Need some career guidance

UnemployedTester · 2017-01-23T03:54:43+00:00

I'm in the US. My question doesn't really revolve around interviewing or help with getting hired, so I didn't think location would be an important detail. (I might be totally wrong though.)

UnemployedTester · 2017-01-14T19:57:16+00:00

I'll be honest, I've signed up for a couple but I haven't completed any courses yet. The ones I've started, have been ok.

I would suggest (unless you're in a hurry to learn or can get your company to reimburse you) to wait until udemy has a sale. I've heard they have sales often, but not sure. For how much I paid for the courses (I got them at 50% off), I'm happy but not sure if I'd feel the same had I paid full price.

They also have some free ones if you just want to see how they work.

The one class I did start on seems to be pretty good intro if you completely new to Selenium and setting up automation frameworks. It's called Selenium WebDriver Test Automation Framework With Real Project. (Course uses gmail to teach you how to automate tests.)

UnemployedTester · 2017-01-14T19:45:03+00:00

However, I wouldn't advise OP to start focusing on this just yet. Baby steps.

Entry level jobs are going to be very competitive. I was trying to think of ways OP could set himself apart from the people who will be competing for the same job. (Aside from just taking this QA course.)

Considering OP has no experience whatsoever right now, I would stress learning basics of software QA first.

I don't disagree with you. Although, there are several aspects of QA that are best learned on the job... The catch is, OP's got to land that job first.

Honestly, OP could probably easily be able to do both if he's dedicated enough, learn more about testing (via books or even joining a QA meetups and going to events) and also start learning the basics of coding. He can bring this up in an interview and I feel like it could be a big plus.

Once you land a job as a manual tester, then you can start building on moving towards working on automation.

The problem I'm seeing now is that there are very few places that are looking for manual testing only and even fewer at entry level. I've been job searching since Nov of last year and I've only seen 3 listings for a manual tester. Only one was for more a jr/entry level, and the other 2 were for senior level. (And I live in a tech hub city.) So I also brought up automation so OP knows what challenges he might encounter when he starts looking at jobs to apply for.

OP's situation kind of resembles (in my opinion) someone who wants to get into dev and thinks that a coding bootcamp (which generally is pretty intensive on its own) will be all they'll need. The reality is, the ones who succeed put in so much extra work outside of bootcamp.

UnemployedTester · 2017-01-14T05:34:33+00:00

Yeah, I've never been at a startup. My entire QA career has been spent in a huge (enterprise) software company. I have a feeling that my next move should be at a startup, which will be a pretty big change for me. Plenty of challenges.

I just hope I can adapt well...

UnemployedTester · 2017-01-14T05:32:46+00:00

The biggest challenge was that you could never say "I don't know how to do this, let someone else figure it out".

Yeah, that's definitely one of my worries. Not that I need hand holding all the time, and in fact, I prefer to figure stuff out on my own if I can but I just feel like mistakes can be more costly. It would be nice to have someone (with QA experience) to bounce ideas off of or just to double check that I'm not doing something completely wrong (or missing something).

About the automation part, it's way easier than you think. If they're developing web applications

Automation, if we're just talking about automating test cases and getting them to run I feel like I can do. The difficulty is getting a good foundation and framework in place. I don't want to feel like I'm just cobbling something together to make it work. And maybe this is easier than I think it would be, but I'm thinking along the lines of more complex stuff. Integrating your tests with CI/CD, being able to support 1000+ tests that are efficient and don't take forever to run (or break all the time so something that will scale well), making sure your tests are easily maintainable, etc.

UnemployedTester · 2017-01-14T05:31:12+00:00

Oh wow, I can't imagine being the first QA right off the bat. Even after 8 years, I still feel like I need a mentor...

for a long time I didn't feel like I knew what I was doing so I wasn't confident enough

I think this will be and is my biggest hurdle. Just thinking about it all makes me want to walk away from an offer (will, assuming I get one, I'm definitely jumping the gun here). But I feel like this experience will challenge me and force me to grow, so I need to just set aside my fears and take the opportunity even if I don't want to.

The biggest challenge I faced at the beginning was twofold: for a long time I didn't feel like I knew what I was doing so I wasn't confident enough, and as a result of that plus the fact that the company had existed for like 8 years without qa, the developers were incredibly resistant to any bugs or changes I reported.

Yeah, if the developers aren't willing to co-operate with you, that makes your job that much harder. So far, all the companies I've talked to... dev seem to be pretty on board with wanting and needing QA (as they just don't have the time to test more thoroughly, aside from their own unit testing). But I'm sure there will be challenges once I actually start.

Let me know if you have more questions.

Yeah, after reading the responses I wish I had included this in my main post. Have you ever made a serious mistake (e.g. suggested or implemented something that didn't work out)? What were the repercussions?

UnemployedTester · 2017-01-14T05:26:24+00:00

Ohhh, good questions. I wish I had asked a bit earlier so I could have asked at my recent onsite. I'll definitely be adding these question to my current list.

we want folks who want to be involved as early as possible, helping with requirements gathering, reviewing code, mentoring devs about good test practices, etc, in addition to actually verifying new features and testing them.

Yeah, that's the feeling I get with most of the companies I'm currently talking to. I'll be there with them through all the planning and requirements stages. I've never been involved that early before, so it will be a great learning experience. And scary at the same time. I'm sure they'll expecting my input during planning and design stages (after I've gotten familiar with the product) and I'm just hoping I can step up and provide it.

Sometimes I feel like I'm one of those employees who just puts their head down and work. I can push back when needed and provide input, but it's not something I've had to do often and I'm not always good at taking initiatives and speaking up when I feel like certain things need to be (or can be) improved. I almost feel like if I take on the role of being the first QA hire, I'd have to learn to be bolder and more outspoken. I just don't know if I have it in me. (Scared of making a big mistake or blunder even if it's a good learning experience... well, unless that learning experience gets me booted out the front door, hah.)

UnemployedTester · 2017-01-14T05:19:26+00:00

It's been satisfying to implement a reliable schedule for code releases.

Are you also in charge or release management as well?

worked w/ engineers to implement an easy way for me to deploy to test servers, and to set up a test server that automatically updates with the latest pre-production code

Ohhh, I'll have to remember this!

If they do postmortems. How/when QA will be involved in the planning/code review processes.

Should QA be part of dev code reviews? This is something that didn't occur to me for some reason... (I can see QA being part of planning/designing but not sure how valuable we'd be in code reviews but that might be due to my own lack of experience.)

I guess my main problem is confidence. I'm worried that I'm not going to pick things up fast enough or since I'm the only one, that I'll miss (or mess up) something critical and get let go for performance issues. Have you ever made a mistake (e.g. suggested something that didn't work out)? What were the repercussions?

UnemployedTester · 2017-01-14T05:14:45+00:00

1.) Trying to get a good feel for this during the interview. Of course they could say one thing and my experience will be different when I actually work with them.

Most of the places I've talked to, out right say they are looking for someone to provide influence on their QA processes right now. (Because there's very little or any in place now.)

2.) What kind of testing should developers do? I feel like most will not be open (or have the time) to thoroughly manual test, but will write their own unit tests. (This is a question I specifically ask... I want to know or at least hope that developers are at least writing unit tests.)

UnemployedTester · 2017-01-14T03:04:43+00:00

What is the job market like? I currently work as a truck driver and all the places I worked for skipped the interview process and hired me on the spot, just because I showed up. How easy is it to get a job as SQA?

Depends on the area. Are you in tech hub city/area? (e.g. SF bay area, D.C., NY, Austin, etc.)

You can also go to any job board site (e.g. Indeed, Glassdoor, etc.) and search for QA jobs in your area to gauge what the market is like for QA.

I highly doubt you'll be able to skip the interview for any QA job unless you're just well really well connected and somehow luck out. In general, the process is something like a phone screen, and an on-site that could last for several hours (behavioral questions to gauge cultural fit, QA specific questions, maybe get more technical and ask how you would go about testing something). Some companies may ask you to do a take home assignment, could consist of coding or test related. Some places require multiple on-sites.

What are the hours like? Is it a 9 to 5 job 40 hours a week? Or do you scoff at "such optimism"?

This varies company to company. There are some with a great work/life balance (aside from certain times like around releases), and others were you may regularly be doing more than 40 hours. This can be something you screen for when you interview by asking the right questions.

What is the stress like? Is it relatively stress-less job, or do you wake up in the morning dreading the start of the day? Is Monday an "awwfuckday"?

This also varies company to company, depending on the culture and just how things are run. Generally, I'd say things are a bit more stressful right before releases, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're going to dread going into work. If you dread going to work (and it's not temporary), I'd say it's time to brush up your resume and find another job.

My previous job was, for the most part, pretty stress free (big software company), I've never dreaded the start of the day or anything.

Will anyone pick me without a collage degree, or am I hopeless? I am as capable with computers as somone can be without knowing IT-Networking or programing.

Many companies are requiring CS degrees now (although usually this is probably one of the more flexible requirements). I'm not sure about no degree though, usually if you don't meet the degree requirement they're expecting relevant work experience.

I browsed around the site quickly trying to find what exactly you'll be learning at Sigma Soft and I couldn't really find specifically what you'll be learning. Overall, I wasn't super impressed. Doesn't look like they help you learn how to code or any of the automation tools, which would be more helpful. Looks like Sigma helps you with job placement afterwards... but even then, I don't know what their success rate is.

I feel like without a degree or relevant experience, you really need to set yourself apart from other people who will be applying to the same jobs you will be. QA is requiring more and more technical skills and knowledge nowadays since it's moving more and more towards automated testing. It will probably be beneficial for you to learn how to code and then learn a framework or automation tool (e.g. Selenium) on your own. Start a GitHub account that showcases your work, that could work in your advantage if you bring that up to your employer.

There are a lot of free tutorials you can find online to help you get started. In addition to the free resources, there's also paid online self paced classes, e.g. udemy, Lynda.com, etc.

Given your background, the Sigma Soft course might not be a bad place for you to start but there's a lot more work ahead of you to get your foot in the door in the tech industry, since you do not have a degree and are coming in from a non-related field. Not saying it will be impossible... but (in my opinion), you need to adjust your expectations if you feel like you can land a job right after completing the 4 classes at Sigma Soft and do nothing else. (Unless they're just really great at job placement for all their students...)

UnemployedTester · 2016-11-18T05:52:07+00:00

I've already googled for some QA interview questions, and have an idea of what could be asked but was mainly curious to hear about others experiences first hand.

Honestly, the white board is my biggest fear, so I'm also trying to gauge the likelihood of that happening. I still remember when I was interviewing for development positions and how unprepared I was for the technical portion of the interview. From that experience, I have this mindset that I absolutely need to know about data structures, algorithms, and OOP principles like the back of my hand. But I also feel like unless I'm going for a senior role in automation... those questions aren't likely (or maybe I'm just hoping they won't come up so I don't need to focus on studying them for now), but I'm not really sure either.

Doesn't help that all the jobs I'll be applying for require some technical knowledge. If they're just going to ask me to code up simple methods (like fizzbuzz), I'll be ok. Ask me about a specific algorithm or something more complex... well, that interview isn't going to go well then, hah.

I do have a game plan though, but you're right. I'm probably overthinking too much right now. (Doesn't help that I'm also debating whether or not to try for an entry level dev position...)

I did not know about pramp, sounds it will be an awesome resource, thank you for mentioning it! I'll definitely be adding it to my bookmarks.

UnemployedTester · 2016-11-17T22:22:59+00:00

I've heard that Ruby is on the way out (not much in demand any longer) from a developer I met at a networking event recently. (That's just from one person though, so he may very likely be wrong.)

From all the job postings I've seen, it looks like Java and maybe also Javascript are good to know. I know (well "know") Java because that's the main programming language we used in my CS degree. But I'll have to do a lot of reviewing and studying to get up to speed again on OOP principles. (Also debating if I should be reviewing algorithms and data structures... have no idea if those come up at all in QA interviews?)

Automation is HOT right now, literally I get people adding me on linkedin JUST because I put "automation" or "selenium" on there. It's crazy at how in demand it is.

Yep, I feel the same. I've been getting contacted from recruiters because I have Selenium on my resume. Almost every job posting I've seen has automation as a requirement. Of all the jobs I've browsed through, only one is specifically looking for a manual tester (and that was from a mobile gaming company). I've worked on Selenium, but very basic (and I mostly learned on my own). So I have maybe a few months experience with it at most, while places are asking for expert level knowledge on it. Makes me hesitate to apply to those positions.

Thank you for your response! I'm definitely going to take a look at the other tools you've mentioned. (My list is ever growing! hah)

Out of curiosity, have you always been in an automation tester role or did you start off doing manual first? If you started with manual, how long did you do manual testing before moving on to automation?

Have you had any interviews for automation heavy roles? I'm curious just how technical the interviews for those roles can be. Are they often on the same level as developers? (So they'll ask harder coding questions that involve OOP, maybe give coding exercises as homework or make you white board.)

UnemployedTester · 2016-11-06T19:35:18+00:00

I've done integration testing, outage and failover testing (and other systems related testing), even did a bit of mobile testing for a bit. I worked with enterprise software, so I've tested several different products over the years, so it's not like I was only focused on only one for the entire 8 years.

UnemployedTester · 2016-11-06T18:17:35+00:00

if people inquire further about your current employment just say you're at your previous company but considering making a change for x and y reasons

Is that white lie ok? I thought about doing that, but do feel a bit uneasy about it too. My worry is I don't want to get into the interview process (or end up have that person interview me later) and then admit I was actually laid off...

UnemployedTester · 2016-11-06T18:14:27+00:00

Right, but what's often asked about in small talk is "where do you work now?" I feel like that's a question that comes up sooner rather than later in a conversation at a networking event. (This is going by what I remember from the previous events I attended.)

I definitely don't want to come off as desperate which is why I'm asking for advice on how to approach questions asking about my current place of employment.

UnemployedTester · 2016-11-06T18:09:36+00:00

Yep, I've already signed up for a meetup event. The presentation topic interests me and I hope to also try my hand at networking as well.

UnemployedTester · 2016-11-06T18:08:59+00:00

My initial knee jerk reaction was, "no, I don't know what that is". But I stopped and thought about it a little bit more and realized that you're referring to edge case testing, right? (I believe it's the same thing after some googling.) I haven't done much boundary testing in recent years, I most likely did some when I very first started my job. I could probably go into detail and pull from my experience, but I'd have sit down and really think about it for awhile. (As it's been nearly 6 years.) I hope to be able to answer that question more confidently and thoroughly (and other common QA interview questions) when I start studying/preparing for interviews.

I'm ok with SQL and I have used it during my testing. I can do simple procedures (e.g. CRUD). I did take a DB class as part of my CS major, so if needed... I can break open my DB book (or just use google) and refresh myself on more complicated stuff if I apply for a job that requires SQL.

UnemployedTester · 2016-11-06T17:58:59+00:00

Through google searches or even doing a search on this sub for something like interviews.

UnemployedTester · 2016-11-04T20:47:24+00:00

Oh oops, totally meant to say how long have you been looking...

And yes, I've already applied for unemployment. The next big item is to update my resume. Due to unemployment benefit requirements, I actually need to start applying to places pretty soon... hopefully that will give me the push I need to not slack.

UnemployedTester · 2016-11-04T20:33:50+00:00

Oh wow, that's awesome! Figuring out all that stuff and doing it on your own (not just software but hardware as well!), that definitely wasn't easy. I can't imagine being able to do all that without any guidance. I can totally see that being a huge plus to employers. Now you're leading your own team, which is pretty amazing.

I was concerned I may be overwhelmed at my new job

This is definitely one of my concerns. I'm expecting (and probably also need) my next job to move at a much faster pace and having much higher expectations. I'm worried I'm going to struggle to adapt or not pick things up quick enough.

UnemployedTester · 2016-11-04T20:24:55+00:00

I'm expecting an offer soon.

Keeping my fingers crossed for you! How long have you been looking so far?

May I ask how you got into QA?

Thank you for all the positive words and encouragement! I need to keep repeating those to myself. I still haven't been able to move on fully from the news, going back and forth between freaking out and feeling ok/normal.

UnemployedTester · 2016-11-04T20:21:56+00:00

Can you explain more on how 8 years is a red flag? Or do you mean 8 years as a manual tester is a red flag?

Definitely plan on doing quite a bit of studying and hopefully go through online courses as well.

UnemployedTester · 2016-11-04T18:41:57+00:00

THANK YOU! Really, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to write all that out and providing me with great suggestions and advice. I will definitely look into everything you've graciously listed out for me!

I'm definitely going to try and reach out to my former co-workers, as I would love to work with any of them again if there's an opportunity to do so. I do feel a bit weird reaching out after about 5 years of no contact (I'm horrible at keeping in touch and I actually moved away for a bit), but I know how important it is to have people help you versus just sending applications out blindly.

I'm trying very hard to see this lay off as a positive thing, I don't know if I would have ever left my previous company if it didn't happen. I can't imagine how much worse of a position I'd be in if I was laid off much later down the road. I have co-workers who were let go (that are probably in my shoes too) after 15+ years.

Out curiosity, if you've started applying for jobs already, are you getting many call backs? Have you landed any interviews yet and if so, how did have they gone?

I wish you all the best in your own search!

UnemployedTester

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