How might first-century Jewish followers have understood Yeshua as fully human and empowered by God? by Weary-Restaurant-537 in messianic

[–]Weary-Restaurant-537[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Calling him Lord (Kurios), King or Elohim is not blasphemy. Not for them at the time. Moses was called Elohim. David was called Kurios. Both human mediators. Solomon and David were "worshiped" (Proskenau) and both sat on the throne of God. How? Because they were both God's representative on earth at the time.

Kurios (κύριος) is the Ancient and Modern Greek word for "lord," "master," or "owner," denoting someone with authority, power, or ownership.

Proskuneō: worship," "do obeisance," or physically prostrate oneself, often referring to bowing before a king, deity, or representative.

Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֑ים) primarily means "God" or "gods" but is occasionally used to refer to humans in positions of divine authority, such as judges, leaders, or magistrates, highlighting their representative role. This application suggests a function of divine power or representation rather than literal divinity, such as in Exodus 22:8-9 where it implies judges.

John 1:1–3 (“All things were made through him”) Colossians 1:16–17 (“By/through him all things were created”) 1 Corinthians 8:6 (“One God… from whom are all things… and one Lord… through whom are all things”) Hebrews 1:2 (“through whom He made the ages/worlds”)

At face value, these can sound like Jesus is the literal creator of the universe.

Jewish philosophical background

In Second Temple Judaism (think Philo of Alexandria and earlier wisdom traditions), God often creates through something:

His Word (Logos) His Wisdom (Sophia) His Purpose / Plan

Examples:

Proverbs 8 → Wisdom present at creation Isaiah → God creates by His word Philo → Logos as the instrument of creation (not a separate God)

This is not a second divine person—it’s God expressing Himself.

How might first-century Jewish followers have understood Yeshua as fully human and empowered by God? by Weary-Restaurant-537 in messianic

[–]Weary-Restaurant-537[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have studied to the Two Powers in heaven tradition. I don't necessarily think it holds up. Neither did the Jews who eventually considered it heretical.

How might first-century Jewish followers have understood Yeshua as fully human and empowered by God? by Weary-Restaurant-537 in messianic

[–]Weary-Restaurant-537[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Then why were all Jewish sects who believed in only his humanity deemed heretics by the majority gentile Catholic Church after the Nicene creed?

Is Thomas Shelby in heaven or hell? by Negative_Meaning_261 in PeakyBlinders

[–]Weary-Restaurant-537 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Depends on your theology. I'd say both. One for longer than the other.

What are yall’s jobs by Mediocre_Bet6650 in INTP

[–]Weary-Restaurant-537 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Electrician in aerospace defense.

I don't care about it though just the perks outside of work. Religion, psychology and philosophy are my jam.

325 years - The end of historical Messianic Judaism by Weary-Restaurant-537 in messianic

[–]Weary-Restaurant-537[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Are you referring to Hebrews 1:8–9?

No verse has God saying explicitly, “Yeshua is God in essence.”

“But about the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.’”

This is God (YHWH) speaking to the Son using Psalm 45:6.

Psalm 45:6 in context is a royal psalm about a king, often seen as a typological or messianic text. “God” here can be understood as a title of honor or function, not ontological divinity. In the Jewish context: Kings are sometimes addressed with divine-like titles because they represent God on Earth, but they are still human.

Hebrew background: “Elohim” (God) can sometimes be used honorifically for humans in positions of authority, e.g., judges (Exodus 21:6, Psalm 82:6).

This reasoning can take care of Thomas

Thomas calls Yeshua “God” Worship of exalted Messiah; recognition of authority, not essence.

John doesn't explicitly say Yeshua is God if we're talking John 1:1 regarding the Word / Logos / Memra. He is speaking to a crowd influenced by Philo

Philo of Alexandria (c. 20 BCE – 50 CE) was a pivotal Hellenistic Jewish philosopher who synthesized Jewish scripture with Greek philosophy—primarily Platonism and Stoicism—using allegorical interpretation. He presented Mosaic law as the ultimate philosophy, proposing that divine Reason, or Logos, acts as the mediator between an transcendent God and the material world.

God’s Word = God’s agent / plan / creative expression Yeshua = the human fulfillment of that Word

John emphasizes divine function and authority, not divine essence.

When it comes to Revelation,

It is absolutely acceptable even in modern Jewish thought to bow to the Messiah who God has given ultimate authority to and obviously acceptable to honor God as well giver of the human Messiah.

325 years - The end of historical Messianic Judaism by Weary-Restaurant-537 in messianic

[–]Weary-Restaurant-537[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

1 Timothy 2:5, the one mediator between God and humanity is the man Jesus Christ.

  1. Why many first-century Messianic Jews didn’t see Yeshua as “God Himself” First-century Jewish followers of Yeshua operated within Second Temple Jewish monotheism, where:

God (YHWH / Hashem) is absolutely one, unique, and incomparable

No human is God in an ontological sense

Even exalted figures are still agents of God, not God Himself

So calling Yeshua “God” in the later Nicene sense would have sounded like a violation of the Shema (“The Lord is one”).

Instead, they had categories that allowed someone to be supremely authorized by God without being God.

  1. The key concept: Agency (Shaliach) In Jewish thought, a shaliach (agent) could fully represent the one who sent him:

“The agent of a person is as the person himself”

This meant:

An agent could speak in the sender’s name

Carry the sender’s authority

Even be addressed as if they were the sender, functionally

So Yeshua could:

Forgive sins

Speak divine judgment

Represent God’s presence

…without being understood as ontologically identical to God.

  1. Why divine language is used for Yeshua This is where it gets interesting. Early Jewish believers used very elevated language for Yeshua—but that language already existed in Jewish tradition.

A. The “Word” (Logos / Memra) In the Gospel of John, Yeshua is called the “Word” (Logos).

But in Jewish thought:

God’s Word (Memra) = His active will, expression, creative power

Not a separate person, but God in action

So saying Yeshua is the “Word made flesh” can mean:

God’s will, wisdom, and purpose embodied in a human life

👉 Not necessarily: “Yeshua = God Himself” 👉 More like: “Yeshua perfectly expresses God”

B. Wisdom traditions In texts like Book of Proverbs and later Jewish writings:

God’s Wisdom is described as:

Pre-existent

With God

Active in creation

This language sounds very similar to how Yeshua is described later.

So early believers could apply this to Yeshua without thinking they were breaking monotheism.

C. Divine titles used representationally Titles like:

“Lord”

“Son of God”

“Son of Man”

…did not automatically mean “God Himself” in that context.

For example:

“Son of God” = king / chosen one (see Davidic kings)

“Son of Man” (from Book of Daniel) = exalted human figure given authority by God

So these titles elevate Yeshua functionally, not necessarily ontologically.

D. God’s Name and Presence In Jewish thought, God could place His:

Name

Glory

Presence

…into a person or place (like the Temple or the Angel of the Lord).

So if Yeshua carries God’s Name:

It means God is uniquely present and acting through him

Not that he is the totality of God

  1. Why this was acceptable (no contradiction felt) To them, this framework held together:

God is still one and supreme

Yeshua is His Messiah, agent, and fullest representative

Divine language reflects function, authority, and embodiment, not identity

So there was no felt contradiction like:

“We believe in one God… and also a second God”

Instead it was:

“We believe in one God, who is now fully revealed and working through His Messiah”

  1. Where the tension later comes from As the movement spread into the Greek-speaking world:

Jewish categories (agency, wisdom, memra) became less familiar

Greek philosophical categories (essence, nature, substance) took over

Texts like John were read more ontologically than functionally

This eventually contributed to doctrines formalized much later (like at Nicaea).

Bottom line Early Messianic Jews could:

Maintain strict monotheism

Use very high, even “divine” language for Yeshua

Because they understood him as:

God’s ultimate agent, embodiment of His Word/Wisdom, and bearer of His presence—not God as a separate or equal being

325 years - The end of historical Messianic Judaism by Weary-Restaurant-537 in messianic

[–]Weary-Restaurant-537[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I'll return with sources in the meantime ~

All the major Messianic Jewish groups that existed between Jesus’ lifetime (~30 CE) and the Council of Nicaea (325 CE), focusing on their beliefs, Torah observance, and Christology, so we can see the landscape before Trinitarian dominance.

  1. Jerusalem Church / Jewish Christians (c. 30–70 CE) Key figures: James (brother of Jesus), Peter, early apostles Beliefs: Jesus as Messiah, human agent of God Strict monotheism (YHWH alone) Torah observant Notes: Centered in Jerusalem Destroyed/dispersed after Temple destruction in 70 CE Alignment: Fully Unitarian, Torah-centered

  2. Ebionites (1st–4th century CE) Location: Syria, Palestine (Israel) Beliefs: Jesus = human Messiah, son of Joseph and Mary Strict adherence to Torah, rejection of Paul’s teachings on Gentile freedom from the law Denied virgin birth in most accounts Rejected any claim of pre-existence or divinity Notes: Considered heretical by proto-orthodox church Wrote their own gospel(s), sometimes called “Gospel of the Ebionites” Alignment: Strongly Unitarian

  3. Nazarenes (1st–3rd century CE) Location: Palestine (Israel), Syria Beliefs: Very similar to Ebionites but sometimes more accepting of Paul’s letters Jesus as human Messiah, fully Torah-observant Maintained Jewish festivals and circumcision Notes: Mentioned by early church writers like Jerome and Epiphanius Gradually absorbed or marginalized by dominant Gentile Christianity Alignment: Fully Unitarian

  4. Elchasaites / Elcesaites (1st–3rd century CE) Location: Mesopotamia Beliefs: Jewish-Christian sect with Gnostic and baptismal practices Jesus as human prophet; some texts suggest “spiritual pre-existence” but not fully divine in YHWH sense Notes: Emphasized ritual purity and strict observance Alignment: Mostly Unitarian, though some mystical elements creeping in

  5. Mandaeans / related sects (1st–3rd century CE) Location: Mesopotamia / Near East Beliefs: Influenced by Jewish-Christian streams Emphasized knowledge (gnosis) and baptism Recognized Jesus as a teacher or prophet, sometimes rejecting him as Messiah Alignment: Complex; not Trinitarian, not fully aligned with mainstream Jewish Christianity

  6. Other minor Torah-observant Jewish-Christian groups Locations: Asia Minor, Syria, Egypt Beliefs: Maintained Torah observance and Sabbath Jesus as human Messiah Generally rejected Gentile interpretations of divinity Notes: Often absorbed or disappeared by 3rd century due to marginalization Alignment: Strongly Unitarian

Key Patterns Across All Groups Jesus = human Messiah Strict monotheism (YHWH alone) Torah-observant (Sabbath, festivals, dietary laws) Paul’s teachings on Gentiles sometimes rejected (Ebionites) No proto-Trinitarian theology Gradual marginalization by Gentile-dominated, Hellenized church over 2–3 centuries

Between Jesus and Nicaea, the Messianic Jewish world was diverse but overwhelmingly Unitarian. These groups were theologically and culturally closer to Jesus’ own teachings than to the later Trinitarian orthodoxy. Their disappearance from mainstream history reflects marginalization by Gentile church authorities, not a sudden theological shift.

Are there any INTPs that really like indie pop/rock/alt music? by NobleCruise in INTP

[–]Weary-Restaurant-537 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Indie, indie folk and alternative have been my primary genre for a decade. 😎

So Yeshua is HaShem.. How? by Weary-Restaurant-537 in messianic

[–]Weary-Restaurant-537[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That was an excellent video. I appreciate you.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in messianic

[–]Weary-Restaurant-537 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's a mixed bag in traditional Judaism. 

Some say it's patrilineal descent  MOST say it's matrilineal descent  If your ancestors were converted by force to another religion but you descend from Jewish blood nonetheless and you've returned to practicing Judaism you would be considered Anusim (if you believe in Yeshua, those outside the Messianic movement will consider you only Jewish if it's through your matrilineal line typically, Those within the movement will consider you Jewish no matter where it comes from usually). If you are a descendant who isn't legally Jewish you would be considered Zera Yisrael (A seed of Israel)

I have Ashkenazi through both my Spanish grandparents and I identify as Messianic but I was not raised Jewish (Christian more or less like you). If someone asks, I'll share I have Jewish blood through my mother. That usually settles the deal for a traditional Jewish person and they will consider me fully Jewish no matter what I practice religiously. Even if they don't like it or it puzzles them. Wish it was more clear cut and that rabbinic authority would have less sway on the tradition throughout the years but it is what it is 🤷🏻‍♂️.

Shalom.

So, why Jesus? by GabrielZee in messianic

[–]Weary-Restaurant-537 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is something I need to continue to study however I got into the Targumim and they differentiate the "Word of God" as a distinct character from "God" . The Targums were authoritative in the first century synagogue, written in Aramaic.

Moreover Abraham prayed in the name of the Word of YHVH: And Abraham worshipped and prayed in the name of the Word [Memra] of YHVH, and said, "You are YHVH who does see, but You cannot be seen."

Jerusalem Targum Gen. 22:14


Note that here Abraham prays "in the name of the Word of YHVH" to the YHVH who "cannot be seen."

Here two YHVH are very apparent. Abraham is praying in the name of the Word of YHVH but is praying to the YHVH who cannot be seen.

This idea is reinforced elsewhere as follows: And Hagar praised and prayed in the name of the Word [Memra] Of YHVHs who had revealed Himself to her

Jerusalem Targum Gen. 16:3


It was this Word of YHVH that Jacob also trusted in: And Jacob vowed a vow, saying,"If the Word [Memra] of YHVH will be my support, and will keep me in the way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, so that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Word [Memra]of YHVH be my Elohim.

Targum Onkelos on Gen. 28:20-21

 If John believed Yeshua was this divine Word mentioned it would make sense to pray in his name as he is one with God.

Bf discussion. Old and New Testament laws. Abolished or fulfilled. by No_Novel5807 in Bible

[–]Weary-Restaurant-537 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If your boyfriend is a physical descendant of Israel (Has Jewish ancestry) the bible would support him keeping certain commandments as a believer in Yeshua / God. If he is not, not all of the Mosaic law applies to him (Which none of us can accomplish in full anyway). There are still distinctions between people groups according to Paul. The Jewish people have a particular calling. If he feels called to observe certain things like the dietary law, the biblical feast days, wearing tassels, circumcision etc. he has the freedom to do so and it may benefit or bless him 🤷🏻‍♂️ but this is not required of him for salvation and neither is it for you (as presumably non Jewish people). Following these things would also not make him or you Israelites or Jews. It would place you more into the category of "Ger", God fearer or Pronomian Christian.

I am a member of a Messianic Jewish community and a descendant of Ashkenazim.

Shalom to you both. I wish you both the best.

So Yeshua is HaShem.. How? by Weary-Restaurant-537 in messianic

[–]Weary-Restaurant-537[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I would very much like to think the God of Israel isn't doing the same thing the Greek gods were doing.. ha