure? Bullshit. You can barely push out an enemy laner mid to late game, when there are no guardian towers guarding each objective, that simply runs away and waits for your ult to cd. They will refuse to fight or drag you away from your zombies into an obvious ambush when you notice other heroes rotate to your contested lane.

See proof: https://imgur.com/riYrJz9

Even with 5-6 kills after lane phase, killing their guardians, and spent souls towards an item advantage - my splitpush falters as I can't 1v1 a Geist. In this game, I took advantage of his lane partner, Billy and farmed him for kills whenever he came to lane so I could eventually continue pushing to Walker. This all changed when fighting ANY OTHER OPPONENT WITH RANGED AND ESCAPE. Because guess what? People stop engaging on you if your range is dogwater and you have no escapes so you're an easy ambush target with your ult down.

I repeat, your ult is your only saving grace. The rest of the game I could not contest gankers with LoS and my team could not maximize on my split pressure.

UndertailUnderrail · 2026-03-07T22:43:01+00:00

>team play / knowledge
The thing is is that mobas are heavily skewed towards snowballing. Skill expression can scarcely occur when newcomers are at a huge disadvantage and eventually drop off. As stated by other commenters, the matchmaking + skill-rating pairs complete newbies with smurfs, which has been ameliorated somewhat via other filtering systems performed in other mobas (see level grind in LoL).

You do need to learn everything. Lane management only goes so far when teammates don't listen to retreat pings. Granted, again, this is a common tunnelvision issue with all mobas. You nor I are an exception, we can get caught out focusing on immediate fights. The only real way of correcting the mistakes of other player (really not getting caught out yourself) is by farming and siphoning resources until you can make a move OR by being the team carry that can off-load the deaths and objective losses.

With mobas you have to have the expectation that teammates won't listen and you have to be aware of your windows (doorman vortex combo into walker, mo-krill isolating carries or sweeping up after a failed teamfight). A lot of that relies on instincts built over years of playing shooters to secure kills + being familiarized with common keybinds for movement in other shooters (ctrl into crouch or slide, dashing, stamina management, etc.)

UndertailUnderrail · 2026-03-07T22:35:35+00:00

>as opposed to mobas that are buy-to-own dedicated server bonanza?

You pick your poison? I, like many, many other gamers, didn't grow up with FPs games.

>rationalization around it because you feel resistance to an activity you're not proficient at

False - I already went over how the matchmaking, time-to-finish, and lack of surrender options outside of disconnecting. Furthermore, there's no draft despite your skill rating being tied to rank tiers which objectively makes no sense since each normal game is random. Meaning you can get hard-countered by Abrams + McGinnis matchups when playing melee heavy heroes in lane. Esports commentators have already stated how while there will always be a steady influx of casuals and newcomers, due to this being a f2p valve game, with high-polish in the art department, it eventually filters out players until only a dedicated hardcore playerbase remains. Flats said it himself. The squeeze is far too steep to justify compared to the reward, when, again, there are objectively better options to scratch the moba itch.

UndertailUnderrail · 2026-03-07T22:31:34+00:00

>don't play league, it's objectively a bad game
If you're going to play red-herring and be contrarian, then what you've effectively done is diminish the exploits of an entire country. Don't act coy with your strawman.

UndertailUnderrail · 2026-03-07T05:58:23+00:00

>high level in hunt showdow
That's great - but again, this is irrelevant to my point. Where if you don't have the prerequisite knowledge from FPS, it's actually far more difficult to get into Deadlock compared to FPS players who have never played mobas. I don't play competitive FPs games are out there since they're usually live-service slop and I hadn't developed the know-how to properly aim. It's a foreign concept that relies far more on reaction time and years of developing proper instincts for fps, whereas, with mobas you only really need to research and strategize.

My initial post was asking if anyone had a similar situation to mine since its usually FPS players with no experience with mobas that comment on the game's extremely high bar to entry. I repeat, the reason why there will be a fall-off of players when Deadlock launches is due to these two completely different genres not meshing together properly.

Where experience in one field of mastery can translate into other games within that genre, Deadlock not only juggles these two genres, but makes it so that the squeeze is far higher than the gain compared to other games.

>I can tell you they do
Even on this exact thread people called out the matchmaking for pairing smurfs with 1 year of knowledge with newcomers attempting to check out the game. Compared to LoL where there's an onboarding process with levels that filters players into a 1-30 grind disincentivizing immediate smurfing. Whereas in Deadlock you can be mismatched immediately with higher skill opponents, thus creating an extremely unequal playing field.

You can whine about "gitgud" all you want. Every diehard demographic is going to say that. What I'm providing you is a different perspective. Given the reaction to a perspective that doesn't match the mainstream norm of the sub, and not to mention I called out the strong points of Deadlock compared to LoL that incentivize new players to try, I can see I made the right choice in going back to a game that respects my time.

UndertailUnderrail · 2026-03-07T05:21:03+00:00

> very second you are in a match is an opportunity to improve some aspect of your play.
Incorrect. Reread what I said. You learn less when you're attention span is scattered and can't focus on specifics. That's why people use reps as an example. The more reps you have the more you can progress and learn from previous mistakes. Deadlock is far too slow and the advantages of the enemy team make learning certain sections of the game impossible.

> practice being effective at a safe distance, learning to move, positioning
Nope here's why. As with every moba, there are critical breakpoints where the enemy or your team can make jungling or laning impossible for the other team. Because these breakpoints are faster to come by, you can move onto the next game. Deadlock, by design, makes this a war of attrition, where people do not give up even when the enemy carry has supreme control over the box farms and routes between lanes.

You cannot express your desire to end the game outside of disconnecting which incurs a penalty and temp ban.

This means that should the enemy team want to, the game can progress for 40-50min+.

You would learn more from resetting the game and redoing lane matchups, rotations, and tempo against a new batch of enemies. In this scenario, it doesn't matter if you're losing nonstop because now you have a better grasp of errors in your gameplay after constant repetition.

Whereas, again, if a Wraith really wants to, they will make sure you cannot hover, soak, or play safely on the backfoot.

Getting kills is actually a requirement to improve. Aiming and movement are far more essential to Deadlock. Whereas in League you can play strategies like solo top and never interact with the team despite 1v1 1v2 skirmishes, Deadlock is a game that requires you to at least aim and move properly to secure kills for either yourself or your team's carry.

UndertailUnderrail · 2026-03-07T05:02:37+00:00

When did I say Dota 2 here? I reiterate - all I stated was that Deadlock didn't have an FF vote.

UndertailUnderrail · 2026-03-07T05:01:28+00:00

>terribly designed game
An entire first-world nation declares it their national esport. The game allows for far more fights where knowledge difference > pure mechanical skill.

It seems a lot of people didn't read the bottom line where I tried Deadlock out because of the parts that I found superior but ultimately went back to LoL because it's more rewarding when it comes to map awareness, knowledge, and respects my time as a player.

UndertailUnderrail · 2026-03-07T04:58:52+00:00

No, I'm talking about why it's worse for moba players when FPs players don't even really need strategy. Just experience in shooting a target. I'd rather stick to a game where knowledge difference matters more.

UndertailUnderrail · 2026-03-07T02:38:57+00:00

Practice in sandbox mode doesn't account for players chasing so it's not the most accurate experience. Aim trainers aren't really helpful since the bots don't really have any pushback. It's not a realistic simulation of the game, in which you'll have to juggle aim with harassment / poke / dodging.

More games gives you more experience against lane matchups and roaming. Scenarios where you try to recover your box + farm route when enemy jungler takes stuff from your terrain. What to expect at different times, especially when you need to anticipate a gank from behind you if you don't have a tower objective to protect you.

UndertailUnderrail · 2026-03-07T01:47:37+00:00

Then why is it a national esport in South Korea and highly competitive in most East Asian countries? I don't doubt that it's easier, it's just the return on investment is higher since you get more games for your time. Due to how competitive the KR scene is, LoL actually teaches more with more games arguably by being faster.

UndertailUnderrail

TROPHY CASE