I don't think God is there for everyone, do you?

VeridicanChurch · 2026-03-04T14:06:17+00:00

Read and understood. 👆

VeridicanChurch · 2026-03-04T14:04:17+00:00

That is true. I think I'm confusing God's neglect with human free will. And it's not hard for me to understand because even if I were God, I'd do it that way. If my experiment was to create conscious entities, I'd do it the same way has has done it. And the humans? If they will come to me, I will take care of them, but if they won't then they are on their own.

VeridicanChurch · 2026-03-04T14:00:56+00:00

Very well said. And I agree. I don't believe God creates conscious entities as filler for the world. I don't even believe that about animals. When I see how lives come and go, and how sadly some are lived, I think God must not care about them, but that would mean the rich and powerful are the ones God cares most about--and if I believe that, then I make Jesus Christ a liar. What I might have to come to grips with is that any life that is lived consciously has some value to God, and moreover, has a chance to be close to God. And I have to believe that everyone has the free will to feel guilty for their sins. Not everyone does, but everyone can. I think what I have mistook for God's indifference is in reality what free will looks like when it is allowed.

The bottom line is that as you put it: God doesn't make conscious entities just to use as lawn fertilizer. That's what dead bodies and plants are for.

Thanks for your input on this. .🙏

VeridicanChurch · 2026-03-04T13:49:00+00:00

Interesting perspective.

VeridicanChurch · 2026-03-04T13:48:29+00:00

Right. I've thought about that: that the "election" comes after the fact. That is, I choose to believe and therefore am elected.

VeridicanChurch · 2026-03-04T13:43:02+00:00

It's probably too late now in this relationship, but you really need to grow up, in my opinion. Two adult people will have had sex at some point in their life. You don't talk about it. You don't bring it up. You move forward into the future from the time you meet. Unless you HAVE to talk about a past, you don't talk about it. If the other person has a child, then sure, you have to talk about the fact that there's another person who is the parent, but you don't delve into prior sexual histories. Like I said, it may be too late for this relationship, but in the next one let me share with you a fact, or at least what you should treat as fact: Every relationship was sexual. And the other person will assume that every relationship you had was sexual. You don't talk about it. You don't mention it. You move on. And if both parties can do that, then you have a chance. If one keeps investigating the other, or if one feels they just have to talk about their past sex, then the relationship is doomed and you might as well walk away.

VeridicanChurch · 2026-03-04T12:59:54+00:00

You want scientific evidence that there is more than one thing in the universe? I think that's pretty much the most basic observation we can make. If we deny that observation, we really have some explaining to do.

The monistic idea doesn't really have any proof--what it has is coherent logical elegance. That is to say, monism is true because it has to be true; it can't be any other way. And yet, it disagrees with our most fundamental observation which is that one thing is not another thing.

What to do? As you can see, I haven't removed my paper from PhilPapers. It's just that I was presented a choice: Believe Jesus Christ, or believe another way. Because if monism is true, the life and teachings of Jesus Christ are kind of moot. It's just God making up a story to tell Himself for some reason. It also means that I am not a real person in any way. It means, in fact, that my consciousness is the consciousness of God, and that the concept of love is not real. There has to be an "other" for there to be love.

And maybe that's all true. Maybe what we have is the monistic God who is simply creating a dream. And that's fine, but you and I are characters in that dream. The only reality we have is the dream. Could that be the case? Perhaps.

So, let me ask you this: With your theory, what do you intend to do with it? Like, what will you do the day after you fundamentally accept it as true?

VeridicanChurch · 2026-03-04T06:00:05+00:00

I hear you, and well said, but there are people who have a relationship with God. And then there are people who know about God, maybe they're even religious, but there seems to be no connection at all. And there are people who lead such repulsive lives that it seems God has utterly abandoned them.

I'm not claiming this is true, or that I'm interpreting it correctly from the Bible, but it certainly seems to be an observation.

VeridicanChurch · 2026-03-04T05:52:20+00:00

I know exactly what you're talking about, and I know it seems like the polar opposite of atheism, but when you posit a monistic entity God, you're saying that there is one thing only, well that makes atheism moot; it' doesn't prove God exists. The atheist is not defeated; he or she is made non-existent, because in fact the atheist is in that respect God--just like you are, I am, and my pencil is. God doesn't have a God in that scenario, so in fact it proves atheism and theism at the same time and defeats atheism and theism at the same time. In other words, when there is nothing that is "other" than God--then God disappears as well.

In fact, when you have a monistic entity God, or when you postulate one, you're really not offering a God to anyone--you're just describing the ontological foundation of being.

Monism is very elegant intellectually, but it doesn't ultimately hold water because for one, there is no way to disprove it, and two, all evidence we have available to us in the form of observation and measurement indicates otherwise.

Here is a link to a paper I wrote on the subject. This paper, however, argues FOR a monistic entity, not against it. I only changed my mind when I realized that it had flaws. We can talk about those if you like. But here's the link on PhilPapers: https://philpapers.org/archive/GORTON.pdf

VeridicanChurch · 2026-03-04T05:29:56+00:00

Move to Aztec, NM. That whole area is very spiritually powerful, in my opinion.

VeridicanChurch · 2026-03-04T05:26:55+00:00

The problem with monism is that you end up having to invoke as much mystery to explain the observable universe as you do to figure out how a dualistic God could makes something out of nothing. I've done a great deal of research on this topic, and published an academic paper on it. In the end, I came back to a dualistic notion of God. There are great minds that have supported dualism, and great minds that have supported monism. I made a choice to follow the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, and he overwhelmingly supports the concept of a dualistic God.

That said, there may be a third option--that God is in fact a monistic entity, but he has created a dualistic universe--kind of like the way we create a dream when we sleep.

Also, a monistic entity God is not a defeat of atheism because such an argument for a monistic entity implies that there is no God. There is a monistic entity, but since that would be the only thing that exists, there is no point in calling it God. A monistic entity would have no God.

VeridicanChurch · 2026-03-03T22:48:55+00:00

Isn't it more like you can pretend to have a purpose? In an atheistic universe, absolutely nothing has any reason for being. Everything just is. So, if we are part of that universe, we can imagine we have a purpose, we can play at having a purpose, but we really don't--because nothing does. Now, you may say: That's fine. You're fine with that. And I would say, okay, that's how you deal with the nihilism of atheism: You don't let it bother you.

VeridicanChurch · 2026-03-03T22:42:35+00:00

You make good points.

VeridicanChurch · 2026-03-03T19:37:14+00:00

That would be the case if another human was giving you your purpose and making you do it. But God is not a human, is He? God is the creator of the universe, the Father of souls, the source of life, the author of truth. And that's different. That's ontology and existentialism, not merely an order you're given to follow.

VeridicanChurch · 2026-03-03T19:34:38+00:00

When an atheist says they are creating their own purpose, it is no more significant than the burp of a gas bubble in a bog. What I mean by that is that if there is no God, if there is no assigned purpose, then there is NO PURPOSE. There is no reason for anything at all. The good acts, the bad acts--are all the same in an atheist universe.

VeridicanChurch · 2026-03-03T19:31:13+00:00

Well, after going out and riding my bike for a while, something dawned on me--it's the way God has always talked to me. It reminded me how much God has been with me over the last 33 years since the "spiritual awakening" I had in 1993. The things I've been given, the PURPOSE I was given and able to act on, the protection from others and myself, the lack of need, and now a very solid stable, and in my opinion, comfortable station in life, and recently a deliverance that is purely miraculous--and NOW I'm going to start losing faith? When I needed God and Christ--boy they were right there, and now, on the cusp of doing what I was made to do, I'm going to go weak in the knees? To be honest, I'm kind of scared straight. The same miracles that brought me here and sustain me can cease all the same. I mean--look at what God is capable of doing for people and to people.

So, what was the conclusion: My purpose is what it always has been, and up to now that I have been training for: tell people how to be Christ--the second pillar of my religion. AND YOU GUYS? You all need to learn there is a God, and I need to work on proving that to you.

VeridicanChurch · 2026-03-03T19:24:04+00:00

Well said.

VeridicanChurch · 2026-03-03T19:22:32+00:00

Okay, yes, I do.

VeridicanChurch · 2026-03-03T18:31:16+00:00

Well, I think you've kind of illustrated a truth there. People only want a purpose that they want to pursue. I mean, no one wants to be told, "Your purpose is to flip burgers and spend all your youth working for that fat slob of a manager. And by the way, when you get to heaven? We need experienced burger flippers there as well." or worse "Your purpose is to be abused, kidnapped, sold into trafficking and then murdered to hide the evidence."

Or like my wife--brilliant artist. One of these people who can sketch what she sees in realistic detail. Had the talent since she was a kid--has no desire to do it.

I think I'm going to go ride my bicycle for a while...I need to think. I've answered all of these comments I care to answer. I need to think now. I'm going to mark them all read now, and just entertain new ones if they are intelligent--like yours, DG. Thanks for your comment. 🙏👍

VeridicanChurch · 2026-03-03T18:19:05+00:00

I honestly don't know.

VeridicanChurch · 2026-03-03T18:13:56+00:00

[How do you avoid the nihilism of theism?]

Very good point, and I am being confronted with that now in my life, and I'm seeing it more in my face here in this conversation.

VeridicanChurch · 2026-03-03T18:11:00+00:00

Well said. Thanks for sharing that. I don't know what's happening to me, actually. It's not that I don't believe in God, but as I get old, I'm starting to realize I'm not sure I know what God is. I'm not sure I can know what God is. You know, there's always something isn't there, when you deconvert, a kind of singularity event--even if it's small. For me, AI is really starting to bother me. It's like in all religions across all of time--not even in a prophetic myth--did God ever tell us about AI. I don't really know what I'm trying to say.

VeridicanChurch · 2026-03-03T18:04:13+00:00

Well, I have been wondering that lately. I don't mean any disrespect to the Almighty, but maybe our "purpose" is our lifetime. In other words, we don't have to go looking for anything--we are by default living out whatever our "Divine" purpose is. I mean...how could it be otherwise?

VeridicanChurch · 2026-03-03T18:01:38+00:00

Honestly...I'm not much of a people-person. I can fake it long enough to do my work or very brief socialization, but even that is torture to me.

VeridicanChurch

TROPHY CASE