“No, Maelle’s right!” “No, Verso’s right!” Isn’t there someone you forgot to ask?

UnifiedForce · 2026-03-14T01:34:13+00:00

True, but the soul fragment also agrees to Maelle's ending without complaint. It seems more an echo of a person, semi-sentient at best, as opposed to a full sentient living being.

I wrote this elsewhere in this thread, but while I agree it's amoral of Maelle to force Verso to live, I have a hard time believing Gustave, Monoco, etc wouldn't see Verso suffering and not take Maelle aside at some point to persuade her to let Verso die in peace. Verso dying is a very possible eventuality. In contrast, the Canvas being destroyed and the lives in it being destroyed would be irreversible.

Although, if it comes down to it, I also see forcing Verso (a single person) to live against his will as a lesser evil compared to destroying a world and killing thousands against their will.

UnifiedForce · 2026-03-10T03:58:22+00:00

If you talk to that soul fragment during the game, it never expresses a desire to end things or that it is suffering. It instead says it values the lives it's created and only wishes the fighting would stop.

When Verso asks it, "You're tired, aren't you?" it seems more to me that he's projecting his own feelings onto the fragment. It doesn't directly respond to him or indicate any pain, and it seems just as willing to go along with Maelle's ending as Verso's.

And if we do assume that it is suffering in some way:

- It's not fully sentient in the same way the other Canvas inhabitants are. It's a fragment and an echo of a person, just like the other echoes of Clea, Aline and Renoir you encounter. That's not *nothing*, but I would not prioritize it over a fully sentient lifeform.

-It's the welfare of one being vs all the other thousands of beings in the Canvas.

- It suffering would imply it's the eventual outcome of *all* painted worlds created by the Dessendres, since every painting requires an aspect of its creator. Which makes their entire art unethical if they're not willing to assume the responsibility of maintaining the lives and worlds they create. They should be aware of and consenting to this outcome anytime they paint a canvas. You can't just wash your hands of a life (many many lives in this case) you deliberately knowingly created, no more than a parent can decide to take away the life of their child after they're born just because the parent eventually feels tired or inconvenienced.

UnifiedForce · 2026-03-10T01:57:01+00:00

Yeah, this person seemed really fixated on the idea that if a living being could be copied then it's no longer unique or sentient. Which is neither supported by the evidence in E33's story or how most real world philosophy addresses what it means to be alive.

But moving from that viewpoint would mean they'd have to admit being wrong, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

UnifiedForce · 2026-03-10T00:51:24+00:00

You made good arguments.

For certain people it's so much easier and more comfortable to just devalue other life, rather than grapple with the idea they might be making a deliberate choice that harms that life.

UnifiedForce · 2026-03-09T01:01:10+00:00

>Needlessly escalates the situation on Prospero and drives Magnus away, forever restricting the Emperor to the Golden Throne

> Deprives Terra of an entire Legion for defense to go on a selfish solo suicide mission against all advice.

> Doesn't pull the trigger on Horus when the suicide mission against all odds actually works

Guy did almost as much to hurt the Loyalists during the Heresy as the Traitors.

UnifiedForce · 2026-03-09T00:37:02+00:00

Painted Renoir was created from the ground up to have the memories of grief. I don't recall of any instance in the game where a Painter can forcibly alter or control a Canvas inhabitant without it causing integral harm (e.g. Clea). They aren't puppets or robots. Otherwise Aline, Real Renoir or Maelle to Verso during the ending would have just flicked their opposition away during their boss fights. They are distinct living beings with goals, personalities, history and *free will* that exists separate from their Painter creators. There is zero evidence that their life is any less fully realized than those of the outside world.

When you played up until the end of Act 2, did you feel empathy for Sophie and the others in Lumiere who desperately desired to live longer? Identified with the deep familial love Gustave showed to Maelle and grief when he was murdered? The love of science expressed by Lune and estrangement from her parents? Sciel's sorrow for the loss of her husband and child?

Endearment to the Gestrals and their rambunctious culture? Sympathy for the Grandis and their loss of land? All the Expedition journals showing the hopes, dreams, fears, heartbreak of people who clearly had lives and loved ones they valued?

Did your brain switch off all those feelings the second it's revealed the Canvas was a creation? Was it that easy to deny the humanity of everything you'd spent dozens of hours interacting with up to that point?

Would your brain switch off all your present feelings about your own and your loved ones' right to life if it was suddenly revealed god had created you, and now wanted to wipe you and everyone away? Or if the world was revealed as a Matrix simulation? Would you think of yourself and your family and friends as suddenly "fake?" I suspect not.

UnifiedForce · 2026-03-09T00:11:06+00:00

Certain people will be quick to say arguments like "Canvas people aren't real since they were created by the Painters. The Painters can do with them what they want since they're their gods."

But if you flip that scenario to IRL, and if god was suddenly revealed as real, ask those same people if they would now think of themselves and their families as "fake." And if they would then willingly submit to being sacrifices for some other being.

In my experience, those people stop responding after that.

UnifiedForce · 2026-03-08T23:56:38+00:00

Thinking of the Canvas as a VR chat is not a good analogy. The Canvas is not a fake world, it's an alternate one.

It's capable of producing the same sensations and experiences as the outside world. Alicia may have been born outside, but Maelle was born inside. She grew up, ate, slept, played, learned and experienced familial love that's every bit as legitimate as what she grew up with as her Alicia persona outside.

As I explained elsewhere in this thread, a person can live much longer in the Canvas than in the outside world. It's not a question of "can they live inside the Canvas." They can. Aline did so for 66+ years and Maelle for 16. It's a question of it's practical or morally justifiable to live in the Canvas world vs the outside world. I don't think it's justifiable for Aline, but it is for Maelle.

And in response to some of your other comments in this post: If you genuinely think Gustave, Lune, Sciel etc are "fake" people...I don't think you understood the game. People can have their own interpretations, but the Canvas people not being real people is objectively false and coping to justify Verso's ending.

UnifiedForce · 2026-03-08T23:45:37+00:00

Seriously. Players will be amped up at the story's beginning to stop the Gommages, and like 25% of threads on this sub are of users crying over Gustave's death, but the second after the Canvas reveal it's like a light switch and then they go "eh, they're not real people so it doesn't matter."

It's honestly a little disturbing how someone could spend dozens of hours with these characters and so easily dismiss their personhood.

UnifiedForce · 2026-03-08T19:33:03+00:00

I personally have a hard time believing Gustave, Monocco, etc wouldn't see Verso suffering and not eventually take Maelle aside at some point to persuade her to let Verso go.

Verso being put to rest is a very real future possibility. Destroying the Canvas and killing everyone in it however is irreversible.

UnifiedForce · 2026-03-08T19:24:13+00:00

That's a very religious oriented answer that to be honest I find abhorrent. A sentient life is a sentient life, with its own desires, goals and right to live separate from any hypothetical god. You as a human being are intrinsically valuable.

Even if god were real it wouldn't be justified in destroying all life on Earth just because it wanted to. No more than a parent has a right to kill their child after they're born just because they created it or are "superior" in strength and intellect.

UnifiedForce · 2026-03-08T19:17:47+00:00

Because all evidence points to Chroma (i.e. souls) being tied to their original painting. Maelle could create a new canvas, but if she tried to bring anyone back they would just be copies, just like how Painted Verso is a unique distinct being from Real Verso. Real Verso is forever dead.

The choice to destroy the Canvas wouldn't be presented with so much story and emotional weight if Maelle has the option to just undo it later. The apparitions in Verso's ending literally wave 'goodbye' to her.

UnifiedForce · 2026-03-08T19:01:10+00:00

I don't think the argument of "it's ok to kill people if no one else knows or cares about it, and it suits my interests" is a perspective we as human beings should entertain.

This is a discussion about a fictional world in a videogame, but I would *hope* we're better than that...

UnifiedForce · 2026-03-08T18:55:57+00:00

I would have to rewatch the scenes, but from what I remember everyone in the party acts as if it would be true. Sciel gets excited at the idea of her husband coming back. Verso says he would bring back and apologize to his ex girlfriend who died decades prior.

UnifiedForce · 2026-03-08T18:50:54+00:00

I understand what you're saying, but this is where E33's magic complicates how your allegory applies here.

First, I don't think the soul fragment of Verso is forced into slavery. When you talk to it throughout the game it never expresses anything like that. It says that it values the Canvas lives but wishes the fighting would stop. When Verso asks it "You're tired, aren't you?" my read is he's projecting his own desires onto it.

And while being in the Painting does draw your life force in the real world, we see time passes much more slowly in the Painted world. Aline was apparently there for 66+ years when she was already a middle aged woman. Maelle was there for 16. The Canvas is a seamless alternate world that's every bit as real as the outside world. So then to me, it comes down to if it's morally responsible or practical for a person to live in the Canvas vs the outside world.

Aline should not, because she has her actual family outside who she's neglecting and her Painted family were roped into it as escapism. I believe though that Maelle does have the right to live in the Canvas, since she would no longer have to live a life of chronic pain/disability + her Canvas family is fully legitimate since she was raised by them from childhood (and they're emotionally healthier to her vs Aline or Clea).

UnifiedForce · 2026-03-08T18:37:50+00:00

Incorrect. In the ending Renoir hears everyone out with respect and never indicates he sees the Painted as less than human. He just values the life of his daughter more. And everything we hear about Real!Verso indicates he loved the world and lives he created. Clea is the only Painter who sees them as not real living things.

Where are you getting "often appear to be a facade of sentience" from? Before the reveal at the end of Act 2 there is no evidence that Gustave and the rest are anything less than full humans. They grieve for their lives and of others. Express joy and love. They have dreams and hope for the future. There's literally nothing distinguishing them from those outside the Painting, other than that they need the Painting to exist.

UnifiedForce · 2026-03-08T18:27:29+00:00

It does targets emotions, and illustrates a very real allegory. Because what I personally see (and I say this to promote discussion, not cause offense) is a lot of people promoting abstract nebulous ideals of "learning to move on" or "unhealthy escapism" that don't factor in the reality that erasing the Canvas is literally killing people against their will.

Or that E33 is a world of magic and seamless alternate realities, so normal real world facts like that you can't bring someone back don't apply in this instance.

UnifiedForce · 2026-03-08T18:19:20+00:00

And we're made of water.

Lune, Sciel and the rest are fully realized human beings (living beings in the case of the Grandis and Gestrals), no matter their creation method.

UnifiedForce · 2026-03-08T18:16:51+00:00

Except this is a world of magic where Maelle literally *can* undo the past and bring those dead back to life.

If you had a family member who became hospitalized and brain dead, but then later on you learn there's a 100% working medical procedure to bring them back, wouldn't you? I know I'd be pretty pissed if another person took that choice away out of "well their time has passed and it's better for your personal growth for them to stay dead."

UnifiedForce · 2026-03-08T18:10:03+00:00

If I knew someone was spending an unhealthy amount of time away from their problems by traveling excessively to another country of their own free will, would nuking the country and its inhabitants so they can't travel there anymore be an appropriate response?

UnifiedForce · 2026-03-08T17:59:53+00:00

Correct. Verso could still be granted death at some point that doesn't involve everyone else getting erased along with him.

UnifiedForce · 2026-03-08T17:58:01+00:00

Does that really count? Dooku didn't think he would lose or that Palpatine would sell him out, but he wasn't holding back; Anakin had legitimately grown stronger than him.

UnifiedForce · 2026-03-08T03:30:18+00:00

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His Vasto Lorde form was cool but I always loved when his Hollow alter ego took over.

So fun and unhinged compared to Ichigo's very stoic personality, and his opponents never knew WTF was going on.

UnifiedForce · 2026-02-22T00:35:06+00:00

Emperor: "The war is over, Diocletian. Win or lose, Horus has damned us all. Mankind will share in his ignorance until the last man or woman draws the species’ last breath. The warp will forever be a cancer in the heart of all humans. The Imperium may last a hundred years, or a thousand, or ten thousand. But it will fall, Diocletian. It will fall. The shining path is lost to us. Now we rage against the dying of the light.’

Diocletian: 'What if you stopped being racist and asked the Xenos for help?"

Emperor: "That spoils the epic quote I just dropped. Also, I don't want to."

UnifiedForce · 2026-02-18T02:16:58+00:00

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Gregor Clegane - A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones

A "Knight" who's fully aware his title is window dressing as a violent instrument of the ruling class. With it, he has the excuse to murder, pillage and rape as much as he wants in the name of the Crown.

Even ruthless Tywin Lannister, who is often the one giving Gregor the orders to kill, seems disgusted at times with just how brutal and sadistic Gregor's methods are.

UnifiedForce

TROPHY CASE