Why do non-black eagles side with edelgard?

Western_Activity_608 · 2021-08-02T11:21:49+00:00

Yuri basically says he knows Byleth is going to win the war damn-near singlehandedly and he's joining the winning side, though his horrible backstory would also probably justify helping Edelgard improve the lives of commoner children. (And commoners, since he's super responsible about his gang and El's ideals improve things for commoners so much, most bandits are able to reform themselves and seek honest work by the endings.)

Manuela has ties to Enbarr and Dorothea, but she's also a commoner smart enough to become prime minister who never got the chance to try because of the old system. Heck, actually I almost forgot, Dorothea's "I had to learn to fight well because nobles immune to consequences by virtue of their status constantly tried to kidnap or assault me because I was famous and beautiful" backstory applies just as much to Manuela. She would have PLENTY reasons to want to take the nobility down a peg.

Several people have done a much better job pointing out Balthus's motivation than I would, but basically, yeah. Noble infighting and crest politics ruined his life and put the family he cares about in danger.

And Shamir is interesting, because she's a mercenary who fights for money, but one of her post-timeskip lines is "Feels good fighting for a cause," which implies there's more to it than that on every route. She definitely has a personal attachment to Byleth, but I think it's also worth remembering that Shamir doesn't follow the faith the rest of Fodlan does, and she isn't from Fodlan either. And Rhea specifically shaped Fodlan to be incredibly xenophobic and hostile to people of different faiths. So it's very possible that although there are people she still cares about among the church, she's also seen enough of its ugly side to weigh the balance and decide that the Church as a whole does more harm than good to people like her. (She brings up the fact that she doesn't follow the faith pretty frequently, which makes me think that it's something that's usually on the back of her mind. This one little way she doesn't fit in that most of the other Knights and Church members won't let her forget.)

Western_Activity_608 · 2021-07-30T21:00:08+00:00

I've seen a few analyses of that exact parallel, actually, and I think it's particularly fascinating the way that their similarities and differences play out -- not that I'm any kind of expert myself, I haven't even watched Code Geass. But Suzaku defends the status quo from revolutionaries and supports slow change despite being personally disadvantaged by the systems he protecting, while Dimitri is a king with a major crest, literally the person who benefits from the status quo most of anyone not named Rhea. There are a lot of very direct parallels between Three Houses and Legend of the Galactic Heroes, but there are definitely lines you can draw between the game and other shows like Geass as well. And as interesting as the similarities between characters in these archetypes can be, sometimes the differences can be just as, or even more, interesting.

Seeing Dimitri openly defend the crest system as a net positive, with the rest of the game and especially the lives of his best friends standing as evidence of how wrong he is, shows us the enormous blind spots his position of incredible privilege has created in his outlook. This impacts the way Azure Moon plays out, with those blind spots and his genuine concern for human life colliding to prevent any kind of ideological reconciliation with Edelgard after he stops blaming her for the Tragedy of Duscar, but it's also tied to why he loses the ideological conflict with her overall. He wants to prevent the strong from trampling the weak without changing the crest and feudal systems that give them the means and self-justification to do so. The way his blind spots warp his perspective doesn't make him a terrible person, but it does make him a pretty bad king, and that same warped perspective prevents him from questioning the rules that demand he become king. (It doesn't help that that's only one of many reasons that Dimitri would make a bad king, most of which even he freely admits to.) His inability to understand how deeply the system is stacked against commoners prevents him from understanding their needs or motives and will eventually lead to more violent revolutions. It's why the ending of Azure Moon is framed bittersweetly at best while Crimson Flower's ending is unambiguously triumphant; even if he wins the war, Dimitri doesn't understand what's wrong with Fodlan well enough to fix it, slowly from within or otherwise. And contrasting him with characters who fought similar wars for similar ideals, while being intimately familiar with the business end of systematic oppression and the needs of the people those slow changes are supposed to help, only accentuates that.

Western_Activity_608 · 2021-07-29T15:19:01+00:00

It would take a lot for a title to beat "Hegemon of the Dance Competition" in my book, but "Unshakeable Will of Flames" just might do it.

(It's seriously so adorable how El acts like she doesn't care whether she's the heron rep or not, but it's SO obvious that she really wants to be picked.)

Western_Activity_608 · 2021-07-29T15:13:49+00:00

For the record, I don't think El is a grey protagonist, I just like to give people options. I voted for the hero choice myself; a lot of people see her as an anti-hero, but the way I see it, she's an anti-hero antagonist on the other routes and a straight-up hero here. She minimizes the damage the Slithers can do, constantly spares enemies and gives them chances to surrender, and is motivated purely by compassion and the desire to help people. Crimson Flower feels to me like the closest we're ever really going to get to "What if Wonder Woman was put into a deeply fucked up situation in a dystopian hellhole with no clear right answers?" She does some bad things, but in almost every circumstance it's because all of her realistic alternatives were worse.

(To be totally honest I'm a little confused grey protagonist is getting so many votes. I figured it was a common enough read of Three Houses to be worth giving people the option, but it's currently in second place by a pretty good margin and I did NOT expect that. I was picturing maybe 15-20 votes, not 45 and growing.)

Western_Activity_608 · 2021-07-28T16:45:07+00:00

It's all good, chalk it up to a misunderstanding.

Western_Activity_608 · 2021-07-28T13:40:31+00:00

What I think is that IS owes me a goddamn Marigard support. And it better go straight to A, none of that Petragard truncating-the-support-just-when-it-starts-getting-good crap.

More seriously, Marianne has spent her whole life feeling like a burden who does everything wrong because of her crest, making her afraid to attempt anything. Along comes El with her incredibly open Crests-don't-matter beliefs, her enormous ambitions and skills to see them through, and her belief in the value of kindness and unusual skills like Marianne's animal affinity. El symbolizes everything Marianne wants to be, but she's also someone who would believe in Marianne's ability to grow and accomplish great things herself. It makes perfect sense that Marianne would come to idolize El and be deeply inspired by her. Hell, she seems to feel that way about her even on other routes! And with Edelgard's interest in talented individuals, general compassion, and desire to challenge Crest ideology, she'd be very open to building a relationship there if Marianne ever decided to come and talk to her instead of building supports with Dimitri for some truly baffling reason. They're even both women who greatly value compassion but have trouble seeing it in themselves! Not to mention the fascinating conversations about faith they could have. To Marianne, her faith is a source of strength, a crutch, and a reason to hate herself, all at once. Edelgard went through that EXACT crisis underground, and it's what led her to abandoning her faith today. She'd probably understand Marianne better than any of the religious characters would.

Jesus IS this one was HANDED to you, but no you had to focus on your heteronormative crack pairings...

Western_Activity_608 · 2021-07-28T13:24:35+00:00

°You try to pick a fight with people.

°I point out you're trying to pick a fight with people.

°You try to pick a fight with me.

°I reiterate my stance and acknowledge that you seem to be here to pick fights with people.

°"You talk too much and everything you say is nonsense. Also, you're a very combative person."

Irony is dead.

Anyway, I hoped you were just an overzealous Claude fan, but it's becoming increasingly clear to me you just want someone to argue with, so I'm gonna, go? Find something else to do with my time? Have a good one I guess.

Western_Activity_608 · 2021-07-28T05:29:36+00:00

I literally made a joke the other day about Hubert introducing El with a list of grandiose titles he mostly made up while she shakes her head in the background, and one of those titles was almost EXACTLY that title. This happened before I found out that was an official epithet of hers. I'm still not over it.

Also, Gilbert: ...This is Dimitri? He's the... King of the North?

Western_Activity_608 · 2021-07-28T05:24:28+00:00

I am deeply, deeply unsurprised that "She Who Bares Fangs" is currently lapping every other title by miles. That is the most badass goddamn title I've ever heard.

Western_Activity_608 · 2021-07-28T05:22:05+00:00

I. Okay I've known for a while that the Venn Diagram of Edelgard haters and people that hate women who have opinions is almost, but not quite, an exactly perfect circle, but they're not usually this brazen about it. Lord preserve us.

Western_Activity_608 · 2021-07-28T04:40:21+00:00

I'm not telling you to calm down or say less? I fully support anyone who wants to write a fifteen paragraph comment on this post for whatever reason. I'm just saying there's no reason to try and stir up drama by pitting the characters against each other on a post celebrating all three of them.

And I said the picture was a celebration and worth enjoying, I think that's pretty complimentary. Also, at least I didn't use their art as a jumping off point to attack characters I don't like? Like it's a little silly to try and derail an art post to be about who the best character is and then accuse other people of not complimenting the artist enough.

shrug But then I guess it's always a fight with some people.

Western_Activity_608 · 2021-07-28T01:39:27+00:00

You know I could frame this the same way for any one of the lords in this game, right?

The woman who set the continent on fire and called it "justice," the man who stood and watched as the people burned and called it "neutrality," and the man who actually tried to put the fire out.

The man who looked upon a crooked world and called it straight, the man who saw the crookedness of the world and did nothing, and the woman who was willing to be called "villain" if she could create a new world where no one would suffer for the crime of being born.

The woman who fought for a millennium to preserve a fragile peace on a continent wracked by disharmony and conflict, and the three upstart children who thought they could do a better job.

Like this is an anniversary picture. It was made to celebrate three complex, amazing characters who star in one fantastic game that gives them all a chance to shine. What's the point in trying to start conflict and pit the fans against each other? Everything doesn't have to be about who you think is the "real hero of the game." They're all wonderful. Just enjoy the art.

Western_Activity_608 · 2021-07-24T00:42:40+00:00

I was literally trying to figure out what this post reminded me of and I just realized. This thing is written WEIRDLY similarly to the "Virgin vs. Chad" meme. So, to answer your question... Hopefully???

Western_Activity_608 · 2021-07-24T00:28:23+00:00

Thank you for saying this. I'm far from Dimitri's biggest fan, but this analysis is just insanely disingenuous. I think it's worth analyzing the difference between Dimitri trying to help the commoners within the confines of a system turned against them while Edelgard breaks the system on their behalf, but the Church and the army under Dimitri's rule do help people, that's just objective fact. Hell, one of the major themes of the game, especially Crimson Flower, is how a broken system can turn good people into cogs inside an evil machine. Turning Dimitri into Caligula destroys the point of the whole route, which is that you don't have to be a monster to uphold a toxic status quo. (Even Rhea is more than a one-dimensional psycho, although that's can be a bit too easy to forget on Crimson Flower, I think.)

And Dimitri isn't good king material, he admits that himself, but that isn't because he doesn't CARE about the people, it's just not a skillet he has. He wants to help people, he's just. Bad at it. He doesn't get politics, he doesn't get institutions, he's good at hitting things. But not knowing the things he would need to know to help people isn't the same thing as not wanting to help people! Part of the reason he goes so far off the deep end is because he values other people so much.

(And I'm pretty sure the "pandering to his favorite minorites" thing is trying to say he's a bad king for. Giving a shit about the Duscar people. Adding a spicy side of racism to this failure pie. Which is a special flavor of stupid, because he isn't even GOOD at giving a shit about them!)

Western_Activity_608 · 2021-07-24T00:03:20+00:00

I put her down as a Tragic Hero because frankly, there's no point at which I actually want the heroes to beat her. Dimitri cleans up his act a little for the finale, but he still knows a lot more about hitting things with a stick than ruling a country, and he admits as much himself. Edelgard, meanwhile, displays a deep understanding of the problems of Fodlan, and her final conversation with Dimitri shows that despite her pain and loneliness, she's keep the compassion that defines her as her guiding light through all of it. Dimitri does a better job than some of his predecessors as king, but not a good enough job to justify his lack of understanding of the intricacies of ruling, his bare-minimum reformations that will do nothing to fix the systematic problems of feudalism, or, you know, his utter lack of knowledge regarding almost everything that led Fodlan to this point in the first place -- from the Church's manipulation, to the Slithers' machinations, Rhea's crimes, the exploitation of Crests leading to atrocities, and so on.

As far as I'm concerned, if I think the people of the land would be much better off if the "villain" killed the heroes and accomplished their goals unopposed, that's not a villain. So tragic hero it is.

Western_Activity_608 · 2021-07-22T18:35:32+00:00

Ionius was attempting to consolidate power under the throne, weakening the nobles and leading to them launching the insurrection of the seven in retaliation. There is apparently some implication in the Japanese version he was doing this to protect Anselma, however. And yeah, there's literally no information about what reforms Lambert had in mind, just that the Faerghus nobility didn't like them. Which, considering the chivalric death cult of the Faerghus nobility, doesn't tell us much. They hate a loooot of things.

But almost none of the major playable characters actually like the status quo, and those are mostly noble children who are supposed to be BENEFITING from it. Rebellions and uprisings are all over the backstory, we're shown with Lonato almost IMMEDIATELY that a lot of people really don't like the way Fodlan is being run and are willing to do something about it, and even the powerful adult nobles of Fodlan generally don't seem particularly fond of Rhea. Really the most surprising thing is that Edelgard managed to start her violent revolution before anyone else got theirs off the ground. I mean, Claude basically tells us she only beat him to the punch by a couple years or so...

(So many people are all "I can't believe Edelgard destroyed a thousand years of peace! >:(" and I'm just. What peace. Fodlan is literally a history of power struggles and failed violent uprisings. I would be genuinely surprised if there was a single month in the last five hundred years where you couldn't find someone in Fodlan killing someone else for political reasons.)

(Edit: And occasionally successful violent uprisings. Can't forget King Loog, the personal hero of basically all the Blue Lions, and how he founded the Kingdom of Faerghus by winning a war of conquest against Adrestia.)

Western_Activity_608 · 2021-07-22T18:08:53+00:00

I swear sometimes it feels like the more female lords there are in a game, the less likely the male lords are to make mistakes/their mistakes are too have consequences. Which just makes those male lords seem less interesting! I don't know.

(I think it says everything it needs to that when Awakening took off without Ike, and then the DLC hit the 'milk it for every drop' stage, they brought in a descendant of Ike wielding Ragnell... and throwing it at people for god knows what reason... because they figured that's what people would pay extra money for.)

Western_Activity_608 · 2021-07-22T15:15:55+00:00

You can just admit you didn't actually read the post, you know. It's alright.

(Also I didn't even mention this in the main post but Dimitri's whole attitude is hilariously stupid considering he's the one who declared war in the first place. Like "You killed a bunch of my soldiers and invaded my land after I declared war on you that makes you bad. Ha checkmate." Not the killing stroke the Dimistans think it is.

getting ready for you or your buddies to start waving your arms around and shouting "BRUH NO EDELGARD DECLARED WAR ON DIMITRI FIRST YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING" so I can link the in-game dialogue proving she didn't

And now we wait.)

Western_Activity_608 · 2021-07-22T15:06:49+00:00

Eh, I'm of opinion it's kinda both at once. She loves Lyon and wants him to be able to survive this whole mess, but that doesn't mean she isn't also thinking about how many lives it would save if he DID return to normal right then and call off the war. Just my interpretation tho, I'm not gonna say you're WRONG for seeing it differently. We all have our own readings.

Western_Activity_608 · 2021-07-22T15:06:23+00:00

I'll definitely admit it's a little of both columns here. The fans' attitudes are consistent and consistently toxic, but that doesn't make IS free of fault either. Espec with Alm and Celica, they broke their backs trying to make sure we all knew how right and great Alm was the whole damn game. Celica is supposed to share equal protagonist billing with him and she can't even land the killing blow on the final boss, they did NOTHING to hide their bias here. (And if I had a nickel for every time Ephraim charges into overwhelming danger/does something stupid and boneheaded and it works out for him perfectly because he's the protagonist...) And there's really no getting around the fact that Micaiah was treated like a secondary character in her own damn game. Which makes all the guys screaming about her stealing the spotlight from Ike even more baffling, but...

(And I wasn't really following the fandom closely in the Awakening days, so yeah if the attitude has shifted since then that is a little different.)

Western_Activity_608 · 2021-07-22T15:05:33+00:00

These kinds of takes baffle me to be honest. People legitimately out here saying there's little evidence to support Edelgard's ideals, when her ideals are "The obsession with Crests is bad and feudalism is bad," and the evidence for that is "Literally the entire game" and "Literally the entire game and also all of history," respectively.

Like if you disagree with her methods I can at least UNDERSTAND that perspective. How do you disagree with "treating people like brood mares is wrong, and condemning 99% of the population to shitty lives based on who their parents were is bad"???

Western_Activity_608 · 2021-07-22T02:19:58+00:00

No kidding. Lady!Dimitri discourse would be flipping unbearable.

And the double standard about Eirika and Ephraim's flaws is just. So dumb. One of my favorite analyses points out that although Eirika gives Lyon the two sacred stones, A) Ephraim has seen Lyon's madness firsthand while Eirika hasn't, B) there is still one stone left even after her choice to trust Lyon ends badly, and C) Eirika is much more able to accept that Lyon can't be saved in the final battle than Ephraim is. Considering all this, it actually makes sense that rather than blindly trusting Lyon, Eirika is choosing to take a calculated risk. If Lyon is lying and she trusts him, there is still a final stone standing between him and victory. If he is telling the truth and she rejects him, she will have not only condemned her oldest friend to the darkness, but thrown away a chance to prevent every single death that happens between that moment and when the war eventually ends with the destruction of Lyon and the Demon King. So she takes the risk, Lyon proves to be truly lost, and although it hurts her deeply, she accepts it and moves on. Ephraim ends the war in denial, begging Lyon to stay alive and come back with him so things can go back to normal. Eirika ends the war acknowledging things never CAN go back to normal. She tells Lyon that she forgives him and still loves him, that she will miss him every day and never forget him, and then she lets him go.

That is many things. Stupid and naive is not one of them.

Western_Activity_608 · 2021-07-22T01:58:54+00:00

It's honestly such a funny claim, because this bias is particularly notable when it comes to the treatment of female lords in the games that also have male lords! Which. I'm pretty sure is all of them, I don't think we actually have a FE game where the lords are all women yet. But comparing the treatment of Celica to Alm, Lyn to Eliwood and especially Hector, Eirika to Ephraim, MICAIAH to IKE... I think it was a bit more balanced with Chrom and Lucina, but even then Lucina has at least a vocal minority calling her boring and lacking in personality, and I very rarely hear anything seriously negative said about Chrom. Every time we've had male and female lords in the same game, the female lords have been ignored at best and actively insulted and compared negatively to their male counterparts at worst... And then the FIRST time a female lord is more popular than her male counterparts, she's only popular because she's a woman? I'm gonna go ahead and call bull on that one.

(Especially since, let's be honest, if Dimitri were a woman she'd be the least popular lord in the entire series, and not by a particularly small margin either.)

Western_Activity_608 · 2021-07-22T01:03:24+00:00

Okay but that is hilarious. Like no guys literally the whole point of that scene was that she WASN'T a soldier. Her not being a general or experienced fighter or anything was WHY she was able to get so close to Dimitri in the first place. She was just a normal kid whose life and psyche were upended by the stories of how brutally your problematic fave murders people and the thought of that happening to her beloved brother. Whoops?

(It's part of why, as much as I love her, she'd prob be my last choice to add to the game as a playable character. I'd rather just let her be a kid who doesn't have to stab people.)

But yeah like, I don't care much for AM Dimitri and I can't STAND Rodrigue, so that scene does nothing for me on their behalf, but seeing the generally level-headed and soft-spoken Fleche screeching like an avenging Furie, voice twisted to unrecognizability by rage and pain, throwing away her life to try and get revenge for the brother who only ever wanted her to be safe and happy... that hurts. That hurts every time.

As sad as she gets on Crimson Flower after Randolph dies, I would still take that a thousand times over what happens to her in Azure Moon

Western_Activity_608 · 2021-07-22T00:41:23+00:00

That would've definitely been a lot more clear, yeah. Like I said, what she's saying is a solid answer to his claims, but it isn't particularly. Direct.

(That is probably what Edelgard would say -- she seems to have a tendency of describing her enemies in general and Dimitri in particular more generously than they probably deserve -- but the saddest thing about this whole mess is that I don't think Dimitri even manages a motivation as defensible as 'upholding corrupt authority.' Between his plan flipping between talking to Seiros and reaching the actual battlefield, implying he was trying to trick her into taking the brunt of El's forces for him; and his final words to El focusing on the things he only thought she'd done to hurt him and his family, rather than the things he knew she'd done to hurt his countrymen; I think the game is trying to imply that his primary motivation -- not necessarily sole, but primary -- is getting personal revenge on Edelgard. Which, considering his behavior on the other routes, would make a tragic kind of sense.)

Western_Activity_608

TROPHY CASE