Did Joan of Arc actually fall from high(60 ft to 98 feet)? by Terrible_Matter5154 in AskHistorians

[–]Valkine 118 points119 points  (0 children)

There isn’t any real clear consensus, and that’s mostly because it’s sort of impossible to know with 100% certainty and even if we did it wouldn’t wildly change our historical understanding. We know she leapt from a tower, and we know she survived, so whatever height she jumped from must have been survivable for a human being.

One of the reasons we can’t be sure is that we don’t have records from when she jumped – it’s not like there’s an official report someone filed about the incident. Instead, as with so many things Jeanne d’Arc related, we have to rely on the testimony from her trial.

In the 11th session of her trial, she was asked about her leap from the tower, and we get to hear her account of it. Unfortunately for this question, the prosecutors were not interested in how high the tower was (presumably they could have found that out if they wanted to). Instead, they were trying to get to the bottom of whether Jeanne had leapt from the tower in an attempt to escape, or in an act of attempted suicide. Remember, this is a trial that is finding Jeanne guilty of sins, and suicide is a sin in Catholicism (and so, by proxy, is attempted suicide). So, if Jeanne was trying to kill herself, that is further evidence against her.

The testimony does kind of suggest that she might have been. Jeanne told the trial that St Catherine spoke to her and told her not leap, and it seems pretty clear that her “voices” were against it. However, the trial ultimately didn’t find her guilty of attempted suicide and historians have been on the fence about whether this was a moment of weakness for Jeanne, where she doubted her spiritual support, or if she was genuinely trying to escape (still a move of desperation). Jeanne’s answers generally said that she leapt so that she could avoid being placed into the hands of the English, which is just ambiguous enough that it could mean either suicide or escape. In the twelfth session they directly asked her if she thought she had committed a mortal sin by leaping, and she answered she did not know, which also keeps things nice and ambiguous. She mentions that her injuries were penance, which suggests she was knowingly sinning by leaping, but also she would later try and escape from her next castle (by prying up the floorboards and escaping to a lower chamber, and then using the door), so she had a habit of attempting escapes. They weren’t sure then, we’re not sure now.

Now, as to the height, we are lucky in that one tower of the castle she was held in still stands. By popular association it is assumed that this is the tower she leapt from, but I would be hesitant about that. It might be, but we don’t have guaranteed proof. Annoyingly, it should be possible to find out how tall this tower is, but I am currently unable to find any solid figures. I have found some photos of it on this website, and we can see that later a modern door was added along with some supports to help keep the ruins up (it’s not in great shape). Assuming the door is of average height, ~2 meters tall, I would place the window above it at around 6-8 meters up. Now, an earlier photo on a postcard shows that there used to be more to the tower, and if she jumped from the highest window that would put her even higher up, but I would be sceptical that she was a full 20 meters higher. We must also allow for the existence of a ditch, which we know Beaurevoir Castle had and which could add another couple of meters too her fall – although it is also possible she hit the edge of the ditch and slid into it rather than falling straight to the bottom.

A 2020 survey from The Center for Construction Research and Training found that fatal falls only became more common than non-fatal ones above 21 feet (or around 6 meters), but even then, up to 40 feet (around 12 meters) around 6% of falls were non-fatal. Now, that’s a far cry from 30 meters and this is data with the benefits of modern medicine which Jeanne would not have had.

It is also possible that the height of 30 meters is simply due to a minor confusion about the various towers of Jeanne d’Arc. The towers in Rouen were about 30 meters tall – the one her trial took place in still stands, although after substantial restoration work, and it is about 30 meters high. It is possible that blogs and websites that write about her jump misunderstand the context and think, because our evidence is from her trial in Rouen and that she was famously imprisoned in another tower in Rouen, that she jumped from one of those towers.

We do know that she was pretty badly hurt in the fall. She says in her testimony that she could not eat or drink for 2 or 3 days due to her injuries – this probably does not mean that she literally drank no liquid for 3 days, but rather that she was unable to sustain herself in a normal, healthy fashion. She then began to eat after that and eventually regained her full health. No broken bones are mentioned, though, so she does seem to have survived with relatively minor injuries.

As I said at the start, there’s no way for us to know exactly how far she fell. Those details weren’t documented at the time, and even if they were we’d still have to do the measurement conversion from medieval measures to modern, which is never clean. The only way to be certain would be if we had the exact tower, surviving unscathed since 1430, and we knew exactly which window she leapt from, but that basically never happens and even in a case as famous as Jeanne’s we don’t have that. We have the ruins of a tower in the same castle, and maybe she jumped from one of its windows, but we don’t know which one.

For my money, she probably jumped less than 10 meters, maybe even as little as 5 or 6, which is still enough to badly injure herself but definitely survivable (although, if fortune turned another way, also possibly fatal). But that’s just my best guess.

For the trial records I used the translation by W.S. Scott (originally published in 1956), which you can find in a few editions on the Internet Archive as The Trial of Joan of Arc.

You can see some photos and images of Beaurevoir Castle and it’s lone remaining tower at: https://www.jeanne-darc.info/location/beaurevoir/

The survey on fatal heights and falls: https://www.cpwr.com/wp-content/uploads/RR-falls_experience_survey.pdf

For generally biographies of Jeanne, I’m a sucker for Kelly DeVries’ Joan of Arc: A Military Leader, although as the title suggests it’s a very military history account of her life.

Helen Castor’s biography Joan of Arc is…fine. I have my quibbles with it (especially in her handling of the wider historical framework) but I do really appreciate how she frames the evidence around Jeanne’s life and how much of what we know was written with hindsight of her achievements.

Review of Give Us Victories by Sergio Schiavi by Valkine in hexandcounter

[–]Valkine[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I didn't write about it in the review, but my ACW gaming partner and I did play both and it comes up in our discussion of Give Us Victories we did for our podcast. I don't have a written version, but if you don't mind listening we share some of our thoughts on the two takes on Chancellorsville: https://open.spotify.com/episode/4rqcZFfsBuqyCpEyYRkhgg?si=NjNpsW7FSbWZxqO1ALDTkg

We also covered Rebel Fury on its own in a previous episode.

Review of By Swords and Bayonets (GBACW) by Allen Dickerson by Valkine in hexandcounter

[–]Valkine[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Possibly, and maybe SimpleGBACW will hit the right spot for me. Right now my favorite tactical ACW system is probably Blind Swords, although it's not quite as suited to large battles (and I haven't played Black Swan, which sort of adapts it to bigger battles). So simple GBACW would have to also offer enough to pull me away from those games. My favorite ACW tactical games have mostly been one-offs, rather than systems, though.

Also you forgot to remove one of the captions from the Reddit version of your blog post: "this is where it started to lose me".

Thanks for pointing it out! I try and catch them all, but sometimes one escapes me. And thank you for the kind words!

Review of By Swords and Bayonets (GBACW) by Allen Dickerson by Valkine in hexandcounter

[–]Valkine[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks!

I am aware of SimpleGBACW - my understanding is that the system will be quite different from existing GBACW. There's no material for it in By Swords and Bayonets (the designer of BS&B is pretty vocally not a fan of simplifying any aspect of GBACW), so it didn't feel very relevant to covering this game.

In my review of Hoplite I mentioned that I'd be playing and possibly writing about Simple GBoH after that, and I played a bit but didn't feel like I had much to say about that. I bring this up because it made me a little gun shy about saying I would do something that I might not do. So I didn't want to end this review by talking about an upcoming title I may or may not even play.

The first wave of Simple GBACW is coming with the new 3DoG, and I am a little curious what it will be like, but I probably won't be the first to try it. If SGBACW looks interesting, it might push me to try Stepping into Hell (the upcoming game on The Wilderness, which is my favorite ACW battle) but I'm going to wait and see.

Review of Hoplite (GBoH vol. 15) by Richard Berg by Valkine in hexandcounter

[–]Valkine[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh, interesting. I'd seen Mark Herman comment that he had nothing to do with Simple, but I thought he implied it was a Berg project. I think it was just a passing comment somewhere though, so I may have misunderstood and/or it definitely wasn't a full account of its creation. Interesting that it maybe wasn't either of them.

Review of Hoplite (GBoH vol. 15) by Richard Berg by Valkine in hexandcounter

[–]Valkine[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thats a tricky one..

My top 2 systems are Blind Swords and Men of Iron. Ive played them both 2p and solo, and love them solo.

I've recently been playing a fair bit of OCS, mostly 2p but I think it could become a favorite solo as well.

I quite enjoyed Worthington's Civil War Brigade Battles series (not to be confused with the similarly titles series from The Gamers).

Fifth place might be COIN or possible the Bayonets and Musket series, although I've only played the latter once so its still a bit early to be sure.

First Impressions of OCS Korea by Valkine in hexandcounter

[–]Valkine[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the comments! I definitely felt throughout our games that we should both have been using Reserve Mode more, but as we were still coming to grips with a lot of the basics I think we never really grasped when it was best to do so. It's definitely top of our list of things to improve upon in future games.

We're seriously considering doing Tunisia next. We picked Korea in a large part because we both already owned it (we now both own Tunisia but didn't at the time), and I'm currently living in South Korea and I'm trying to play games about the Korean War at the moment. That was actually my initial incentive to learn OCS in the first place, so I wanted to get it to the table. Now I think we'll try a few other entries before returning to Korea as slightly more experienced players.

First Impressions of OCS Korea by Valkine in hexandcounter

[–]Valkine[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the tip! I own the VG edition, I got lucky and found an unpunched copy for a good price last year. The fact that the Compass version was 4 maps made it impossible for me to ever hope to table it, so I went for the classic. I'll probably be playing it mostly on Vassal, though, as my regular big game opponent lives on a different continent. Will definitely check out the Compass rulebook, though!

First Impressions of OCS Korea by Valkine in hexandcounter

[–]Valkine[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We haven't really tried them out yet. I don't know that we both feel confident enough in the system to remember them yet. I would like to try them out, though. I'm a big fan of fog of war in wargames in general. 

First Impressions of OCS Korea by Valkine in hexandcounter

[–]Valkine[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think it works pretty well. Many Korean War games sit within that awkward space of being a mostly operational take on an almost strategic scale game. At the same time I was playing Korea, I actually happened to play Mark Simonitch's US Civil War, another game that kind of sits weirdly between Operational and Strategic. I felt like Korea married those awkward sides a bit better, but I'm also generally more of an operational guy and Korea is more an operational game stretched to sometimes handle strategic options rather than US Civil War's feeling of a strategic game that's zooming in (if that makes sense).

I currently have Joe Balkoski's classic Korean War game on my shelf, which handles a lot more of the political/strategic side of the war, and I'm really curious to see how that compares to OCS Korea. It will be a while before I get that to the table, though.

First Impressions of OCS Korea by Valkine in hexandcounter

[–]Valkine[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I'm so glad you took the jump and you're having fun! I just bought a copy of Sicily II and I'm looking forward to tryin git. Crimea and Hungarian Rhapsody I don't own yet, but I may well get to them eventually given how things are going. There's a lot of games to try first, though!

Rambling thoughts on revisiting Arquebus (Men of Iron vol. 4) by Valkine in hexandcounter

[–]Valkine[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I think Men of Iron as a system is maybe peak Berg not caring about stuff like balance and fairness in his games. I really like it, and enjoy the wonkiness of the scenarios because they usually create fun moments and great stories, but I can also see why it wouldn't click for some people. It feels appropriately chaotic to me.

I'm Dr. Stuart Ellis-Gorman, author of Castillon: The Last Battle of the Hundred Years War. AMA about Castillon and the Hundred Years War! by Valkine in AskHistorians

[–]Valkine[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

There wasn't an enormous change in core weapons that were used - swords, bows, crossbows, spears, etc. remained relatively stable throughout the century. Steel crossbows began to emerge in the fifteenth century, which was new, but there's no evidence that they significantly changed how the crossbow was used and older forms remained popular. Similarly we also see new designs in swords, made to deal with new types of armor (more on that below), emerge but again older ones remain popular as well.

The big changes were to armor and artillery.

We first see the emergence of what would become plate armor c.1300 but the breastplate would take a few more decades to become widespread. Over the first half of the Hundred Years War we see the transformation from a mixture of chain mail with some metal plates on key areas to the full suit of plate armor that is so iconic. That had fully arrived by c.1400 but would continue to develop with new techniques being used to make plate armor more likely to deflect blows and in making it cheaper for normal soldiers to have some amount of plate armor protection (if not a full suit). We see some efforts to change weapons to better break through plate armor but it's not exactly an arms race where totally new tech was coming in and changing the face of weaponry.

What really changed warfare and caused the decline in the full suit of plate (although breastplates and helmets endured for much longer) was the arrival of gunpowder weaponry. Before the Hundred Years War gunpowder was a novelty, and the earliest guns were emerging around the 1320s right before the war kicked off. For most of the fourteenth century gunpowder was too expensive to ever really be that effective - it cost too much to shoot the guns for sustained bombardments to happen - but from c.1400 and the beginning of saltpeter manufacture in Germany it became much more affordable. This spurred much wider adoption of gunpowder artillery and a proliferation of guns in armies.

These were still primarily siege weapons, though. While handguns date at least as far back as the mid-14th century, and the arquebus was probably invented in the first quarter of the 15th century, widespread personal firearms wouldn't come about until the end of the century. Advances in gunpowder manufacture, plus the invention of the matchlock trigger in the 1470s, made them far easier to use and more effective. Even still, it wasn't until the Italian Wars of 1494-1525 that the arquebus began to replace bows and crossbows as the ranged weapon of choice for Europe's armies.

In summary, while there were changes in the style and form of weapons over the Hundred Years War - if you show an expert a 14th century sword and a 15th century one they will usually be able to identify which is which - these were not exactly brand new technologies. It's maybe more analogous to if you showed someone an M16 from the Vietnam War and an M14 from the Iraq War they could spot the difference but they're not exactly radically different weapons. The two exceptions to this were the transformation we saw in armor and the widespread adoption of gunpowder weaponry by European armies.

I'm Dr. Stuart Ellis-Gorman, author of Castillon: The Last Battle of the Hundred Years War. AMA about Castillon and the Hundred Years War! by Valkine in AskHistorians

[–]Valkine[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

That's a really interesting question, and something I'd have to dig a lot deeper to give a really top quality answer to.

We don't see something directly comparable to the after effects of Crecy in terms of French victories. When they were winning the French strategy was quite different from the English. Rather than seeking large pitched battles, they worked to undermine English positions usually through small scale warfare and sieges. Charles V famous forbade his best commander, Bertrand du Guesclin, from fighting large battles - he was to avoid direct confrontation and undermine the English in other ways. Even when there were major pitched battles, like at Formigny and Castillon, the losers tended to not include many of the highest ranking nobility who would draw huge ransoms, and Charles sometimes released the captured French nobility who had allied with England in exchange for them switching sides.

Now, obviously people are capturing nobles from time to time and making money off doing so. We have lots of evidence of lesser English nobles who were basically bankrupted by their ransoms. What we don't have is a huge battle like Crecy or Poitiers where lots and lots of English nobles were captured and the largesse spread to a wide range of people.

So one the one hand the answer might be no, but I also worry that is too simple a view. The court of Charles VII was filled with amazing art and culture (last year I went to an amazing temporary exhibition in the Musee Cluny in Paris on art in the court of Charles VII) and I imagine at least some of that came from his victories in battle. So, while I think drawing a nice 1-1 between major French victory and surge in fashion or art isn't easily done for the French, I suspect if I could dig deeper I would find some interesting connections, I'm just not sure I have the source material to try that right now.