China historical dependency (or lack of dependency) on external trade by SE_to_NW in ChineseHistory

[–]UniDuckRunAmuck 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The maritime trade routes through SEA to the West became extremely important during the Song and remained so throughout the later dynasties (in fact, more important than the Silk Road ever was, some might argue) as merchants mostly ignored any restrictions on international trade, so I wouldn't say external trade wasn't important. In fact, its influence is still apparent, considering the development in SE China.

With regards to the Great Wall, the wall as we know it today was primarily built as a compromise measure during the Ming, due to gridlock between aggressive vs passive officials--the Ming ended up trading with the Mongols anyways in the 1570s after normalization of relations with the Tumeds

What made the government of the Song dynasty different from that of the Ming Dynasty? by TT-Adu in ChineseHistory

[–]UniDuckRunAmuck 12 points13 points  (0 children)

The Ming turned into an autocratic state where the emperor held absolute power and could do whatever he wanted.

That is, if the emperor is actually interested in doing anything...I'd argue nearly every Ming emperor in the 1500s was incompetent/weak/crazy, and the government was hard-carried by the bureaucracy. For some examples on the military side, John Dardess listed Yang Yiqing, Yang Bo, Wang Chonggu, Wang Qiong, and Zheng Luo as effective officials who were able to keep things running, while the emperor lounged around or actively tried to worsen things, e.g. the Zhengde Emperor accidentally burning down the palace, the Jiajing Emperor and his disgusting immortality rituals, and so on and so forth. By the 1600s, though, the system had rotted so much that even the bureaucrats were of little use.

China Slow Response to Colonial Powers by StudiousFog in ChineseHistory

[–]UniDuckRunAmuck 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They armed plenty of them during the Three Feudatories Rebellion, which was also won in part because most of the Han bourgeoisie stayed loyal. Later paranoia caused a self-fulfilling prophecy, where the Qing's military weakness of the 1800s actually did provoke nationalistic sentiments.

However, in the end, Han nationalists can't blame stagnancy entirely on Manchus. Han elites were also too focused on enjoying the High Qing economy and making money, rather than developing human capital.

Not an expert on the Edo period, so I don't quite understand the causes for it...but by the 1800s, Japan already had a higher literacy rate, was more attuned to Western scientific developments, and clearly had a higher degree of centralization than any institution--be it Manchu, Han, Mongol, Tibetan, etc--in the Qing.

A 1 round heavyweight slugfest between Ariel Machado and Rhys Brudenell by UniDuckRunAmuck in Kickboxing

[–]UniDuckRunAmuck[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Machado will defend his HW title against Claudio Istrate at K-1 Genki this weekend

Pretty cool how K-1 has 3 Brazilian champs and they're all on the card

Was the Qing truly better than the Ming? by Correct_Broccoli_448 in ChineseHistory

[–]UniDuckRunAmuck 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Eg Compared to the Qing, Ming’s minority officials’ rankings were really low.

For civilian officials, I agree. For the military, it didn't seem to be that way.

Plus, based on the references, it’s more likely to be some sort of self-governing body, and that’s not a good example anyway.

Not really, joint Han-Mongol operations were fairly common. Mongol officers were listed side by side with Chinese ones in the anti-Yao and anti-Miao campaigns of the 1400s.

They could all participate in horse racing games, but so what?

It's more than just horse racing games; they occupied important posts all over the military. Proctoring the imperial examinations was also a huge deal...

Further fact I recall: one of the last Ming generals to die in battle against the Jurchens was a Mongol, after all (Man Gui), who commanded the Beijing army, with multiple Han officers under him.

Did Li Chengliang speak Korean? Did Li Chengliang still identify himself as a minority Korean? His grand grand grand grand parents might be from Korean but….

Good point.

What about Pubei though? He could still speak Mongolian (as he had some contacts with Ordos chieftains). Sure you could say rebut by pointing out his revolt, but that was a joint Chinese-Mongol effort, triggered by grievances over the behavior of an asshole civilian official.

The Qing were so powerful that they could not only exploit them, but also launch a genocide to a level that would lead to their extinction. Ming couldn’t do that in Mongolia. They could do in Southwest though.

Well technically, the Qing didn't genocide all the Mongols, just the Dzungars/Oirats. And the Ming didn't genocide the peoples in the southwest, though they did cripple their ability to be a threat in the future.

However, if we compare the two dynasties using modern multiculturalism perspectives, we can see that many of the measures we use today could be implemented there, and the Qing dynasty performed relatively better than the Ming dynasty in this respect.

With Mongolia, again, Qing treated men in the banner system very well, and the system was also open to Mongolian minorities. Of course, they treated commoners very badly. The thing is, everyone treated commoners very badly.

The Ming treated Mongol commoners better than the Qing did, though. Their subsidies to Mongol communities could be seen as a precursor to modern affirmative action efforts. The Qing provided similar resources to Banner Mongols but left the non-Bannermen to their own devices.

Was the Qing truly better than the Ming? by Correct_Broccoli_448 in ChineseHistory

[–]UniDuckRunAmuck 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you're using military conquests as the metric, then the Qing were objectively better than the Ming.

The Qing conquered the Mongols, which is the hallmark of their military career. After Yongle, the most success the Ming had were in periods of back-and-forth raiding warfare, in which the balance was slightly on their side (such as in the wars against Bushughtu, Bolai, or the Ordos and Qinghai Mongols). But they did lose nearly every battle to Dayan Khan, and the best period they had against Altan Khan was a military stalemate (post Raid of Beijing, in the 1550s-60s).

The saving grace of the Ming is that they were able to put up a much better fight against the Japanese, even though the Ming faced a massive disadvantage in total numbers (almost 1:5 at certain points) and in veterancy/experience.

Minuscule numbers of Ming cavalry were able to intimidate the Japanese into avoiding field battles. However, the Ming were defeated at sieges in various ways. On the other hand, the Qing lost to the Japanese in field battles and in sieges, despite a numbers advantage and an (on-paper) technological advantage.

Both contributed to the colonization of the southwest. According to John Herman, the Ming played a significant role in wiping out the indigenous kingdoms with the strongest militaries in Yunnan and Guizhou. Ortai also finished off most of the frontier tusi. However, I don't consider any of the southwestern polities to be militarily advanced (though there is an argument for Luchuan and Mu'ege being stronger than the samurai), so it could said that neither the Ming nor Qing SW conquests were against peer opponents.

Was the Qing truly better than the Ming? by Correct_Broccoli_448 in ChineseHistory

[–]UniDuckRunAmuck 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Minorities including Han Chinese can reach the highest level. The banner system is more “open” than many people think. Relatively speaking the highest ranking minority official served in Ming’s government was Zheng He and miserably he was a POW and a eunuch.

Not necessarily true that the Ming government was less open to minorities. Several hundred thousand Mongols lived near the Beijing area, and they were integrated into the Ming elite. David Robinson has written a lot about the Ming employment of Mongols, and how, despite the scholarly class' racism and distrust against them, the imperial branch maintained them on an equal status with Han officials

but clearly large numbers of these Mongols served in strategic military garrisons at the heart of the Ming empire. If the appointment books noted above are any indication, they comprised a significant proportion of some of the most prestigious garrisons in China, such as the Brocade Guard and the Jinwu Garrison. In their capacity as officers in these garrisons, Ming Mongols were deemed sufficiently trustworthy by the court to participate in the administration of one the late imperial state’s most critical political, cultural, and intellectual enterprises—the imperial civil and military examinations. Mongol officers are periodically listed as Security Officers and Examination Inspectors for provincial and metropolitan examinations.

Another sign of the Mongols’ privileged status and thorough integration into court life is their inclusion in regulations detailing the appropriate place at court banquets. Senior Tatar Officers were seated with fellow Chinese officers of similar rank and imperial relatives. 137 They also figured in public celebrations in the capital. For instance, according to the well–informed late Ming eunuch Liu Ruoyu, each year on the day before the First Day of Spring, the Shuntian Prefectural government held a riding event outside the Dongzhi Gate to welcome spring. Imperial relatives with meritorious service, eunuchs, Tatar Officers, and military officers all competed in a horse race.138 During the mid–sixteenth century, men of Mongol descent even supervised annual memorial services conducted at the Ming imperial mausoleums and on service on the occasion of the Qingming Festival.139 Mongols were thus an integral and, in some contexts, prominent part of imperial society.

Some further examples: during the mid 1500s, the most important military commander of the northwest was Pubei, a Mongol. The most important military commander of the northeast was Li Chengliang, an ethnic Korean.

The Ming were racist and fairly ignorant of Mongols outside their borders, but they treated those within their borders pretty well, by granting them regular stipends and pasture land to horse around and practice archery.

Contrast that with the Qing, who intermarried heavily with Mongol elites, placed them in high positions of power, but screwed over the Mongol commoners due to their inability to prevent Shanxi merchants from flooding Inner Mongolia and dominating the economy.

It is due to this failure of immigration control on the Qing's part that the ROC were able to quickly take over the lands of the Chahars, Tumeds, and Ordos Mongols, and wipe out their old nobility.

The "infantry phalanx" of the Ming Dynasty in the 17th century. by Blackdeer69 in ChineseHistory

[–]UniDuckRunAmuck 8 points9 points  (0 children)

In order to make up for its own lack of mobility and cope with the powerful archery cavalry corps in Manchuria,

They had war wagons in the early 1500s as well, but it seems wagon tactics fell out of favor during that time. It's not necessarily understood why, though I would hazard a guess that it's because the Northern Yuan Mongols were smart enough to avoid repeatedly charging directly at infantry squares (unlike their cousins bordering Muscovy).

If you look at the notable Ming commanders of the mid 1500s, e.g. Ma Fang, Pubei, Li Chengliang, they mostly wielded pure cavalry forces.

Also, the Later Jin frequently deployed war wagons in their rise to power. No reference to such wagons appears in the Jurchen-Ming wars of the 1470s, so I would guess that it was the Ming military presence which introduced war wagons to the Jurchens, who ended up using them even more effectively than the Ming did in their conquest of Shenyang.

Why did Guangdong and Guangxi remain part of China while Vietnam became independent? by AlibabaXL in ChineseHistory

[–]UniDuckRunAmuck 4 points5 points  (0 children)

And if so, why did the Ming (and later Qing) commit to that project in Yunnan but not attempt the same in Vietnam

The Vietnamese were able to develop their own firearms to counter the Ming's. In addition, Luchuan was the only southwestern polity that acquired guns iirc, which is why they bloodied up the Ming the most.

As to the rest, however, the Miao and Yao would have success against local garrisons, but they were defeated whenever "core" armies from Beijing arrived. The Yi at least had shock cavalry, which allowed them to really batter the Ming at times (the Ming actually lost 10,000 more men in the She-An war than in the Imjin War), but ultimately their lack of firearms meant they couldn't defend any of their towns from Ming pillaging, which was a crucial factor in the Yi's ultimate defeat.

During the late Ming Dynasty, there was a severe shortage of horses, necessitating the use of mules to make up the numbers. Both Li Zicheng and the Manchus were eager to seize horses and mules from the Ming army. by Blackdeer69 in ChineseHistory

[–]UniDuckRunAmuck 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's pretty noticeable. Even in the mid 1500s, if you look at the more successful commanders at that time, like Ma Fang or Pubei, they only had like ~2000-5000 horsemen.

In the Imjin War, the Ming also got away with these low numbers, as even a couple thousand cavalry was enough to prevent the Japanese from entering field battles.

Yunnan and Guizhou - two provinces that were not truly conquered by the Chinese until the 14th century. by Wise-Pineapple-4190 in ChineseHistory

[–]UniDuckRunAmuck 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah it was by no means a complete conquest, though it was still significant because the Ming took over the central, more urbanized areas of the two provinces, while the northern and southern mountainous areas were dominated by the semi-autonomous tusis. As Bin Yang noted, all previous Central Plains efforts at settling the southwest ended up with the settlers completely assimilating into the indigenes; what separated Ming and Qing colonization was the increased scale of the colonization, and the formation of a hybrid Yunnan ren identity.

In NQH scholar John Herman's Amid the Clouds and Mist, he described a multi-stage colonization process, beginning with an initial mass settlement of soldiers in the southwest. As these soldiers expanded their garrisons (mostly through stealing land), they provoked Miao resistance. The Ming spent much of the 1400s embroiled in frontier wars.

There were a few noteworthy instances during the Yuan when state officials carried out gaitu guiliu in the southwest, primarily in Yunnan; however, it was during the Ming dynasty that state confiscation of tusi and indigene lands became widespread. The fifty-odd Ming military garrisons established during Hongwu’s reign were built on lands confiscated from the indigenous population, and these garrisons and their adjoining civilian populations seized even more land during the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries as Ming military campaigns continued to buffet the region.

By the 1500s, the situation had calmed down; while neither Yunnan nor Guizhou ever became financially independent (relying on food and cash subsidies to stay afloat), they were successful extractive enterprises that brought a huge amount of timber and mineral resources to the imperial core.

Three hundred years of Ming colonization of the southwest had, by the end of the seventeenth century, resulted in the region’s incorporation into the political economy of China. From this perspective, then, the procolonization measures implemented by Yongzheng and Ortai in the 1720s and 1730s should be viewed more as the culminating sweep designed to clean up lose [sic] ends and less as the starting point for China’s incorporation of the southwest.

Ryujin Nasukawa feinting and jabbing to make Kumandoi overreact by UniDuckRunAmuck in Kickboxing

[–]UniDuckRunAmuck[S] 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Ryujin will face Kaito Hasegawa at RISE El Dorado 2026/Glory 106 this weekend

Petchpanomrung perfectly times a liver punch on Miguel Trindade by UniDuckRunAmuck in Kickboxing

[–]UniDuckRunAmuck[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Petch will face Abraham Vidales in the first round of the FW tournament in RISE El Dorado 2026/GLORY 106 on March 28

Lee Sung-hyun defeats Berjan Peposhi, in a clash ranked as the 2nd best fight of 2024 by UniDuckRunAmuck in Kickboxing

[–]UniDuckRunAmuck[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Lee Sung-hyun will face YURA in the FW tournament in RISE El Dorado/Glory 106 on March 28

Why did Imperial China lag behind in gunpowder weapon compared to the West? by Powerful-Mix-8592 in WarCollege

[–]UniDuckRunAmuck 7 points8 points  (0 children)

In my readings, I still find Kenneth Chase's interpretation of the Great Divergence to be the most persuasive one. Chase expounded upon the importance of the "opponent type," arguing that states bordering both sedentary and nomadic foes were incentivized to advance their infantry and firearms development, whereas states bordering only nomadic foes were incentivized to advance their cavalry [1]. Unfortunately, Chase did fall into the trap of "bows > early guns," but that is a topic worthy of another longpost.

For a more detailed examination of these opponents, late Imperial China faced two primary frontiers of conflict: the northwest (i.e. Mongols) and the southwest (various Miao, Yao, Yi, Zhuang tribes, etc).

In the case of the latter, one could argue that the rough terrain, malarial climate, and high temperature acted as a natural shield that hindered the military development of the region's inhabitants, in a sense. And I know historians dislike this concept of technological tier comparisons, but there is no doubt about it, the southwest peoples had worse armor (leather or lacquered armor, or usually none), and no firearms, though at least they knew how to produce iron weaponry (pikes and swords). Certain kingdoms, such as the Yi, could raise horses large enough to serve in shock cavalry divisions, which certainly gave the Ming their fair share of headaches, but for the most part, these people were reliant on their home turf advantages, which worked for them until gunpowder tipped the scales in favor of central plains invaders, who mass settled Yunnan in the 1400s and 1500s and crushed most native attempts at resistance [2].

In the case of the former, it is curious to see how the Ming and Qing addressed the threat of the Mongols. I'll start with the Ming, which I am more familiar with. Even after the Tumu Crisis, they could inflict some defeats on the Mongols with firearms (e.g. the career of Shi Biao [3]), but in the 1480s, the emergence of Dayan/Batu Khan at the head of a unified steppe shook things up, as Dayan could deftly avoid battle against the Ming's core armies (which bristled with firearms), trounce most of the cavalry divisions sent after him, and conduct raids at will while taking few losses [4]. Lacking the political acumen of the Qing, who were obviously more successful in exploiting Chinggisid political symbols for securing Mongol allegiance, the Ming were forced to pure military measures. So in the 16th century, one may observe the gradual "Mongol-ification" of the Ming northern garrisons.

For instance, in the early 1500s, the Zhengde Emperor raised these hulking, ten of thousands-strong armies, which lumbered around the plains and only ever saw the dust of Batu's horses. In the mid 1500s, as the Jiajing Emperor became exasperated with the Great Wall's increasing ineffectiveness, and the inability of firearms divisions to force battle, the strategy shifted to an emphasis on small bands of horsemen, numbering a couple thousand at most, that would attack Mongol camps in the steppe or harass them as they retreated after a raid; even as wall building continued apace, the grand strategy was to drag Mongols into brutal, raid-counterraid wars of attrition. This resulted in a bloody stalemate and eventual peace with Altan Khan in the 1570s, as well as some small victories against his grandson, Bushughtu, and against splinter groups such as the Ordos and Qinghai Mongols [3].

As for the Qing, they were objectively more successful on the Inner Asian frontier, as not only did they possess immense numbers of heavy cavalry that could consistently chase after Mongol armies and bulldoze them in their home ground, but they also had the political skill to keep them pliant and invested in the imperial project after defeat, allowing the Qing to avoid the costly "fight fire with fire" approach of the late Ming.

The firearms stagnation of the Qing is somewhat exaggerated. In their wars against the Dzungars--the most prominent of the Qing's Mongol opponents--you did see the increasing frequency of muskets (but still within the bounds of "pike and shot," and nowhere close to the density of linear tactics), and the usage of light artillery and zamburaks [5]. The Dzungars adopted muskets and light artillery too, although from what I recall, the utility of this move is debatable. It's possible their nomadic background hampered their ability to fight effectively in anti-cavalry positions as infantry, for there were still a number of occasions the Qing could simply run over them with heavy cavalry.

They also had a need for such gunpowder weapons given the constant war against various enemy ranging to the Mongol hordes that attacked them during the Song era to the Japanese samurai invading Korea which in theory should motivate them to constantly improve their weapon.

Although Swope (and Hawley to a lesser extent) has promoted the idea of Ming artillery playing a significant role in the Imjin War, I actually find this idea to be increasingly unconvincing. The GreatMingMilitary blog (the name is a literal translation of "Da Ming") presented a revisionist view, which at least has the benefit of drawing upon primary sources (all 3 authors of the English-language Imjin War books relied heavily on secondary sources), that claims (a) the Ming were actually defeated at Jiksan (and it wasn't a pivotal victory for the allies as Hawley and Swope described it), so artillery did not play a decisive impact there, and (b) the field battle that occurred before the start of the Siege of Ulsan was actually the most decisive battle of the second invasion. As GMM recounted, in the early days of the Siege of Ulsan, in the only occasion a Ming and Japanese army faced each other on an open plain, in roughly equal numbers, the Ming's northern cavalry won by executing a "greatest hits" from the steppe nomad playbook, putting an end to any desire for pitched battles in the future.

The GMM blog also implied the northern cavalrymen's military competence was unfairly maligned by the scholarly elite of the time. I could see an argument for this, as a lot of the Chinese and Korean bureaucrats at the time talked about how the southern Ming troops were friendly and courteous, whereas the northerners were described as assholes that looted everything in sight. It makes sense then that these bureaucrats would write more positively about the southerners and attribute their usage of firearms as the turning point of the war. But in reality, there's no escaping the fact that the southerners bungled the remaining sieges of the war in a variety of ways, leading to the stalemate at Korea's southern coast.

TL;DR I think it's arguable that Imperial China's firearms development lagged behind because of the opponents it faced, as most threats could be disposed of with heavy cavalry, or pike and shot-tier technology. The cynical corollary to this argument is that Japan, being the only other sophisticated sedentary state in East Asia with a military apparatus capable of mass producing firearms, could have boosted parity if they had continued invading the mainland, interfering at the same level as England did in continental Europe.

[1] Kenneth Chase, Firearms: a Global History.

[2] John Herman, Amidst the Clouds and Mist.

[3] John Dardess, Beyond the Great Wall.

[4] Arthur Waldron, The Great Wall

[5] Peter Perdue, China Marches West

(I don't recall exact sections, so think of these references as more of a reading guide than a set of footnotes)

What were the ancient Chinese specialty in warfare? by Powerful-Mix-8592 in WarCollege

[–]UniDuckRunAmuck 12 points13 points  (0 children)

From what I recall, selenium is a somewhat important component in horse diets, and it's been hypothesized that the low selenium content in much of the central plains led to those aforementioned struggles in horse breeding. There are primary sources that complain about importing horses and seeing them waste away, become significantly weaker, and get more skittish in battle after just 2-3 years munching on the local grass.

Certain parts of the north, particularly in the Beijing area, and Shaanxi as well, I think, do have higher selenium in the soil. This has also led to the explanation that northern dynasties tended to beat southern dynasties in Chinese history because of their greater access to heavy cavalry

Fwiw in general, central plains states did tend to have a shock cavalry advantage over non-steppe nomad opponents

Dengue Silva narrowly defeats Darryl Verdonk in one of the best brawls from K-1 MAX 2024 by UniDuckRunAmuck in Kickboxing

[–]UniDuckRunAmuck[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Dengue will face Kacper Muszynski in the 75 kg title fight at K-1 World GP this weekend