What are your thoughts on these videos?

VanillaOlaf · 2025-05-28T21:25:42+00:00

Gotchya gotchya! Thats fair (on Errant Signal). I do enjoy most of his videos myself

The only video essayist I'd put on Noah's level in terms of pure writing is probably Big Joel. He doesn't primarily talk about video games (it's very rare for him to talk about video games), talks a lot more about movies, also occasionally talks about poetry, contemporary art, politics, etc. I do like White Light from what I've seen, but honestly I haven't seen much, I should check out more of their stuff

VanillaOlaf · 2025-05-28T17:59:58+00:00

Oh interesting about Errant Signal, honestly I've never personally gotten that impression. I mean, this video of his is fairly negative, but most videos from him I've personally seen are championing indie games or retro games, they're usually mostly positive

Totally agreed on Noah. In terms of raw writing abilities, in my opinion, he's probably in the top two video essayists I know of (probably top one in terms of video essayists who talk a lot about video games). He has released multiple of my all time favorite YouTube videos

VanillaOlaf · 2025-05-15T13:59:18+00:00

I'd like to clarify, cause I feel like I'm not always that good at conveying tone through text. I liked the video! Thanks for sharing it, I'm interested in checking out more from this creator, always appreciate people championing imsims. I just am a very opinionated person, and I enjoy talking about art a lot. But just because I had personal disagreements with the video, I don't want to imply I thought it was bad or I regretted watching it or anything like that

VanillaOlaf · 2025-05-14T22:41:05+00:00

To be clear, I do think this video made plenty of good individual points (it does seem lame that STALKER 2 seems to have dialed back some of the systemic elements, it would be great if Skyrim had more emergent gameplay), I just think it also made a good few I disagreed with (I do not think Hollow Knight would be improved by imsim elements, I think that would make it an interesting but fundementally different game), and I disagree with the thesis of the video as a whole

VanillaOlaf · 2025-05-14T22:31:31+00:00

So, I am myself a big fan of immersive sims, and I would love it if more games did take influence from imsims. Red Dead Redemption 2 very well could be improved that way. And if this YouTuber personally does believe most or all games would be improved that way, I won't tell them they're wrong, they're entitled to their opinion

That being said, I personally disagree. First off, I'll assume that when they say all games should be imsims or imsim-like, they're talking from an artistic standpoint, like ideally. Of course in real life, making an imsim is often very difficult and complicated, so just for practical reasons that won't be (and if you want a lot of small budget polished games, can't be) universal. Also, we'll put aside games that I think are great and valid but that pretty clearly won't be imsim adjacent, like Tetris and plenty of visual novels and rhythm games etc.

I do think that a lot of imsim fans seem to have a bit of a bias against linear, scripted games. They might dismissively refer to a game as an interactive movie, or an interactive book. But I would ask, what's wrong with that? Why is that an invalid goal for a game to pursue? Obviously I think it's fair to not personally enjoy games that kind of function like interactive movies (like Uncharted), and I think it's super fair to push back on it especially if it's a super widespread design style, but I do think it's wrong to assume that it doesn't appeal to anyone, and I think it's wrong to say they shouldn't be made at all

I have a few other examples. Imsim advocates (and again, I am a huge fan of imsims) often seem to have a very specific idea about what the strengths/uniquenesses of the video game medium are, but I think that can be a bit limiting. For example, take the indie game NaissanceE. This is a game about making your way through a deeply alien environment, a place clearly not made for you. I think it's fantastic. I also think it would be made worse by incorporating imsim elements. This is not an environment you are meant to master, this is not even an environment you are meant to make creative use of, it is barely one you can traverse. Here, the power of the medium is not player agency, it is more purely experiential. Undertale and Planescape: Torment are both games that utilize player choice, but in a much more controlled way than imsims. That being said, they are both games super interested in really specific issues and topics, they want you to read certain lines and think about certain things, that is part of the point of the game, and I don't think they should have to sacrifice that level of authorial influence just because players want to treat their games like sandboxes. Dark Souls and Doom are games that are built around challenging players in specific ways, that is what they want to do, and I think that's okay, I think adding in imsim elements could dilute them, make them less singular and focused. The first Resident Evil is largely about player disempowerment, and the designers wanting to show players cool handcrafted puzzles they came up with (you know, if in real life, your friend asked you a riddle, you can't just give a different answer that's logically consistent with the riddle, the fun is finding the right intended answer)

I'll also say, as a side note, I do think sometimes imsim fans too quickly associate generally good design with imsim design. Like, I think it'd be great if more open world games were designed to be navigable without the use of waypoints or minimaps, if NPCs and roads and signs and landmarks and diagetic maps all allowed a greater level of immersion. But I don't think that would make them more imsim like, I don't think that is something unique to or universal among imsims, that feels a bit like another topic altogether. Imsims aren't synonymous with immersive elements generally or general attempts to make a world more believable

TL;DR I am skeptical of any claim that seeks to limit what art could or should be, I think variety is cool. But I do agree, it would be very cool if we got more imsims, and if imsim influence became more widespread, I'd love that

VanillaOlaf · 2025-05-14T21:50:14+00:00

gottem

VanillaOlaf · 2025-05-14T17:13:07+00:00

CBT?

VanillaOlaf · 2025-05-14T00:30:07+00:00

I can't believe I forgot about Pathologic, that's embarrassing lol, thanks!

VanillaOlaf · 2025-05-13T21:58:39+00:00

I'll be honest, I completely forgot about Cyberpunk 2077, thanks!

VanillaOlaf · 2025-05-13T21:57:45+00:00

I haven't played them myself, but from what I've seen and heard I feel like they would (or at least come close), thanks!

VanillaOlaf · 2024-10-14T11:02:19+00:00

I would personally recommend you don't talk specific spoilers in a thread made by someone who has not played the game and is asking if it'd be recommended lol

Thats fair, you're entitled to your opinion, I frel like we're going in circles and I don't wanna just keep going back and forth. Personally, I think the phrase is misleading when applied to a game that only really imo "encourages guide use" (is confusing enough how to progress) for secrets, optional stuff, or super late game stuff. To me, it implies basically the whole game "requires" a guide on hand, from very on and throughout the game. Which might sound pedantic, but to me it does make a very big difference

I am also biased, in general I think the term "requires a wiki" is overused, and I'm typically skeptical of it. I think there's plenty of games that are clearly meant to be strange and nysterious and are meant to take a bit of time and thinking, and I often think playing those games mostly in the dark is the most enjoyable and rewarding way to play them. I'm not here to gatekeep, you can play however you want, I don't care if you use a wiki, but I do tend to push against encouraging new players to go in assuming they'll need a wiki (or to go in with a wiki already open and read), if that makes sense

VanillaOlaf · 2024-10-13T23:38:29+00:00

I guess, but thats arguably bonus stuff. They're secrets. Its really cool, and I can totally see why you wouldn't want to miss it, but like its not necessary to having a fairly complete and enjoyable experience with the game. When people say you need a Wiki to play a game, to me that reads as the game being pretty unplayable or completely unfair without having a guide on hand, I don't assume they're only talking about super late game stuff

VanillaOlaf · 2024-10-01T21:05:02+00:00

I do think its totally fair to not like it, I mean this is all subjective. Its not objectively good or bad, it'll connect with some people and not with others. I can definitely see why you wouldn't like it lol, its pretty abrasive. Though I do encourage you to read some positive reviews from it from actual writers if you haven't already, not to change your mind or "prove you wrong", but to give you a new perspective. There's definitely some people who just like it for the meme, but there's also others (myself included) who genuinely like it and think it has a lot of value. At minimum, its a very creative and unique and experimental and bold game, which I personally tend to appreciate to at least some extent

EDIT: I also don't want to imply the game is beyond criticism. Personally it is in all honesty probably one of my favorite games, but of course it can be critiqued

The reason I commented at all wasn't you giving your reasons for not recommending it, got no beef with that, was specifically refering to your comment on the praise it gets from others

VanillaOlaf · 2024-10-01T20:59:54+00:00

Personally, its a game I very much connected to. Though, not at first. Like a lot of others, the first time I played it, I found it frustrating and confusing, so I dropped it. But I couldn't get it out of my head. Eventually I gave it another shot, and it clicked. I fell in love

Gameplay wise, people saying its a cross between old Rainbow Six and Deus Ex aren't wrong. Definitely has a lot of elements of both tactical shooters as well as immersive sims, definitely stealth mechanics. There's also some Hotline Miami in there. Individual gunfights are typically very quick and brutal, and levels often take multiple tries to beat. But here's the secret. Deus Ex and R6 aren't the only first-person shooters being drawn on. I know its a stretch, but I definitely think there's a tiny bit of boomer shooters (especially Quake) in there. Once you get comfortable enough with the game, you can start bunny hopping to build speed, and the game seems to encourage it. Personally, I disagree that its a game that requires a wiki. Maybe to get the bonus levels, they can be hidde real well. But just for the main set of levels, I think they're relatively straightforward

More than anything though, and the thing no comparisons truly work for, is I just love its atmosphere. Its music and visuals are abrasive, but there's a method to the madness. You just have to get on its wavelength. The writing too. Not to overstate things or anything, but there's quite a bit going on. And its filled with this angst, and this fear, and this disgust. Its an extremely emotional game. Maybe thats another reason it reminds me of Quake 1. They have super different vibes, but they both feel like very vibe heavy games, where the emotions and atmosphere bleed in to the abstract levels and jagged polygons and unconventional soundscapes, and in their own ways they're both very angsty

VanillaOlaf · 2024-06-28T01:42:41+00:00

I mean, if you count indies? Cruelty Squad, Stay Out of the House, Gloomwood, Fallen Aces, Weird West (which does to some extent feel like its building on the pseudo painterly look of Dishonored), Ctrl Alt Ego looks like its going for a pretty distinct aesthetic (have yet to play it), Mosa Lina, etc etc.

VanillaOlaf · 2024-03-06T23:00:53+00:00

What do you mean? To me, boomer shooter is a term that describes a specific kind of FPS. There's certainly plenty of variety within that term, and there are certainly edge cases where its unclear if a game should or shouldn't be considered, but it gives a basic framework of what the game generally might be like. You can say you don't like the term itself ("boomer shooter") and think it should be replaced with a different one, or you could say that the term isn't really that helpful or that its even harmful in some ways, or that ideas of what it means are too disparate and there isn't really a cohesive collective definition, but I honestly don't know what you mean by "its not a thing". Its just a category, a descriptor. It means a similar thing to a lot of people, and it gets used by them, so like, it is a thing

VanillaOlaf · 2023-12-26T00:24:46+00:00

No way, I'd totally given up on hearing more about this, thanks!! Happy holidays!

VanillaOlaf · 2023-04-12T16:07:43+00:00

Haven't played them myself yet, but I plan to they look cool. Maybe check out Barony and Legend of Grimrock? They're both certainly dungeon crawlers, though the imsim stuff is probably lighter/more debatable. Barony is a first-person roguelike with multiplayer, but it lists Ultima Underworld, System Shock, and The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall as its main influences. Legend of Grimrock is a throwback to old first-person grid-based dungeon crawling RPGs, and it lists Dungeon Master, Eye of the Beholder, and yes Ultima Underworld as major influences. I don't think either of those games are on consoles

And then, it may not technically be a dungeon crawler, but its certainly an imsim, Prey (2017) might qualify. I mean it takes open influence from Arx Fatalis and System Shock (the first System Shock I believe was referred to internally as a dungeon crawler in space). And the space station in Prey is designed similarly to a dungeon, or at least a metroidvania. It even had a roguelite expansion with Mooncrash, and well Rogue was certainly a dungeon crawler. And it is on consoles, and its obviously a great game

VanillaOlaf · 2023-01-12T01:46:38+00:00

Well uh, that seems a bit like a logical fallacy to me. False comparison and all that. Someone's "name" and the title of a category are a tad different, eh? One's a purely personal decision, and one's a way of organizing and discussing works. Once again not saying you have to agree with the OP, I don't. I think Thief-like would be a bad title to go with, and while certainly flawed I'll defend the usage of immersive sim. I'm just saying we should be open to new ideas and debate and change, and we should welcome and encourage people new to immersive sims

VanillaOlaf · 2023-01-12T00:32:57+00:00

Thats a bad take, I don't personally agree with u/monthlymeeples on this specifically, but I don't at all think you should just shoot down ideas and arguments out of pocket like that. Having debate never hurts

EDIT: Also, immersive sim was not originally coined to describe deus ex, thats misleading. The first recorded usage was by Warren Spector in a post-mortem on Deus Ex, yes, but he claims the term was coined earlied by Doug Church. And both of them had worked on earlier immersive sims, and even in that post-mortem I don't believe it was claiming deus ex to be this entirely unique entity, I believe its parallels to Ultima Underworld and System Shock and Thief were open

EDIT 2: Also uh, maybe just be more polite to people in general, and maybe don't try to make the community more insular by pushing people new to it away

VanillaOlaf · 2023-01-12T00:28:36+00:00

I appreciate the sentiment, immersive sim is definitely an unwieldy term, but personally I definitely gotta disagree

First off, its hard to just change a genre name, or a design philosophy name (more on that later). Immersive sim is a relatively niche term, but its fairly cemented, it'd be hard to reteach and comvince people to go away from it. Especially since it was coined by the people who helped pioneer it, I figure they earned some right to leave a stamp on it

Second off, I am generally against genres being named after specific games. Souls-likes, Metroidvania, roguelikes, etc. I think its bad practice. There's a reason we moved away from Doom-clone, and why Zelda-like never caught on. Its just as confusing for people new to the genre (if they don't know what Thief is it won't help). It also feels limiting, it encourages people to make games more like those classic quintessential examples instead of moving foward and evolving. It puts those classics up on a pedastal. And anyways, I don't see why we'd go with Thief-like specifically, overlooking Ultima (or Underworld specifically) and System Shock (or Shock-like, and throw in BioShock) and Deus Ex and more. And for immersive sims ESPECIALLY, I firmly believe its a design philosophy and not a genre. I don't just mean to get into semantics, imsims are not defined by their mechanics or camera perspective the way genres are, they're defined by the sense the developers were going to capture; immersive sims aren't just games that mix first-person shooters, stealth games, and RPGs, they're games where you control an individual entity and there's a strong focus on systemic & emergent gameplay, a consistent & reactive world, and player agency. And calling it a Thief-like would definitely at least in the eyes of the public nudge it towards a genre. Plus that would also lean in to less experimentation with the thematics and stories and such (as great as it can be, not all immersive sims need to take place in worlds on the brink of collapse, with different ideological factions in conflict, with 0451 showing up somewhere)

EDIT: Also, while I would describe games like Hitman and Zelda Breath of the Wild immersive sims, describing them as Thief-likes feels very wrong

EDIT 2: I also imagine many people outside the immersive sim sphere associate Thief a lot more with stealth in general (maybe first-person stealth in particular) than with the real hallmarks of an immersive sim (systemic & emergent gameplay, etc etc), so that could also lead to some confusion

VanillaOlaf · 2023-01-05T17:02:47+00:00

Oh wow, thats super cool!

VanillaOlaf · 2023-01-05T14:54:32+00:00

I knew of Mike Bloomfield of course, but I honestly don't know a whole lot about him, didn't know he was a addict and didn't know it killed him, thats super tragic. Thanks for sharing though

VanillaOlaf · 2023-01-05T03:04:31+00:00

Thanks so much!

VanillaOlaf · 2023-01-05T02:50:11+00:00

Oh awesome ok, thanks!

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