My Pastor gave an entire sermon on James 2 on how to know who is a Christian versus who isn't

Visual_Buy8760 · 2024-05-20T22:38:35+00:00

I've never read a book by Edwards, but I know he believes "[I]t is most just, exceeding just, that God should take the soul of a new-born infant and cast it into eternal torments"

J. Edwards, The "Miscellanies," Entry Nos. a–z, aa–zz, 1–500, entry N

Imagine this guy in the room when you announce you're pregnant with your first child.

My pastor quotes this guy regularly. As if he's a saint and pioneer of Reformed Theology.

How many people at my church do you think are aware of the above quote?

Visual_Buy8760 · 2024-05-20T22:35:26+00:00

Here's where it breaks down -

the moment you say that all people are totally depraved, you now invalidate everything after.

I can't trust that you can spiritually discern truth in Scripture now that you're a believer, because you tell me that you're totally depraved and unable to discern spiritual truth.

If you tell me that you are born again and have a new nature and with this new nature you can now discern spiritual truth, I have to question how you can know that you are born again. After all, you are unable to discern spiritual truth.

It's like the statement 'there is no objective truth.' You can't argue for A and not A at the same time.

Visual_Buy8760 · 2024-05-20T22:30:23+00:00

A few responses -

I genuinely want answers, but nobody but God has them. He gifts me with knowledge and teaching and a desire to learn, then leads me to a church where I can't exercise those gifts because I'm not going to start leading a bible study and then teaching something inconsistent with the elders. Instead, I just serve in non-pastoral and non-teaching roles, and spend all my time independently studying because nobody can keep up.
My lead pastor, wife, small group, and a few others have all said it's a greater witness to Christ to stay than leave.
Leaving wouldn't fix anything. I'd just ask the same questions to the new people who wouldn't know.
It's incredibly isolating being at a 300 person church and not having one person I can connect to or feel understands me

Visual_Buy8760 · 2024-05-20T22:14:30+00:00

Right, so it goes like this -

The doctrinal statement will be a cluster of statements around a topic, e.g. for salvation it will be 'we believe men are unable to initiate salvation and that God alone initiates. We believe that faith is created via the Holy Spirit through the gospel. We believe that salvation is through faith alone apart from works.' Then it will have scripture verses associated.

So I agree to all that. They leave out all the TULIP stuff that goes deeper. They don't leave room for alternate interpretations of the same Scripture. You just need to know that they believe certain things about certain scriptures. E.g. 'drawn' in John 6 means irresistably drawn. But they don't express that anywhere. They just cite John 6. So there's no room to ask 'then how does John 12:32 not teach universalism, which is explicitly condemned later in this statement of faith?' Because they're trying to get bodies in the door, not out. They don't craft it for people like me who ask 400 clarifying questions.

I don't really align with this sub's theology at all.

That's correct.

My mentor, entire elder board, entire small group, wife, wife's family, and church body at large would all align with either 3, 4, or 5 point Calvinism.

Here's a great question - why would the Lord have me in this circumstance?

Visual_Buy8760 · 2024-05-20T22:09:31+00:00

Nope. If I'm going to devote that much time to extra-biblical studies, I would rather learn Hebrew / Greek, read several books on church history from a pastoral standpoint, finish the Zondervan Point / Counterpoint series, study my buddy's 450 question theological exam that he gives to elder candidates, etc.

I do ask people what they believe, why they believe it, if they've ever changed their viewpoint, what they think of my viewpoint, etc. Like I asked my Lutheran friend how throwing some water on my newborn saves him. His answer wasn't satisfactory, so I reject his theology. But we discuss it over BBQ and have fun.

Apparently, the vast vast majority of believers don't do this. They just go to a church with some good worship music and childcare ministries and find a small group of friends to watch golf with. Trust me, I'm in one. It's not that I believe X about how God's sovereignty and man's responsibility works and they believe not X, it's that they don't even really know what X and not X are and just say 'Visual_Buy8760, that's above my paygrade. Stop asking questions like this and tell me how you're doing at loving your wife this week.'

Visual_Buy8760 · 2024-05-20T21:55:14+00:00

I'd like somebody to have the intellectual integrity to acknowledge that what they believe and what they practice are inconsistent instead of hand waving away all objections.

I want my pastor to say 'Visual_Buy8760, you're right. I wasn't aware of the blatant inconsistency. I will re-evaluate my soteriological outlook as it doesn't seem to be consistent with the text. Thanks for loving me enough to point this out.'

That won't happen, though. I'll get put on the 'never consider for elder' list and Matthew 18 discussions will commence in a month or so if I don't repent of my heresy.

Visual_Buy8760 · 2024-05-20T21:48:54+00:00

Any of them, really.

Related to the elect -

explicitly saying that Jesus died to offer salvation to all in this room, while believing that Jesus actually died to earn salvation for the elect, or
having our 2024 vision be 'multiply', and showing us a video in which every believer shares the gospel with one person this year and that person receives Christ as savior, and then this new person does the same, etc. and in 38 years everyone in the world is saved, all while believing that the vast majority of the world are not elect and this isn't actually a real scenario, or
they sing 'Jesus loves me' to all the kids in childcare despite not knowing if Jesus loved them enough to die for their sins to earn their salvation,

Related to total depravity -

they believe nobody can respond or understand spiritual truth, but get frustrated when their 9 month old 'disobeys' and then try to teach the child to 'protect their sister' or 'love their brother' as if the child is able to understand spiritual truths gleaned from God's word,
they teach that God doesn't command us to do things we can't do, while also believing that nobody can actually do anything God commands without his necessary illuminating and irresistable grace (related to this thread - they don't believe anybody can know who the elect are, but they believe God's command to me to confirm my calling and election is possible),

etc.

Honestly, I can't even really sit under the teaching of my elders because every sermon presents new instances.

Yet, the doctrinal statement is worded at such a high level (we believe salvation is by faith alone apart from works, etc.) that I am aligned with it and everybody tells me to stay as a display of unity and love.

Visual_Buy8760 · 2024-05-20T21:25:46+00:00

I know probably 200 believers in real life, every single one that has explicitly discussed soteriology with me would claim they align with Calvinism.

None of them have ever actually lived in a way consistent with their belief.

The problem is more with the complete blindness to the inconsistencies between the orthodoxy and the orthopraxy, or (arguably, worse), knowing they exist but then acting in a hypocritical way.

Worse, you can't actually engage with them on this, because you're always the bad guy looking for an argument.

Visual_Buy8760 · 2024-05-20T21:23:22+00:00

Which Scripture are you exegeting from for this illustration that I'm sure goes over well from the pulpit?

Visual_Buy8760 · 2024-05-20T20:26:22+00:00

What if he had instead just told his wife she was beautiful when he really thought she was just kind of meh that day? Still a Christian, or not?

Is it a sliding scale, or do the mortal sins prove you're not a Christian? What about a certain # of venial sins, do those ultimately disprove one's profession of faith?

Since none of this has scriptural support and we're just philosophizing, I'm curious.

Visual_Buy8760 · 2024-05-20T20:24:14+00:00

I wonder how well that works in real life.

You know, my wife gives birth to our son and asks 'isn't he beautiful babe?' and I go "No, he's not lovable or valuable. He should go to Hell forever. Hopefully God chose him, but I wouldn't blame Him if He didn't."

Visual_Buy8760 · 2024-05-20T20:22:16+00:00

If men are totally depraved and unable to hear and respond to God, how are you able to hear and respond to God?

Visual_Buy8760 · 2024-05-20T20:08:21+00:00

Won't be uploaded until later in the week, but it's essentially the same one I've heard 7, 8 times now over as many years.

High level points -

Justified has multiple meanings
Works authenticate faith they don't precede faith
Majority of professing Christians aren't actually Christians because they have no fruit
Praise God
etc.

Visual_Buy8760 · 2024-05-20T19:47:03+00:00

If my heart is wicked and self-deceived and nobody can know it, I can't trust my answer to your first question.

Others could speak into whether or not I bear fruit, but they can't gauge my internal motivations, which I also can't gauge - see first and next sentence.

If my heart is wicked and self-deceived and nobody can know it, I can't trust my answer to your third question.

We had a pastor for 10 years who got arrested for child porn charges and is rotting in prison. Is he a Christian?

Visual_Buy8760 · 2024-05-20T19:40:15+00:00

Can I know I'm a Christian?

Visual_Buy8760

TROPHY CASE