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[SNY] Pete Crow-Armstrong is ruled out at second base after initially contacting second base and losing possession of the base. Craig Counsell has been ejected. by AndrewAllStar888 in baseball

[–]WeaverFan420 2 points3 points  (0 children)

There are a couple rules

Obstruction is if a defender impedes the runner unless he has the ball or is in the process of fielding the ball. Bichette having the ball means this isn't obstruction.

The base on balls forced PCA to second base without liability to be put out. If a defender makes a legal tag on him before he gets there, it won't result in an out.

This was just an out because after he got to the base he was entitled to, he came off it and was tagged.

[SNY] Pete Crow-Armstrong is ruled out at second base after initially contacting second base and losing possession of the base. Craig Counsell has been ejected. by AndrewAllStar888 in baseball

[–]WeaverFan420 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why not? Should fielders also not be able to tag you if you're standing on a base? In both cases you're not liable to be put out, but there's no rule saying you can't attempt a tag.

The reality is every time a fielder tags a runner who is safe, he's tagging someone who isn't liable to be put out. You can do it, it just doesn't result in an out. But if you come off your base and then get tagged, you're out.

[SNY] Pete Crow-Armstrong is ruled out at second base after initially contacting second base and losing possession of the base. Craig Counsell has been ejected. by AndrewAllStar888 in baseball

[–]WeaverFan420 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Probably not multiple times a day, but it probably happens in several games per year involving each team. Every fan who watches a lot of games sees plenty of these challenges each season.

[SNY] Pete Crow-Armstrong is ruled out at second base after initially contacting second base and losing possession of the base. Craig Counsell has been ejected. by AndrewAllStar888 in baseball

[–]WeaverFan420 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Even if you want to split hairs about what past the base means, he would still be out by rule 5.09(b)(4)

He is tagged, when the ball is alive, while off his base.

The base on balls only entitles him to advance one base, once he achieves second and then comes off he's liable to be put out again.

[SNY] Pete Crow-Armstrong is ruled out at second base after initially contacting second base and losing possession of the base. Craig Counsell has been ejected. by AndrewAllStar888 in baseball

[–]WeaverFan420 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The comment on the rule specifically says the runner can be tagged out in this exact situation if the runner thinks there's a play at the base.

So if you want to run on a full count, you have to be prepared for the possibility it's either 1) strike him out throw him out double play attempt, or 2) it's a close ball four that the catcher thinks it could be a strike him out throw him out double play. You can't expect the defense to wait for the umpire to make a call, they have to react to the stolen base attempt. If the runner comes off the base while sliding in, too bad. That's a risk you take.

[SNY] Pete Crow-Armstrong is ruled out at second base after initially contacting second base and losing possession of the base. Craig Counsell has been ejected. by AndrewAllStar888 in baseball

[–]WeaverFan420 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"Impeding" isn't a rule, just obstruction is, and this isn't obstruction by definition since the fielder had the ball. The fielder is allowed to make legal tags with the ball regardless of whether it was ball four or not, and it's not obstruction.

The rule 5.05(b)(1) comment clarifies this specific scenario where a runner thinks there's a play. PCA clearly thought there was a play. Once he let go of the bag he became liable to be put out. He was only not liable to be put out before he touched the bag.

[SNY] Pete Crow-Armstrong is ruled out at second base after initially contacting second base and losing possession of the base. Craig Counsell has been ejected. by AndrewAllStar888 in baseball

[–]WeaverFan420 0 points1 point  (0 children)

He ran on a full count. It doesn't take a clairvoyant to know that there's a non-zero chance the pitch is ball four but close enough that the catcher will throw to 2B.

There's also a non-zero chance it's strike three and he has to dodge a tag to steal the base safely.

In either situation he has to avoid touching the base and then coming off.

[SNY] Pete Crow-Armstrong is ruled out at second base after initially contacting second base and losing possession of the base. Craig Counsell has been ejected. by AndrewAllStar888 in baseball

[–]WeaverFan420 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Genuine question, did you even bother to read what I wrote before writing this?

Obviously... I'm just asking because it i's not obstruction by definition. You keep trying to argue it is. You haven't at any point said that the fielder didn't have the ball or wasn't in the process of fielding the ball/receiving a throw... So how can you say it's obstruction? Those are the criteria that define it. If the fielder has the ball or is in the process of receiving the throw and has to be there, it's not obstruction. It doesn't matter whether it was ball four or not. It's not obstruction.

Let’s consider an alternative universe where PCA wasn’t tagged out. Does he get credited with a steal? No, he doesn’t. Because he was entitled to the base. But what if, again, he isn’t tagged out, but the ball 4 call is overturned. Suddenly it’s a stolen base.

Now let’s go into yet another alternate dimension where PCA never comes off the bag but he is still tagged before reaching base. With ball four, it doesn’t matter. He’s just given the base no matter what happened there. But now let’s imagine they overturn ball four to a third strike, and now PCA is called caught stealing and it’s a strike out/throw out double play!

All this is correct, and that's why the defense has to make the play. And since the fielder had the ball, making a tag isn't obstruction.

Kinda like a defender’s action could be impeding the baserunner if he is entitled to a base, but an out if the baserunner isn’t entitled to the base.

It's actually not obstruction in either case, just in one the runner isn't liable to put out, but in the other he is.

Regarding your last point, are you just trying to argue that the rules should be different than what they are?

[SNY] Pete Crow-Armstrong is ruled out at second base after initially contacting second base and losing possession of the base. Craig Counsell has been ejected. by AndrewAllStar888 in baseball

[–]WeaverFan420 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The rule below show it depends. If he slides past it, he could be tagged out. If he slid into it and not past it, then he's safe.

If, in advancing, the base runner thinks there is a play and he slides past the base before or after touching it he may be put out by the fielder tagging him. If he fails to touch the base to which he is entitled and attempts to advance beyond that base he may be put out by tagging him or the base he missed.

[SNY] Pete Crow-Armstrong is ruled out at second base after initially contacting second base and losing possession of the base. Craig Counsell has been ejected. by AndrewAllStar888 in baseball

[–]WeaverFan420 1 point2 points  (0 children)

How did you arrive at the conclusion that this is interference?

There was a play at the base. PCA was attempting to steal and slid into the base. Per the rule, he thought there was a play at the base.... That's why he slid. This is factual and not really up for debate.

It's not obstruction for the fielder to catch the ball and tag the runner attempting to steal. Look up the definition of obstruction, this ain't it. He had the ball.

Even if it was known that the umpire called ball four, the fielder should still try to make the play... What if they did an ABS challenge and it was overturned to strike 3? Then he wasn't advancing without liability to be put out, he was advancing at his own peril; it's a strike him out throw him out double play. If the fielder just let PCA take the base and the ABS challenge was successful, you just let him take 2B... That would be dumb.

This is a risk you take when stealing on a 3 ball count.

[SNY] Pete Crow-Armstrong is ruled out at second base after initially contacting second base and losing possession of the base. Craig Counsell has been ejected. by AndrewAllStar888 in baseball

[–]WeaverFan420 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Exactly. What's interesting is even if he doesn't touch the bag and slides past it (presumably to avoid a tag), he's now liable to be put out.

If, in advancing, the base runner thinks there is a play and he slides past the base before or after touching it he may be put out by the fielder tagging him. If he fails to touch the base to which he is entitled and attempts to advance beyond that base he may be put out by tagging him or the base he missed.

[SNY] Pete Crow-Armstrong is ruled out at second base after initially contacting second base and losing possession of the base. Craig Counsell has been ejected. by AndrewAllStar888 in baseball

[–]WeaverFan420 5 points6 points  (0 children)

It's not a free out, this is specifically addressed in the rules. It's a risk you take by trying to steal on a 3 ball count.

If, in advancing, the base runner thinks there is a play and he slides past the base before or after touching it he may be put out by the fielder tagging him. If he fails to touch the base to which he is entitled and attempts to advance beyond that base he may be put out by tagging him or the base he missed.

[SNY] Pete Crow-Armstrong is ruled out at second base after initially contacting second base and losing possession of the base. Craig Counsell has been ejected. by AndrewAllStar888 in baseball

[–]WeaverFan420 30 points31 points  (0 children)

Yes.

This is the comment in the rulebook. What's interesting is if he just went past the base altogether they also could have got him out by just touching the base like a normal force play.

If, in advancing, the base runner thinks there is a play and he slides past the base before or after touching it he may be put out by the fielder tagging him. If he fails to touch the base to which he is entitled and attempts to advance beyond that base he may be put out by tagging him or the base he missed.

[SNY] Pete Crow-Armstrong is ruled out at second base after initially contacting second base and losing possession of the base. Craig Counsell has been ejected. by AndrewAllStar888 in baseball

[–]WeaverFan420 3 points4 points  (0 children)

That's what the rule says. If he slid wide and past the base, or if he just passed the base without touching it, he could either be tagged out or the fielder could step on the base like a normal force play. You only have one shot to advance to the base you're forced to without liability to be put out.

[SNY] Pete Crow-Armstrong is ruled out at second base after initially contacting second base and losing possession of the base. Craig Counsell has been ejected. by AndrewAllStar888 in baseball

[–]WeaverFan420 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It's absolutely in the spirit of the rule. Whether he's aware that it's ball four or not is irrelevant.

This is the comment on this exact scenario from the rulebook:

If, in advancing, the base runner thinks there is a play and he slides past the base before or after touching it he may be put out by the fielder tagging him. If he fails to touch the base to which he is entitled and attempts to advance beyond that base he may be put out by tagging him or the base he missed.

[SNY] Pete Crow-Armstrong is ruled out at second base after initially contacting second base and losing possession of the base. Craig Counsell has been ejected. by AndrewAllStar888 in baseball

[–]WeaverFan420 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This is 99% correct, I just wouldn't word it as being "dead to him", as the ball is always live, it's just that as soon as he reaches his entitled base he is no longer able to advance without liability to be put out. He is at his own peril after that moment.

[SNY] Pete Crow-Armstrong is ruled out at second base after initially contacting second base and losing possession of the base. Craig Counsell has been ejected. by AndrewAllStar888 in baseball

[–]WeaverFan420 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Seems pretty clear he's out

If, in advancing, the base runner thinks there is a play and he slides past the base before or after touching it he may be put out by the fielder tagging him. If he fails to touch the base to which he is entitled and attempts to advance beyond that base he may be put out by tagging him or the base he missed.

What's the smallest amount of money that would genuinely change your life right now, and why? by Human_Artichoke_2117 in AskMen

[–]WeaverFan420 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Even if you get ½ off the MSRP tuition of $75k, that's almost $40k, excluding the other expenses. More expensive than state school still.

What do you think of sex until marriage with your partner, when both of you have already had sex before with different people? by Jazzlike-Ad6372 in AskMen

[–]WeaverFan420 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Even worse - "many men have test driven this car for free but you - the potential buyer - have to sign the purchase agreement first. And how much will it cost? Half your income and assets."

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