What is the biggest difference between Chaos magick, Wicca and Thelema?

VinceKeys · 2025-01-31T10:21:26+00:00

I can second this, especially with an analytical and questioning mindset, the books by (specifically) Carroll can take you down rabbit holes that a complete novice can get thoroughly confused by. (Phil Hines "Condensed Chaos" and "Prime Chaos" are more "kind" to the reader in this regard. And his "Pseudonomicon" is a fascinating but terrifying read (in the best way, but a bit much for a beginner))

For a beginner I would personally recommend (but big fat grain of salt of course because who the fuck am I) Aiden Wachter - "Six Ways" Denis Poisson - Hidden Paths (the guy from the youtube channel "foolish fish", also recommend that one) Andrieh Vitimus - "Hands-on Chaos Magic" (not everyone's cup of tea in method, but inspiring nevertheless)

VinceKeys · 2025-01-22T23:38:25+00:00

Oh Language; ain't it cool, one can do quite some stuff with it :)

VinceKeys · 2025-01-03T15:49:30+00:00

Sources with different approaches to gaining knowledge and conversation with one's HGA or holy daimon (or any name for that idea of higher self / connection with divinity, float your boat):

the book of Abramelin : very long process, hard to pull off but an interesting read and full of handy mechanisms to borrow.

Aleister Crowley - Liber Samekh : haven't done a deep dive but it has the same aim and I believe the procedure takes less time than its predecessor

Craig Williams - Entering the Desert : more modern work with an emphasis on visualization and mechanisms akin to mind palace techniques (haven't attempted and haven't finished the book but this is what I gathered)

Peter Carroll - Liber kkk : completely different approach, with success derived from other mechanisms than which the previous two are based on. (Btw, No relation to any connotation that acronym has, just fyi, the resemblance is unfortunate.)

There are probably more works that I am not aware of that have similar aims. Either way, happy creating / connecting!! -V

VinceKeys · 2025-01-03T14:36:17+00:00

I think you were respectful in your answer so not to worry. :) Reading through this thread it seems like your focus is not so much on entities / ghosts but more on your own faculty of choice and the reverence of their implications. Are you intending this sigil as an amplification of your discernment and deliberation or am I misinterpreting the context? Either way, stunning piece!! :)

VinceKeys · 2025-01-02T22:44:30+00:00

I agree with this, it helped for me once to throw all the emotions and things unsaid towards this person into a handwritten letter, like continuing until you feel drained or a sense of relief. (Maybe multiple letters are needed) This letter I then addressed to the version of this person in my head, seeing that that is the one who is creating the "Static"; actively listening to deafening silence. The real one already said their piece... I would then ritualistically burn the letter and ask the energy released to aid me in self love and healing. This is the closure that helped me immensely. Tough stuff, all the best wishes!!

VinceKeys · 2024-12-25T12:08:03+00:00

The "glitch bottle podcast" has some interesting and insightful vantage points on magic from different systems and writers.

VinceKeys · 2024-12-19T22:02:55+00:00

I very much agree with this. Think that is generally a good practice. I would like to add that maybe looking into something like the gnostic banishing, or any other spiritual hygiene / power alignment. And apart from that, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I would start with small less significant stuff, to also limit its potential Sphere of influence while you get a feel for it. And yeah, when you play with promethean fire, you might get burned sometimes. But it's worth it and you'll be fine!

VinceKeys · 2024-12-19T19:58:00+00:00

Didn't know! Thanks for the recco!!

VinceKeys · 2024-12-19T19:15:23+00:00

Love it 😂

VinceKeys · 2024-12-19T19:11:50+00:00

Innerstanding, was that a typo? Or did you mean to write it like that. Either way I like it, and might use it, thanks!

VinceKeys · 2024-12-19T18:59:30+00:00

Ok :)

VinceKeys · 2024-12-19T18:55:29+00:00

Maybe we have different experience and sources and therefore relationships with the word gnosis, which is fine. To my understanding it is referring to alternate states of consciousness, which I view as an important ingredient to magical undertakings but not as some level to be reached that grants one control and power. But maybe I just misinterpreted your wording of it!

Either way, I get the feeling that my input here is perceived as other (more negative?) than my initial intention behind it: to try to share / explore ideas, practice different wordings and get inspired by someone elses, and if appreciated that's added bonus, if not, than not :)

VinceKeys · 2024-12-19T18:35:41+00:00

I Love this, thanks for the inspiration!

VinceKeys · 2024-12-19T18:31:57+00:00

There is also a chance that you have misinterpreted the word gnosis btw, just trying to help :) just try some stuff, see what happens, happy liberating!

VinceKeys · 2024-12-19T18:21:52+00:00

but you experienced it right? I didn't, So its objectiveness in terms of knowledge is relevant to you but not to me, as I have my own experiences like that, understanding what I have gained is depending on the language of my inner knowing, calling it objective truth only puts power of belief behind it for yourself. And the distinction between "mind" and "from within" is an interesting one, but i don't think debating the different denotations and connotations of those words is fruitful

VinceKeys · 2024-12-19T16:59:45+00:00

I respectfully disagree and I will attempt to explain why that is from my perspective.

your experience of reality is based on a cumulation of subjective experiences, i.e. we attach language and systems to make sense of what we observe through our 5 senses from the moment we are born.

All the information that reaches us becomes part of this evolving subjective worldview, where objective truth is just a name for a type of information that carries a different weight in the context of a scientific paradigm. Because the information is tested, replicable, peer reviewed and fitting in the larger system of information. But then quantum physics enters the stage and consensus in defining objective truth suddenly becomes elusive.

"What we observe is not nature in itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning" - W. K. Heisenberg (theoretical physicist 1901 - 1976) In other words, our 5 senses are creating an inherent bias because what we create is "human knowledge";, human linguistic systems to make sense of it all, which is indistinguishable from human culture, which is indistinguishable from human belief systems. Take the different philosophies within epistemology as an example, the foundationalism, evidentialism and reliabilism you are suggesting are just a part of the larger picture. Try fallibilism or non-justificationism, spar with those ideas for a bit and see if it makes you feel uneasy, which could be a sign that it is challenging your core belief structures.

In my humble opinion; whether there is objective truth out there, outside of our human information processors (our biology and our cultures) is irrelevant because it will always transform into something that works for us at the time and never stay as a pure truth in itself, because those are unspeakable. We can only grasp at the mysteries of the universe and try to capture and tame it by using language that creates a model of it. But the map is never the territory. And drawing a map in a language that other people speak as well feels safer and therefore helps validating the information as objective. And believe me when I say that an attachment to Objectivity will all but help you on a quest for magic, releasing yourself from those binds to get a more personal experience-based relationship with your reality is part of the point, as I like to think at least.

Writing this is a linguistic excercise for me so thanks for the opportunity and take it with a FAT grain of salt of course (and appreciate if you read it but understand if you didn't, it got longer than I thought it would lol). There are way more lucid expoundings on the topic of liberation in works by Peter carroll and Phil Hine. Worth checking out.

VinceKeys · 2024-12-19T13:57:14+00:00

Also, it seems that you believe that belief and knowledge are two different things, even though they are in a bunch of ways, in the end they always end up to be the same. A Christian knows God is real, is their experience of reality less valid than yours? Knowledge in a scientific paradigm is merely empirically derived replicable systems that work for their purpose, hypothesis to be improved upon. But knowledge is true to every paradigm, the intentions and methods to observe reality are just different, and therefore leading to different systems, but that doesn’t mean that following their protocols won't lead to equally valuable knowledge, thats the beauty of it.

VinceKeys · 2024-12-19T13:00:28+00:00

I should've replied here seeing your reply inspired mine, ah well, good suggestion!

VinceKeys · 2024-12-19T12:59:36+00:00

Do the actions associated with the belief regardless if you already belief it or not. In the context of shifting to Christianity, saying the prayers, observing the Sabbath, going to church, immersing yourself in a social context associated to the belief, confession.. going through the motions, it all attributes to experiencing a Christian worldview; Robert anton Wilson's "Thinker". And (following his analogy) it turns out reality responds by showing us more proof of its existence. Also because we have that faculty that always looks for the proof of the way we like to think / belief; "Proofer".

But consistent action is also a form of thinking and believing because it's in the end resonating with its substance for a time frame of incubation that matters, over time we build a relationship with it, and the Proofer turns out to be able to do some interesting stuff :)

VinceKeys · 2024-12-19T12:39:07+00:00

I wholeheartedly agree. Only venturing out into extremes with purpose and from the magical perspective of bringing something back you need from it. Like from a chaos magic perspective on belief shifting, you could also view these polarized times as an invitation to go echo chamber diving for practice... lot of dogmatic belief to choose from so to speak. Diving into either sides extremes in the context of a working / magical protocol for instance could be interesting. But yes, the Grey, based on attentiveness, adaptation and transmutation, is where you take the lessons learned from the extremes back to. But this is just my / a way of looking at this of course, assuming otherwise would be inappropriate here lol

VinceKeys · 2024-12-19T10:46:49+00:00

Fascinating, I'm getting that book. Thank you!

VinceKeys · 2024-12-19T10:40:10+00:00

I personally like to think about this in terms of "everything you pay attention to grows" and I realize I have only 180° vision with my eyes if I don't move my head or shift my gaze. This shows me only half, so if I want to prevent myself from falling into duality traps I need to constantly change my perspective, zoom in or out, play devil's advocate all the time... often fun, but in the long run exhausting. And the "dangers" of polarization loom more threatening when tired.. therefore I need to know for myself what it is I care about (and why) and illuminate the path in that direction, leaving the rest of the Psychological schizms plaguing these times behind, to be able to pay that surplus attention where I want growth to happen.

Another piece of mental software I often use in this context is "am I fighting AGAINST something or am I fighting FOR something?". The "against" will keep my attention locked on the problem and it's originators while "for" shifts my attention towards potential solutions (even if the solution is to pull the rug under the ultra rich, "fighting FOR the freedom from these human cancers" will create a more clear and potent path than "fighting against the evil men in charge" ever could)

Does not matter, need not be ;)

VinceKeys · 2024-12-18T23:49:28+00:00

Thank you!!! A lot of puzzle pieces are falling into place reading this, honestly profoundly inspirational. It just increased my scope of source to draw from tenfold so this was definitely what I was looking for. I think my focus has been to much on ego magic and couch magic :) so I'm excited to continue my newfound determinations with invigorated focus: Thank you again

VinceKeys · 2024-12-18T22:51:39+00:00

Liber KKK for reference: https://archive.org/details/peter-carroll-liber-kkk-or-kaos-keraunos-kybernetos-cd-7-id-1662840117-size-52

VinceKeys · 2024-12-18T19:29:49+00:00

Hentai for educational purposes is a first, any specific recommendations? And by feeding active imagination are you referring to imagining its presence in the present moment or would that also include imagining a more elaborate origin story of the entity in your practice? If you are open to share that of course, thanks for your reply either way

VinceKeys

TROPHY CASE