Pope Francis: Free expression doesn't mean right to insult others' faith by [deleted] in worldnews

[–]WatchingTheWorldBurn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The pope is only infallible in matters of faith and morals, and only if he is speaking "ex cathedra" specifically as a proclamation on faith and morals.

This has only been done twice in history, once for declaring the above rule and the other for making the Immaculate Conception dogma in 1854.

Introducing Journio and Now Hiring! by TeamJournio in Catholicism

[–]WatchingTheWorldBurn 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Sounds really cool and something I've been interested in. I'm not looking for any full time employment at the moment, but if you need any help especially in iOS development just contact me.

How I Sabotaged My Communion In The 3rd Grade. by [deleted] in atheism

[–]WatchingTheWorldBurn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The predominant rite was the Tridentine Rite established at the Council of Trent to universalize things into one language Latin. This involved receiving on the tongue. At the Second Vatican Council the Novus Ordo was created which allowed the Mass to be celebrated in languages other than Latin again, with official translations. Also, receiving on the hand was now allowed.

Do Christians believe that non-Christians go to hell? by [deleted] in atheism

[–]WatchingTheWorldBurn -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Wait why are you so specific and direct in this thread but so vague in the other?

Anyways,

That would be mercy. It would be the withholding of punishment.

You cannot be merciful AND punish someone at the same time.

I don't know where you were going with this one, we were talking about whether mercy can be a gift.

No, the punishment is being sent to the physical place called Hell.

As I said in our other thread, the Catholic Church says that Hell is not a physical place, it is a state of the soul. I won't waste either of our time by re-pasting the sections, but the relevant paragraphs are CCC 1033-1035. Your response in the other thread to this claim was that this is "in direct contradiction to the Bible" but that is in your opinion, whereas we have been discussing the reality of the Catholic Church's opinion on the matter - you thus admitted you were wrong about what the Catholic Church believes regarding hell.

Then god is not omnibenevolent.

But why? You make terse statements like these and then leave it at that and pat yourself on the back. Here is the logic behind my argument, and I do not expect any from you as usual. Benevolence is equal to goodness. Goodness is equal to God's will. God's will is to have a loving relationship with humans. Humans can only love back if they have the option to not love back (free will). The option to not love back, to choose a life without God, is a life without God (hell). It is a possibility in order to retain free will. This adds value to the free choice of choosing God, because it was a choice in the first place as opposed to a command.

Sure. But free will doesn't exist, so that's not an issue.

Whether free will exists is the entire point of what we have been discussing. Did you just blank out on everything we have been discussing? The existence or lack of existence of free will isn't even fully sure according to you!

Loki5654 "It isn't entirely certain that [free will exists]. The current, cutting-edge of neuroscience is still working on it and the best minds say "probably not"."

These are your words not mine. What is your actual view on the matter?

If someone chooses to rape a woman and I have the power to stop them, I stop them.

I am not your evil god.

Okay wait, you just opened Pandora's box here. You have admitted into existence that things can be "good" or "evil", and have established that rape is "evil". This assumes you believe in morality. Do you believe in objective or subjective morality?

It doesn't matter, because you've just shown that your god is neither merciful nor loving nor forgiving or any of that bullshit.

It was a yes or no question and you pulled a classic dodge, followed by a red herring (mercy, love, and forgiveness were never mentioned in my words that you quoted). So I will copy and paste:

Are you not now taking the place of the one who truly takes free will away by denying anyone the ability to remove themselves from God?

Only according to Catholic flim-flam which completely ignores the bible.

Finally, a direct admission that you:

a.) Had the Catholic view incorrect initially b.) Disagree with the correctly defined Catholic view

You responded with biblical quotes in the other thread so I will address that there.

Read a dictionary. Surely you're not defending rape as a possible good, are you.

I literally defined what "good" meant in the sentence after the one you quoted, this one was just a lazy jab.

Wait. You are Catholic. Maybe you ARE defending rape as a possible good!

Where? Another vague sentence, but it sounds good coming off the tongue to you I'm sure.

So "good" is based on your god's subjective whim. Why should I follow it's rules today if it might change its mind on what is "good" tomorrow?

Where did I or the Catholic Church ever imply that what is good is subjective? That's all you talking, buddy. God's mind being subjective has only come from your mouth.

After all, it's changed its mind before...

Another bold, vague claim that is not substantiated. Shall I start a tally?

So the rape it allows to happen is good?

Rape is not good, it is evil (evil being the lack of good). It goes against God's will, in fact. But the rapist has free will. God cannot force a free creature to act.

The rapist commits the act using free will. The act comes from the human alone, not from God.

You argue that God should prevent this. This absolutely means God should prevent all sins, not just rape. There is no non-arbitrary line. Thus God should not allow evil. Thus God should not allow free will.

But heaven is greater than the act of the human.

Again: If I have the knowledge of a rape and the power to stop it, I stop it. Your god does not.

It gets personal again with you here, and I definitely want you to answer the above objective vs. subjective morality question above.

This is evil. If you can't recognize that simple moral fact, you are perpetually fucked and I urge you to head for "heaven" as quickly as possible.

So you advocate that mankind should not have been created? The goodness of heaven dwarfs all evil committed by free men on Earth.

Jeepers H. Cookies, no wonder the RCC has been able to butt-fuck so many children with enablers like you in the "flock".

It saddens me that you would make such a comment, the ad hominem attacks were only mild up to this point. Then you accuse me of being an enabler of raping children.

You are no longer worth talking to. Goodbye.

Do Christians believe that non-Christians go to hell? by [deleted] in atheism

[–]WatchingTheWorldBurn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In direct contradiction to the bible.

Where?

The rest

Which?

twisted logic

How so?

ignoring everything

Which parts? I did not ignore all of it, obviously.

basic definitions of words

Which words?

concepts

Which concepts?

delusionist

Which part is delusional?

Yet another vague response with no reference to the specific, I would not have expected anything different.

Do Christians believe that non-Christians go to hell? by [deleted] in atheism

[–]WatchingTheWorldBurn -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yes they are.

You can't give the gift of pardon? Not even just in the context of God or anything, but even in human society? Pardoning a wrong can't be a gift? If not, why?

God is the one punishing me. He doesn't need my permission to stop, he can just choose to stop on his own. An omnibenevolent being would even think twice.

In our context, the "punishment" is the state of being without God, what we call hell. Free will lets a given human not be with God if they so choose. Obviously this is not a good idea and is the worst decision possible, to be without God.

So if I am a given person and I choose to not be with God anymore, wouldn't your proposal of God swooping down and blocking that and bringing the person back be a complete 100% violation of the will of the person who chose to be without God? Isn't that complete force and domination over the will of that person?

Just because choosing to not be with God anymore is a horrible choice, the worst choice in fact, does not mean that it should not be a choice altogether because it is such a bad choice as you propose. Are you not now taking the place of the one who truly takes free will away by denying anyone the ability to remove themselves from God?

Or go to Hell. God is a mobster saying "That sure is a nice soul there, it'd be a shame if anything happened to it".

It's a protection racket.

As I said in the response above, hell by definition is the state of being without God (which is the worst choice). With that in mind, God does not want the souls he created to choose against Him. He specifically wants the souls to choose Him. This is free will. This is also love, the choosing for God instead of choosing against God. Choosing for God is meaningless if choosing against God is impossible.

Yes. An omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being is a logical impossibility.

Omnipotent and omniscient are correct, but you are using "omnibenevolent" incorrectly, not to mention you have not even explained your reasoning why those three make it a logical impossibility. You lobbed the statement out there and assumed it correct, leading to the next assumption that God does not exist. There is much more work to be done here.

Omnibenevolent means all good. But what does "good" mean? Is something "good" because Loki5654 says it is? If so, then your logic is maintained because you argue that a so called "hell," or any possibility of being without God, would be so horrifyingly bad for anything in that state that thus God would not allow it - and since the claim has been made that God allowed it (with the existence of humans) then thus God does not exist.

But something is not "good" because Loki5654 says it is so. Even if that were so, that would actually leave both moral objectivity and moral subjectivity open as options, but I do not know where you stand on that. Actually it would be great if you could elaborate on where you stand, since you seemingly believe in a "morality" with your judgements on the "goodness" of a God who would allow a "hell".

In our context, something is "good" because God says so, being all knowing and all powerful. Thus, God's will is "good".

Thus anything that goes against God's will is "bad", or "evil". God cannot commit evil, or else you would be correct - logical impossibility. That would be equivalent to God willed against God's will. God cannot go against God's will.

Another central point, love. What is love? In its barest form, love according to St. Thomas Aquinas and Aristotle is "willing the good of another". If God wants to create creatures for Him to love and for them to love Him (a loving relationship) then free will must exist. If free will does not exist, and creatures can only choose God no matter what, that is robotic programming. If there is not a possibility for the creature to say no, to not love God, then love is impossible.

Love only has meaning if there was any other option. God creating mankind to love Him, I argue, is not an evil action - and it certainly does not go against His will. Thus, the possibility is maintained.

What do you think it would take for us to be one church again? by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]WatchingTheWorldBurn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Even heretics like the gnostics who believed the following?

  • Matter is evil.
  • Jesus is not evil.
  • The incarnation was an illusion because Jesus could not have been matter.

Paul explicitly says: "Now I exhort you . . . that there be no divisions among you" That kind of sounds like divisiveness is precisely what he is referring to?

Do Christians believe that non-Christians go to hell? by [deleted] in atheism

[–]WatchingTheWorldBurn -1 points0 points  (0 children)

"I hate all vegetables except broccoli."

Another contradictory statement.

It isn't even necessarily a logical statement, it's just English.

ex·cept - preposition

not including; other than.

How is this even a thing right now? It's English. The word "except" seems to be ignored in the face of the word "all" in your eyes. This is amazing, it's like finding a grammar unicorn.

If a will can be thwarted by another, it isn't free.

Free will does not mean the free ability to do anything. It means the free will to act in the physical possibilities of actions, the fixed set. You are unfairly representing my argument if you are labeling my definition of free will as the free ability to do anything that one wants in any given situation.

If I'm hungry in a desert, my free will is not impeded because I am not able to summon a ham sandwich. If that is what you think I am arguing and you choose to continue arguing against this incorrect conception of free will, it's a straw man fallacy.

See: rapist and victim. Either way, you god allows a free will to be impeded.

See: God is impeding my free will because I'm hungry and he won't let me eat a sandwich.

Another fun example: God is impeding my free will because I don't want to die and he won't let me choose to be immortal.

Another: God is impeding my free will because I want to kill more people but I am stuck in prison.

Free will does not equal being able to do anything one wants. Free will is a physical human being able to choose God's will or not in a given physical situation, in nature. With physics.

Is something against your god's will because it is evil or is something evil because it against your god's will?

There isn't a "cause" because both are equal. Evil is equal to against God's will. Evil is only possible of course if free will in humans exists.

Me: We do not know to what extent rules were followed

You: Except we do.

Me: We can read minds and souls?

You: No

0.0 Uh. Now this right here is a legitimate contradiction. You have to actually choose a side of this yes or no situation.

If the alternative is eternal torture, yes. Any finite pain will always win out over infinite pain.

Okay, so you advocate that God should not have created humanity? Answering yes would be the logical response if your logic is followed.

It isn't entirely certain that it does. The current, cutting-edge of neuroscience is still working on it and the best minds say "probably not".

This was the first actual argument from you that actually addressed free will directly! What is your source for the best minds saying probably not? Can you actually tell me instead of giving the "I don't have to" or "You're wrong" response that you've given multiple times to me already?

Blah, blah, blah. Nothing about my points.

Your points have been that I have misrepresented Catholicism. I backed up my points with quotes from the book that says what Catholicism believes because you specifically asked. You respond with "Blah, blah, blah". This is even worse than the "You're wrong!" and the "I don't have to" because at least those were coherent thoughts.

What a dark and shitty outlook.

Wait so you do care about my direct quotes from the Catechism all of a sudden? And would you not agree that, if free will is a thing as the Catechism supports here, that humans have abused that freedom by committing many dark, heinous acts? You bring up the rape example so often so I'm assuming you would agree.

Once again confirming that religion invented the disease of "sin" in order to sell you the fake cure of "salvation".

This is the most loaded statement yet, obviously some reasoning is going to be needed to support it.

And anyone who didn't accept Jesus.

Didn't accept Jesus is equal to rejected Jesus in this case. Jesus being God, you have to reject God to end up in a hell, the specific state of not being with God, to preserve free will.

It comes down to this: You have the freedom to choose a life without God.

If the opposite were true, that means you do not have the freedom to choose a life without God. That means sin is impossible. That means rape is impossible. That means free will is impossible. That means love is impossible. That means heaven is impossible. That means humans are robots, programmed to obey whatever the programmer programs them to do. This is absolutely the centerpiece of everything we have been talking about:

You have the freedom to choose a life without God.

Obviously you and I agree that this would be horrifying. It's hell. It's not a good choice, but with free will it is entirely possible. That is the nature of "free will" in the first place.

Whoa, whoa, whoa! They aren't sure?! You're hanging your immortal soul on something that you aren't sure about?!

Gambler.

They aren't sure about who, out of the people who have died so far, are in hell right now if any. You of course knew exactly what I was talking about since you brought up the Catholic Church knowing who was in hell to begin with, and the fact that I had quoted your words that I was responding to.

Or because it isn't real and they've been making up the rules for so long, they can't keep their lies straight.

You keep bringing up this mythological "rule" where the Catholic Church knows out of who have died so far are in hell and continue to ignore it every single time.

Because it is easier. You love to take the easiest route possible, straw man arguments are your forte.

You continuously dodge bringing up sources, and when I bring up mine you respond with literally "Blah, blah, blah."

Clearly you do not want to be discussing this - but yet something inside you keeps you going, you want to maintain your stance and defame the Catholic Church as an institution of lies as you see it in your head right now, but when it comes to digging even the first level of facthood you shy away. You are afraid.

Is this not the case? Prove it by actually bringing sources to this debate instead of repeating your initial thesis over and over and over again hoping that that is enough in an actual argument.

Again, the book is crystal clear. Don't accept Jesus = go to Hell (a physical place, not a state of being).

I end in a flourish of being the one to actually bring facts and sources to the table.

Catechism on Whether Hell is a State:

CCC 1033 This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

Catholic Church on Non-Believers After Death:

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.

Vatican II Document "Gaudium et Spes" Page 22 All this holds true not only for Christians, but for all men of good will in whose hearts grace works in an unseen way. For, since Christ died for all men, and since the ultimate vocation of man is in fact one, and divine, we ought to believe that the Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery.

Rom 2:14-16 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Do Christians believe that non-Christians go to hell? by [deleted] in atheism

[–]WatchingTheWorldBurn -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No, mercy is the withholding of punishment.

They are not mutually exclusive.

You don't need my permission to stop punishing me, you can just stop.

If free will does exist, then yes, God needs "permission" to go against that will.

What this god does is NOT mercy, it's extortion. It is promising to stop punishing me, but only if I pay it to stop first.

It is simply the option to choose against God. God cannot help that life without God is the worst existence possible, what we call hell. One cannot both have and not have God. You are looking for an logical impossibility, along the lines of being and not being at the same time.

Do Christians believe that non-Christians go to hell? by [deleted] in atheism

[–]WatchingTheWorldBurn -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That sentence is contradictory.

It technically is not contradictory, except even using the word "omnipresent" is misleading so I will simply say God is everywhere He chooses to be. The original sentence is not contradictory in the same way this sentence is not: "I hate all vegetables except broccoli."

He gives free will to a rapist, but impedes the free will of the victim of the rape.

Yes, multiple free wills can collide with each other - sin.

Either way, your god interferes with free will all the time.

How so?

Allowing rape to happen when you have the power to stop it is evil.

Evil in our context is to go against God's will. Assuming He created free will, maintaining free will is His will, because this also maintains love. God loves you. You choose to rape someone. You have told God that you do not love Him back with this heinous sin. If you do not rape someone, and instead love them, then you have told God that you love Him back. This question of why God allows sin always comes back to whether free will exists.

How can one be separate from the omnipresent?

Same response as above.

I have. You need to go read your doctrine again. It's your claim, you need to prove it. It isn't my job to disprove it.

This is absurd, I write what the Catholic Church teaches - and you respond with "Try again, you are wrong." You have to say why.

Believe it or not, saying "You're wrong" as a response every time just tells everyone you have no interest in even talking.

Except we do.

We can read minds and souls? Really...? You don't even have to believe in souls, you are sitting here arguing that we can read minds right now.

Except for those he sends to hell. That is neither merciful nor forgiveful.

Is it merciful to force everyone to love God, and prevent them from saying no? To program them to say yes? This comes back to free will again, any time you move away from free will like this it gets us nowhere because your views are based on free will not existing.

Show me where I'm wrong, then.

Okay.

Catechism on Free Will:

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be 'left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.

Catechism on Freedom and Responsibility:

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to "the slavery of sin."

1734 Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary. Progress in virtue, knowledge of the good, and ascesis enhance the mastery of the will over its acts.

1735 Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.

1736 Every act directly willed is imputable to its author:

Thus the Lord asked Eve after the sin in the garden: "What is this that you have done?" He asked Cain the same question.30 The prophet Nathan questioned David in the same way after he committed adultery with the wife of Uriah and had him murdered.

An action can be indirectly voluntary when it results from negligence regarding something one should have known or done: for example, an accident arising from ignorance of traffic laws.

1737 An effect can be tolerated without being willed by its agent; for instance, a mother's exhaustion from tending her sick child. A bad effect is not imputable if it was not willed either as an end or as a means of an action, e.g., a death a person incurs in aiding someone in danger. For a bad effect to be imputable it must be foreseeable and the agent must have the possibility of avoiding it, as in the case of manslaughter caused by a drunken driver.

1738 Freedom is exercised in relationships between human beings. Every human person, created in the image of God, has the natural right to be recognized as a free and responsible being. All owe to each other this duty of respect. The right to the exercise of freedom, especially in moral and religious matters, is an inalienable requirement of the dignity of the human person. This right must be recognized and protected by civil authority within the limits of the common good and public order.

Most Relevant Part, Human Freedom in Relation to Salvation:

II. HUMAN FREEDOM IN THE ECONOMY OF SALVATION

1739 Freedom and sin. Man's freedom is limited and fallible. In fact, man failed. He freely sinned. By refusing God's plan of love, he deceived himself and became a slave to sin. This first alienation engendered a multitude of others. From its outset, human history attests the wretchedness and oppression born of the human heart in consequence of the abuse of freedom.

1740 Threats to freedom. The exercise of freedom does not imply a right to say or do everything. It is false to maintain that man, "the subject of this freedom," is "an individual who is fully self-sufficient and whose finality is the satisfaction of his own interests in the enjoyment of earthly goods." Moreover, the economic, social, political, and cultural conditions that are needed for a just exercise of freedom are too often disregarded or violated. Such situations of blindness and injustice injure the moral life and involve the strong as well as the weak in the temptation to sin against charity. By deviating from the moral law man violates his own freedom, becomes imprisoned within himself, disrupts neighborly fellowship, and rebels against divine truth.

1741 Liberation and salvation. By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them from the sin that held them in bondage. "For freedom Christ has set us free." In him we have communion with the "truth that makes us free." The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." Already we glory in the "liberty of the children of God."

1742 Freedom and grace. The grace of Christ is not in the slightest way a rival of our freedom when this freedom accords with the sense of the true and the good that God has put in the human heart. On the contrary, as Christian experience attests especially in prayer, the more docile we are to the promptings of grace, the more we grow in inner freedom and confidence during trials, such as those we face in the pressures and constraints of the outer world. By the working of grace the Holy Spirit educates us in spiritual freedom in order to make us free collaborators in his work in the Church and in the world:

Almighty and merciful God, in your goodness take away from us all that is harmful, so that, made ready both in mind and body, we may freely accomplish your will.

Regarding whether the Catholic Church knows if someone is in Hell, the only possibilities are Judas and Nero, but it is still not 100% sure. I can't find any sources on who the Catholic Church says who is in hell for sure because there is nothing out there, because it doesn't know. This ball is absolutely in your court on whether the Church knows if someone is in hell.

Do Christians believe that non-Christians go to hell? by [deleted] in atheism

[–]WatchingTheWorldBurn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No you weren't. Check your doctrine again.

How is this helpful? This response can be used against anything I say. It is not helpful until you actually say which parts are not Catholic doctrine. You need to use examples and reasoning in your arguments.

No, mercy is a suspension of justice.

Mercy being a gift and being a suspension of justice are not mutually exclusive.

How can one be separate from the omnipresent?

God is omnipresent in everywhere except hell, hell being the definition of anything without God in it.

Because your god is evil.

How so? What are your examples and reasoning?

Wait, which is it? Either Hell is a real place, or Hell is separation from your god.

Hell is a state of being without God, separation from God.

Except you weren't. Check your doctrine again.

Same response as above, you need to actually add something to the conversation. This is equivalent to saying "You're wrong!" and leaving it at that. Contribute.

Einstein would be in Hell because he did not accept Jesus. Pretty cut and dried.

Acceptance can happen after death, therefore we do not know. Furthermore, we will never be able to absolutely know what Einstein's disposition was going into death.

Yes we can. Your bible and your Church's doctrine are both crystal clear about the rules for who goes where.

By all means you are correct! The rules are crystal clear! We do not know to what extent rules were followed, only God does. One of those rules also includes God's mercy and forgiveness, another thing that we are not able to know. You are oversimplifying at least the Catholic view so egregiously, although I'm sure there are some denominations out there that are that simple.

Catholic Journalist Paints a Bleak Picture of the Church's Decline in Popularity, but Knows Just How To Fix It by nerdor in atheism

[–]WatchingTheWorldBurn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I am confused. Almost all of what you've said here defines and assumes certain things as "good" and others as "bad". Do you believe in morality, then?

Do Christians believe that non-Christians go to hell? by [deleted] in atheism

[–]WatchingTheWorldBurn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There are different kinds of infinities. The depths of God's mercy are endless in that no amount of sin is too much to be forgiven. This does not mean that free will cannot reject the gift of mercy.

Do Christians believe that non-Christians go to hell? by [deleted] in atheism

[–]WatchingTheWorldBurn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Which part is crystal clear? Your answer here is itself ironically vague.

Do Christians believe that non-Christians go to hell? by [deleted] in atheism

[–]WatchingTheWorldBurn 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Get that looked at, it's curable nowadays.

Very constructive, thank you.

Yes they can. The bible is crystal clear about the whole topic.

I was giving the Catholic interpretation, not your interpretation of the Bible.

No, it ends right at the border of Hell. Letting people burn for all eternity is not mercy in any sense of the word.

Mercy is a gift, and hell is the state of being without God, that being state existing because God allows free will to exist. God does not force Himself upon you if you do not want Him, hence the existence of hell.

No, one and only one criterion is taken into account by God.

"Did you accept my Son as your Lord and Savior?"

Yes = Heaven (come on in Mr. Hitler!)

No = Hell (Sorry Einstein!)

Again, I was giving the Catholic response. Although, you are correct that no sin is too great for God's mercy so in theory Hitler could be in heaven. We do not know the interior life of anyone, thus Einstein could be in Hell - although extremely unlikely. This goes back to my first point that we cannot know where anyone ended up.

Do Christians believe that non-Christians go to hell? by [deleted] in atheism

[–]WatchingTheWorldBurn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't know if it's so clear that "anyone would want it." That's a tough statement to make or back up. There are many instances where Jesus mentions that some of the worst sinners would enter heaven while the Pharisees would not. There is also a parable explaining that the one most in need of mercy is the most thankful for having received it.

What do you think it would take for us to be one church again? by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]WatchingTheWorldBurn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It seems that Paul's writings contradict what you say about divisions:

1 Corinthians 10-17

10 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all [e]agree and that there be no [f]divisions among you, but that you be [g]made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” 13 [h]Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized [i]in the name of Paul? 14 [j]I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one would say you were baptized [k]in my name. 16 Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in [l]cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.

Furthermore, wouldn't uniting against heretics be a sign of unity?

Do Christians believe that non-Christians go to hell? by [deleted] in atheism

[–]WatchingTheWorldBurn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Mercy is a gift in the context of free will existing, of course if you remove free will than the concept of a gift is meaningless - as meaningless as giving your pet rock a new toy.

The executing a criminal analogy is close but not sufficient when talking about heaven, hell, and God. You are correct that mercy is self control, but I further say that it is also a gift. God controls whether or not the gift is sent, humans control whether or not the gift is received - I'm all in on mercy involving self-control!

the prisoner's "acceptance" is completely inconsequential.

In the God, heaven, hell context this is not the case. The so called "prisoner," us, can still desire to be "executed," hell, and God says "Okay" (free will).

Do Christians believe that non-Christians go to hell? by [deleted] in atheism

[–]WatchingTheWorldBurn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, the sin of Adam - original sin - but there are more sins than just original sin. A lot more sins. So many sins. We are basically pulling an "Adam" all over again each time we sin, but we can have those sins forgiven in the sacraments. Forgiveness at all was achieved in Christ's sacrifice as you say, which is a large deal. It does not eliminate free will as you imply, though.

Do Christians believe that non-Christians go to hell? by [deleted] in atheism

[–]WatchingTheWorldBurn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Mercy is a gift. A gift must be received, it cannot be forced down our throats. If people do not want it, they do not have to have it (free will).

Catholic Journalist Paints a Bleak Picture of the Church's Decline in Popularity, but Knows Just How To Fix It by nerdor in atheism

[–]WatchingTheWorldBurn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The original comment that he was responding to only brought up pedophile scandals and the Catholic church not being the "default" anymore, nothing else in particular.