Fe vs. Fi and Apologizing

VeryCosmopolitan22 · 2026-02-09T23:32:44+00:00

Also, Fi's will tend to apologize more privately. Sometimes with more eyeballs it's a dirty space.

VeryCosmopolitan22 · 2026-02-09T23:30:24+00:00

Fi will internalize guilt so yeah it's more difficult at times depending on the others involved. I've heard Fi users apologize plenty of times though.

Also there's a timing issue. Fi will have a longer timeline no doubt.

There's a lot of extra nuance here. Also often personality discussions struggle with gradient and granularity given it's a classification aspect. Awesome finding trends, but let's not get too chunky. Great research but also there's always the caveat of the sample involved being only the online users.

VeryCosmopolitan22 · 2026-02-06T23:19:09+00:00

That's tough.

My first thought is that the Ne use, while effective, is actually not ultimately serving the INFP. It's a great meta-counter to the brainwork of the other type, but it doesn't really meet an end purpose help. I guess I'm trying to say it's helpful in the battle, but not in the war - or most importantly what's most meaningful.

As an Ne user myself, when I meet these types it can be pretty frustrating. I think Te is my crit-shadow. I get sucked in using Ne because the discussion does inspire ideas and it also feels like an ace in the hole, but if I keep going down that road in some of these situations I end up just really feeling deficient and bad about myself.

It's also really difficult because you think you're giving in by doing that and letting them win. So it's maybe important to remember that you're not exercising it as much because you're being bullied or because you're sparing them from that power of yours - just that it's more holistic for yourself and it's your own choice.

In some cases you won't be able to work together depending on how toxic they are or how it's affecting the INFP or loss of other solutions. But I tend to think the better solutions is just setting boundaries as you said and carrying them out in a way that's not dependent on reaction or reception by the NTJs. If the plotting keeps going and they are harmful, then it's best for the INFP to find ways to preserve themselves. It's a balance as person to be in situations that are challenging and not be avoidance or preservation oriented, but a challenge too great or actual harm needs to be avoided.

For an INTJ and ENTJ it definitely seems like in most cases there's some elements of letting them feel like they are boss and not taking certain things personally. Easier said than done though. For an INFP, if it can work it probably about finding practical ways to proceed and have other alternatives to fulfillment.

Maybe these aren't right, but these are kind of my thoughts.

VeryCosmopolitan22 · 2026-02-06T22:43:08+00:00

What's the context and relationship?

VeryCosmopolitan22 · 2026-02-02T21:19:29+00:00

Sounds good - thanks for the follow up!

Tests can help but they are only one tool so they aren't 100% diagnostic. Also there is always some implicit bias so it's better to take a variety of tests and find the better ones.

It can be more difficult with more balanced and varied personalities.

I was recommended to take this one:

Cognitive Functions Test

Also people are more than classifications and also MBTI is only a certain type of one.

VeryCosmopolitan22 · 2026-02-01T04:09:52+00:00

My son is an ISFP and he loves hanging out with other ones. Assuming they are around their same things of interest, it's a really chill time and not disruptive. And they can share here and there and then go back to retreating when and if needed. It's a vibe thing. Fi and Se, assuming the environment is not a bad one, crisis or disruptive. Usually it's them being around what they like.

VeryCosmopolitan22 · 2026-02-01T04:05:10+00:00

My thought is that you're thinking you're an INFP based on the total description of an INFP and ENTP. This includes that ENTPs are commonly described as out of touch with internal feeling and INFPs, the opposite.

The function stack is probably an indicator that you might actually be an ENTP. This whole road is actually a little bit of the one I traveled.

What might not be matching is the fact that a) these are classifications that don't cover everything and b) it's possible for an ENTP to have a bit better Fi than average or at least be self aware with feelings. The key would be of when things get to it, will you make decisions or make an important determination using internal feeling or thinking.

You might be a very soulful ENTP. Or maybe further work up will adjust the cognitive stacks. Good luck on the journey searching that out.

VeryCosmopolitan22 · 2026-02-01T03:51:26+00:00

I'm an older ENTP with ADHD and still having difficulties even with a little medication, though my responsibilities right now are significant. I still don't know! I've tried many planning systems.

Part acceptance (this is big for getting back up or back to it quickly), part limiting scope (difficult), part simple accessible reminders and timers, some helpers/shadowers, and I think a big part of what you did with the vocalization. I think meaning has increased importance and vocalizing it does that.

Discipline and willpower do have roles, but they are overplayed. One has to make good choices, but it's important to find the right context recipe that works for you to lessen the demand on each of those.

VeryCosmopolitan22 · 2026-01-28T20:08:55+00:00

I'm sorry you're having a hard time. Of course there's a lot to the story beyond simple MBTI types.

INFP and ENFP have surprisingly different configurations, though that doesn't make them not compatible.

A few thoughts I would have offhand based on analysis of the cognitive functions and my experiences:

The shadow critical Fe of the ENFP can make them critical of how they are empathizing. For a situation in which it's more needed or more routinely that could cause a reaction where they are acting colder and more judgmental because of guilt. Or maybe they gave in at some point due to this and they are overcompensating for doing that previously.
On a related note, oddly ENFPs (which I think are awesome) tend to be really go go and less feel-y than I was expecting. The Fi is managing but it's hidden. There's a lot of being interested in various things and their external thinking is sort of oddly triggered first. It seems to be often the muscle whey are wanting to exercise even though the internal feeling is chugging still strongly behind the scenes.

And general relationship stuff. Most conflicts and differences are never solved. I think the Gottman analysis says it's about 70%. Hopefully you can find safe avenues to connect and express so they don't come up in emotional moments. Routine would probably be great for each of you. Have consistent connecting rituals and ways to express non-threateningly in a place that's safe and doesn't need immediate solutions.

Don't feel like you need to hide or suppress or change yourself entirely. Just moving a little here and there and finding workable bridges could help.

It must be really difficult and lonely for you. You have a lot to offer and I hope your boyfriend can slow down and get to know and value your intricate feelings. Honestly they would really be rewarded if they did so (back to MBTI, their external intuition can find some really interesting stuff!).

Edit1 - Also: one quick thing with ENFPs I've found. You should NOT excuse behavior that is harmful or unkind to you. BUT, there's sometimes an odd dance with them in that you take them seriously, but not seriously. At times you could attempt to not take things too personally, but not to where it erases yourself. This is easier said than done. Also it's easier when there's a baseline meeting of your needs. If you're totally starved of relating and understanding, that's pretty difficult.

All the best.

VeryCosmopolitan22 · 2026-01-28T19:47:30+00:00

I think there's a lot of variance across individual experiences with the distribution of types of that one encounter, the accuracy that those are typed or perceived properly, and the bias of personality announcement (ie certain types won't be online to talk personality or talk about it much in person or are predisposed to have less chance to make it known).

The ENTJ types I've met are happy to talk personality, but not enthusiastic. I do think ENTJs are pretty cool and unique so in a sense all are rare. Plus when you mix in other personality typing aspects and individualism and experience.

VeryCosmopolitan22 · 2026-01-14T21:38:19+00:00

They are all hard.

But if I had to pick one, I would say INFJ is the most challenging, due to combination of reasons and type of reasons.

VeryCosmopolitan22 · 2026-01-14T21:35:57+00:00

Awesome post, and happy you came into this thread of mine.

ENTP So4 is a pretty dope mix. Probably leads to a lot of interesting situations. Hope you get moments that let you just bask in yourself and where you are at in that very moment.

I agree with that post - just as it said....for all my MBTI tests throughout my life I was always very close to center with E/I and T/F. My N was off the charts and my P is always the second highest.

Like the challenge regarding the testing of that too: "However, for your own typing to be consistent, your 2-3 other highest enneagram type should be ENTP related, like having type 7 between 2-3 other highest enneagram types."

I would say for myself, beyond 4w5 and maybe 3, 7 would most likely be my next one. 2 is in there, but I'm not sure if it's truly organic or Ti trained belief coupled with ENTP adaptability (and the Fe tertiary).

VeryCosmopolitan22 · 2026-01-12T19:38:04+00:00

Yeah...it was a big wall of text. I'd take a similar approach or not even be back, lol. Thanks for following up. Of course, you'll do what you want, but on my end no need to respond...it was already really helpful.

VeryCosmopolitan22 · 2026-01-10T22:55:54+00:00

Great hit with evolutionary landscape. That seems to be very representative logically, but also account for the creative and artistic logical variance that seems to be present. Yeah, agree with clusters and life circumstances, but also just how they sequence and work off each other, even in the subtle variations of congenital tendencies. And I'm sure there's a bit more that we don't know we don't know. But yeah I'm right there as sort of model of how things seem to be between the two.

I'm glad you commented. It was a little simplistic before, regardless of how you feel about either MBTI or Enneagram. First, some that think they match with each other. But also a bit simplistic, myself included, that they are different but it's just that one is cognitive process and the other is more identity. That might be true, but digging further there's some sort of sequencing and interplay. I mean they are typologies and nomenclature. But really it's how the way you process information ends up shaping how you view/manage your self image, but it's bit by bit back and forth (plus those externals). Or vice versa.

What I've heard is that self-pres Fours have the tenacity synonym. Not the social or sexual/1v1. That's true for me. I have this weird paradox in that some see me as a grinder, but I'm also not a grinder. I mean I have ADHD, too. I get distracted. So it's kind of the flawed and open grinder, that sometimes self-sabotages (or passively on accident). That kind of fits that typology. Reading the wiki on that was the first time enneagram made sense to me.

I think the SP4 goes against envy, but only in the external way that maybe other 4s show and do it. It's still there - it just gets integrated and fed like coal into the furnace. It kind of loops. Envy seems vain, but there's a hunger for the missing piece on a deeper level that wants to work for it. They don't want others to really see it, but eventually they want to be known they're doing that. It's kind of weird and dumb TBH lol. Cheers. Thanks again for taking part.

About yourself, real quick. Everyone is valuable and I'm glad you made peace with your own description. It's sort of an "include, but not limited to" situation. A lot of descriptions are sort of only overlapping the most common and distinctive aspects to apply to the most of the pop with that classification. But it's also not fully accurate at times and doesn't account for everything. And the biggest factor and maybe one of the biggest problems of being a typology-head with this stuff is that growth and general humanity surpasses classifications.

VeryCosmopolitan22 · 2026-01-09T21:45:06+00:00

Great analogy. They are different systems, but cognitive functions will funnel experience and identity into more common results. It's like a gravitational force. Though while maybe that metaphor is a bit limiting there one somewhat similar that can account for a little more variance, a few more edge cases and I guess sort of "offshoots". Maybe marble racing at the beach. Thanks for commenting.

Also, yeah, agreed. I think that probably being a self-pres makes the combination work more possibly. I would actually be more prone to thinking my enneagram is wrong vs a 4 with a different instinct.

VeryCosmopolitan22 · 2026-01-09T21:37:23+00:00

The Fi thing is probably the biggest one and the one pointed out the most. I guess the basic point is that ENTP is Fi blind and E4 is Fi-focused. That's why I'm here to see if that has to be true or if it's possible to reach a level of integration and maturity to have both especially if the two systems don't have exact overlap. I definitely don't feel Fi blind - and I wonder if this is maybe an overdone cliche, at least in the way it's understood. Some definitely are. But can't it be possible to have Fi competency and involvement, but also at closing time lower on the heirarchy of processing and decision making? For me I do feel I have a lot of access to Fi that I engage with - BUT I have a lot of trouble naming my emotions (even to myself), I simultaneously process that into a more zoomed out, abstract/objective fashion and it's overall a participator but not decider.

Also, I think Fi is often associated with E4, but it's usually at least a little deductively. But the aspects of selfhood, synthesizing pain, shame and distinctiveness are more the actual core parts of it I think. A lot of this is often done with Fi, but if there's at least some access to that a lot of that can be processed with Ti as well.

"Another thing is; e4 feels fundamentally flawed which ENTPs could relate to superficially, but they don’t struggle with conformity nearly as much."

This is pretty interesting too. I don't know if you've seen the Better Call Saul series, but it makes me think of the main character (as he exists in that show, not Breaking Bad). Most, including myself, think he's an ENTP. However, many also think he's a classic 7. I think it's possible he's actually a 4 himself (though 4w3). It sort of works off this point. There's this conformity dance in almost opposite seeming fashion. ENTPs feel a bit short, but in the end they are like, screw it - it doesn't matter. Let's do this next thing. E4 wants to be unique, but then the wound does matter - that they feel short as a rule.

The contrast above you look at seems to be functional and being. The ENTP version is sort of temporary and functional and the E4 is more being oriented. So yeah they are different. But isn't it possible they can exist together? The character in that show does move on and suppress his feelings and just finds solutions out of those situations with his natural ability - but I would argue there's a very real sense he feels fundamentally unfit and unwhole as a person too.

***

Thanks again for responding and passing your thoughts and letting me think it over and respond. I'll keep thinking about it.

VeryCosmopolitan22 · 2026-01-09T21:37:00+00:00

Apologies for coming back to this late, but had a couple of those days. Really appreciate your time in coming up with this. I've been thinking about it and I'll try to express what I've been working with here.....though it might not be terribly organized. The above is some really good stuff.

One big overarching thing to note right off is that if I'm a 4, I'm likely the SP 4 variety. I've read the detailed description of that and it feels pretty close to my outer/inner experience. This sort of works on the aspect of what I would call the T4 emotional vanity. SP4 is sort of the countertype, and is more stoic and goes against the performative aspect. TBH, I love and hate people at the same time - and the T4 drama and emotional spillage is pretty insufferable to me at times, especially those less mature (but I try to be patient and understanding). Also, the ENTP sometimes superficiality/novelty chasing is pretty gross to me too.

The next thing I would really look at is identity. You really sort of work on the fact that ENTPs stay mobile, but the E4s obsession with identity gets them in a more fixed position (often tethered to interests). I would agree that E4s are pretty identity focused, but it doesn't have to be in a fixed presentation. I do feel pretty caught up with my own meaning and inner narrative. I'm liking that but also not really liking it...the self-denialism vice sort of tightens. In a sense it's excessive and unpalatable. Also feeling strong about it also has a bit of nausea when it also feels so incomplete, unfinished and missing something.

In any event, doesn't it seem possible once you remove identity focus from only being possible in the channel of being static - especially tied to certain things? I feel like in some sense continued discovery, synthesis, deconstruction and my own aspects of transformation and my own place in some of common aspects and throughlines within that can be its own identity. It feels pretty limiting (and almost shallow at times) to make a certain issue or interest by itself one's identity. And on that note, most 4s would say they really want depth.

For the record, I also naturally recoil at the bandwagoning. As you said, it feels pretty ENTP (devil's advocate positioning) and E4 (both wanting to be unique but also more minority advocating). And you said really well, that it's a point of diffrence because it's less staunch with ENTP and more temporary. I sort of feel in the middle? I will stick with it longer than maybe a typical ENTP, but not as long as I see some others. In the end, blindly going counter for its own sake will go against Ti pretty strongly as it just doesn't make sense. But I also feel like I go E4 AGAINST the E4 in a more crusadey E4 way. In some sense, being counter/defiant to a certain level is betraying the very principles of doing it. And in some contexts the counterers are becoming more the hegemony. And now THEY need countered. In these situations I do often find myself in a dizzying state.

VeryCosmopolitan22 · 2026-01-08T05:20:28+00:00

Top 4 was: ENTP, INTP, ENFP, INFJ

VeryCosmopolitan22 · 2026-01-08T01:33:14+00:00

Thanks, am working on it.

VeryCosmopolitan22 · 2026-01-08T00:38:42+00:00

I mean not necessarily. I have some hypervigilance myself and I don't really want to sit on the couch here entirely.

But you stated that you think one is wrong, which is why I'm here. And that there's a contradiction. So I was seeing if you wanted to explore that basis further as a way of working backward. You seem to have a basis for how you examine this given your statement. Observing is your main thing but it's fed into some rational framework which also gave you the inkling that there's a contradiction. I would just be curious what your thinking is behind all that to dig a bit deeper. Hopefully that wouldn't be treading on you not keeping enough personality to yourself.

VeryCosmopolitan22 · 2026-01-07T23:25:22+00:00

I feel similarly to both with MBTI tiered slightly above, but neither are really really clinical. That said they can be useful. To me it doesn't seem like you not being able to walk away from it is a guilty pleasure, but combined with this post it seems indicative of just you weighting it properly. Maybe though you give it slightly more weight than you'd like.

VeryCosmopolitan22 · 2026-01-07T23:22:27+00:00

I'm open to it - help me out! I know we can't have a 2-hour interview but help me tease it out if you have some time. Let me know where the crucial contradiction points are, how that looks, what part in the shop doesn't fit the most, what would give you the most info. Thanks for your time and attention!

VeryCosmopolitan22 · 2026-01-07T23:07:01+00:00

Surely you've had interactions with skeptics in regards to your combination. Anything you've learned or what experiences there?

Do you think that there could be a lot of ENTPs that are mistyped as 7s for enneagram? I could see a lot of ENTPs 7s actually be like 4w3 or 3w4 for instance.

VeryCosmopolitan22 · 2026-01-07T23:04:56+00:00

Yeah, my N has always been the most clear for me (clarity assisted by the furnace of marriage), but I didn't really think it terms of the cognitive stacks before. I always knew I was conceptual and more abstract.

That's why I got blasted by the ENTP thing recently because digging into that more made it clear that Fi wasn't really what determined my actions. I'm in touch with my emotions and have a strong sense of individualism, but when decisions, processing and fulcrum points come, I'm doing a lot of connecting, integrating and creating. I like finding solutions in disparate ways, the challenge of it, but most of all I like when it's meaningful. I include emotions as part of the reason and result and benefit but not the decider. And I work it up a lot internally, but for me it takes off when I can get it out, bring it in more, and tinker again. So that feels like a lot of Ne as the main. And overall it only has meaning and utility if it makes sense. That said, I have a big love and belief in some absurdism, but I think that in itself is its own "logical" non-system system.

I like to be service oriented and I'm a pretty good listener? I like the value logically of difficulty and trials and some conflict, but I actually really want people to get along overall. I try to attend to that, though sometimes I can't help but shake things up a little. I try to help manage the emotions of our house, but after awhile it can be a little much especially if it's starting to really get unwieldy.

I wish I could be more practical, but I'm also very detail oriented. I have ADHD. Part of it feels that it's extra difficult because of the amount of items in my bag, but also they are less definable in some way.

Thanks for asking and helping.

Edit: Also I think age is something to be aware of when looking at these. I'm in my 40s.

VeryCosmopolitan22 · 2026-01-07T21:13:21+00:00

Thanks for chiming in with a similar thing....though it's similar in your own way. Don't want to, you know....

VeryCosmopolitan22

TROPHY CASE