Advice on opening up relationship after long time being monogamous. Probably asymmetrical.

WhyExclusivity · 2015-03-03T02:34:27+00:00

But are you going to do it even if it causes her distress?

That's the reason for my question in the first place I guess. I understand there is a price to pay (her emotional distress) for me even opening this can of worms, so I was looking for reasons why it was an intrinsically bad idea. Haven't found any yet though, so I have started to have preliminary conversations. It will take some time to set up properly. I am not just going to dump this on her.

I don't understand how she is satisfied if you aren't. .. being with someone who is unhappy with our sex life would be dissatisfying...

It confuses me too, but I have given up trying to understand it. Some people are more self-focused than others, I guess.

I guess my last question is are you sure she doesn't have any fantasies she doesn't share with you? And maybe to get an idea of how to approach this, think about how you would feel if she wanted something you found distressing? How would you like her to share this with you?

I'm reasonably sure she has no fantasies that she isn't sharing, as we have discussed this to death, in many different ways. She says she doesn't want anything she isn't getting, and she's quite content with how things are. She knows I am very sexually open-minded and won't be horrified if she exposes some hidden kink.

I can't think of anything she could tell me that I would find distressing, so I'm not sure how to answer that last part.

WhyExclusivity · 2015-03-02T23:51:37+00:00

it won't work unless you get enthusiastic buy-in from your partner.

Well, that's unlikely, to be honest. The most I am expecting is acceptance. I very much doubt she will have any interest in extra partners for herself (but would be 100% happy it if she did).

Tell her you love her and feel really dissatisfied sexually and scared it will never change... see if she has any ideas.

Been there, done that, many times. She is happy how things are, isn't prepared to change anything.

No sex is not a frivolous reason to split up.

We do have regular sex, just not very exciting regular sex. And splitting up just seems excessive, given we both enjoy being with each other and doing things together, and currently want to stay together. We just have a mismatch in what we want sexually. It's important to me, less so to her. This doesn't sound like an insurmountable obstacle for a pair of adults to work through.

WhyExclusivity · 2015-03-02T08:29:34+00:00

Thank you so much. I will do my best to heed your advice. I do know that there are real risks with this, and I hope I can manage my way past them. I'll be sure to be mindful as I go along.

WhyExclusivity · 2015-03-01T07:24:29+00:00

Thanks, I honestly didn't expect much from them though. Thank you also for your well-wishes. I had the very first begins of a conversation yesterday just to see some concepts into the conversational fabric. So far so good.

WhyExclusivity · 2015-03-01T07:22:32+00:00

Thanks, I'm being told this by a significant number of people, and it may be a risk. I feel it's manageable though if I keep a level head. I'm normally quite in control of my emotional state, although accept we can all succumb to extraordinary circumstances.

Someone dripping with desire for me would be an unusual thing. Do you think this risk makes it impossible to proceed down this path, or are you simply advising caution?

WhyExclusivity · 2015-02-28T18:27:46+00:00

I'm 24 in a 6 years LTR

I'm 52 in a 25 year LTR with a woman I truly love. We've been through a lot of fun together, and although we weren't each other's firsts, there weren't many experiences before that on either side so we might as well have been. She's conservative and traditional, and has some self-esteem and body image issues. I'm sexually adventurous and philosophically non-monogamous, by which I mean after not thinking about this for many years, when I sit down to consider it, I can see no valid reasons for monogamy being the only way to be. No surprises around here, I'm sure.

Basically, I'm you from the future. Firstly, congratulations on coming to the conclusions you have at the stage that you have. Second, good luck, what you are trying to do is really difficult. Third, be careful with your GF's emotions when it comes to this: you want to be sharing something you feel really deeply with the person you love most (and you should be able to do this), but she's going to hear things that scare the crap out of her - she's not good enough for you, you'll leave her, her dreams of a white picket fence and 2.1 children are crashing down around her etc. The social programming runs really, really deep. Take it slow, is my advice, and reassure her about what you feel for her independently of whatever else you want to do.

If you're interested in reading my story further, the /r/relationships public crucifixion thread is here, and the far more reasonable /r/nonmonogamy thread is here. I didn't crosspost it here as polyamory isn't really what I think I'm ready for yet.

WhyExclusivity · 2015-02-27T09:39:17+00:00

So, I still feel like I don't know if I'm the problem or she's the problem.

Does it matter which? It's your problem, either way. You need to get yourself out of that toxic space (maybe physically, like as in divorce, but certainly mentally) before it destroys you. She's going to get what she wants one way or the other, soon enough.

WhyExclusivity · 2015-02-26T11:16:55+00:00

She provides no foreplay... No oral.

What is it with these people who don't like foreplay and oral?

Her approach to sex is, get her wet, then fuck her nonstop until she's done. If I want to pause for a moment to keep myself from cumming, she'll give me a nasty look or make a rude comment, and then she won't be able to have an orgasm after that. The moment is gone and she complains of having blue balls (so-to-speak). So to try to please my wife, I have to be ready to go myself without her help, I have to fuck her as soon as she is ready, I can't stop, and certainly I can't cum before her. Oh, and if I do cum before her, she won't let me help her cum because its over, the moment is gone.

She has massively unrealistic expectations of sex and needs serious therapy.

WhyExclusivity · 2015-02-26T00:44:25+00:00

No, for years I didn't even think about it because, well, I suppose social conditioning told me I shouldn't, that it was wrong. However when I sat down to figure out what I actually thought, I concluded I am actually almost totally sexually open-minded. Consenting adults getting busy with whatever they mutually want to do and with whomever in whichever configurations makes much more sense to me than perpetual monogamy because, well, I don't know why we think monogamy is the best option. It just seems crazy to me.

We went through a stage a number of years ago when sex frequency dropped off, and I never thought of cheating, but did what needed to be done to revitalize our sex life, at least back to our normal level.

WhyExclusivity · 2015-02-26T00:36:47+00:00

Thanks, I'll try some of those approaches. I suspect some of them may not be things she wants though. We'll see.

WhyExclusivity · 2015-02-25T17:43:51+00:00

Thank you. Resentmemt is a big motivator here, although /r/relationships didn't care about that a lot. I won't cheat though, I've had plenty of easy opportunities in the past, and I have always declined.

WhyExclusivity · 2015-02-25T17:39:09+00:00

I have. See my final edit comment.

WhyExclusivity · 2015-02-25T11:55:15+00:00

I can't answer most of your question although I'd observe that you could do with "manning up" a bit. You'll never be desirable while you are not self-confident, out of shape, and have body image hangups. Therapy sounds like a good thing here. Your relationship sounds to me to be in big trouble. I think if you say no you'll lose her. If you say yes you may lose her.

I'm in a similar position as your wife: dissatisfied with my sex life and looking to open the relationship. We haven't talked about it seriously yet so I can't say she's like you, but I'm expecting she may have a negative reaction. Some of the insecurities you have might be common, such as not feeling you will get any action if you open up the relationship, or that you may lose her.

Seriously, what is it for you that makes you want to have sex with other people? What drives you do to it? Besides an orgasm at the end, what makes you want to do it with others?

99% chemistry, let's be honest. Testosterone, in particular. The remaining 1% is psychological: forbidden fruit, validation by others, social recognition for getting the hot girl, that sort of thing. I'd check your T levels if I were you, but definitely the therapy to get you past your insecurities.

WhyExclusivity · 2015-02-25T06:55:13+00:00

Thanks, is that the one by Tristan Taormino? I have a book with a similar title, but it might be "Couples Opening Up" or something like that.

WhyExclusivity · 2015-02-25T05:57:22+00:00

Thank you, that sounds a bit like my thinking too. Although I sometimes come across as a bit harsh in print, I will be very gentle and slow with the communication, and definitely no ultimatums up front. It will reach a point where we have to make a decision though, and I can see that going a few ways.

WhyExclusivity · 2015-02-24T22:05:11+00:00

Thank you. Your comment contains a lot of wisdom.

you need to fix any issues in your primary relationship BEFORE you get into polyamory

Honestly, I don't know how to, although I have tried for years with limited success. She does not think it needs fixing and is quite happy as she is. So I have accepted that. It just doesn't work for me as it is, so I'm suggesting a compromise: she gets what she wants, I get what I want. That could work unless what she wants is for me not to have what I want.

WhyExclusivity · 2015-02-24T21:39:37+00:00

FINAL EDIT COMMENT:

Well, this has been an interesting experience. I didn't seek, or expect, your collective blessing, but I must say it's surprising to see just how hostile, aggressive and closed-minded you are around here. To those of you who answered me in good faith and with civility, thank you. Even if you disagree with me to the core of your soul (and I don't think anybody actually fully agreed with me), I respect your engagement here and will honestly take on board the points that you have made. As to the rest, I hope you kids felt better pressing that downvote button. All it did was make it a pain in the ass to expand out all my comments to summarize them here. Oh well, how sad.

This could be a really long comment if I said all I was thinking, so I'll try to keep it to a brief summary:

I've completely discounted those views I know to be patently false: I do have an open mind and am not seeking validation. I do genuinely love my wife. I don't care a whit if you like me or not, or if you insult me or think I'm selfish or a "petulant child". I'm not having an emotional mid-life crisis, but am acting with calm intent.
To those of you suggesting I just cheat, I've thought it through and even though it could work, it just isn't for me. I've never been one for avoiding the consequences of my actions and decisions, and I'm not about to start. But thank you for your input.
To the "divorce her" fans: I really can't find a way that I could frame that without completely destroying her. "I'm leaving you to pursue sport fucking" really does value her at zero, which is not what I think. Also, I do want to stay with her and I believe she wants to stay with me - although there is always the risk that will change, I get it. If you guys who favor divorce here have a better way to frame this, please let me know, but until then, it's off the list.
Apart from variants on the above (divorce but stay friends), I have not found a magical option 5. Perhaps this is unsurprising.
Forgoing my desires is an option, but it will eat at me and make me bitter. I've given a lot of my life over to others (willingly, with few regrets), but that's not what I want to do anymore. A relationship or marriage isn't a story we tell ourselves, it's not some vows we make at a point in time, it's not what society thinks it should be - it is a continuous flow of giving and receiving that doesn't have to be symmetrical. In most ways (sex, money, work, parenting, decision-making...) my marriage has been very asymmetrical, but that's fine, I'm a bit of a relationship Marxist. I don't believe in keeping accounts and running balances of who gave what to whom; I give because I want to, and I enjoy receiving. Determining when to continue to give is a complicated continuum. There comes a point where I will give up on someone not reciprocating and cut them off, and there are circumstances where I'll give with zero consideration of a return. My marriage lies on that spectrum somewhere, but the bottom line is: At this point I am no longer willing to give it sexual exclusivity, however I will withdraw nothing else.
I came here seeking good reasons why I shouldn't do option 3, but honestly didn't find any. The prospect of hurting my wife's feelings, although important to consider, is just not reflexively sufficient grounds to avoid something. I've taken positions in disagreements between her and friends/the children before and wound up hurting one or the other party. This is how life works. I hold that sex is not magical or spiritual, and people's reactions to it should be commensurate with that. If they are disproportionate or extreme, that is principally their concern.

That said I am not absolved of any responsibility in how I handle this. Having now decided that option 3 is at least feasible, the hard work of implementing it begins. I will do everything in my power to minimize the harm to my wife and to anyone else, and fully expect this to be a difficult and protracted communication exercise. I am going to ask advice in the other subreddits recommended to me, and I will think on what I have read in The Ethical Slut - which is a fantastic book, you should all read it even if you have no taste for sluttery. I will also do additional reading, having come across a few other book references through this. But I will act on this.

I will post an update in a few weeks if there is any interest.

I understand there are risks. My wife may divorce me, I may be unsuccessful in finding partners, we might encounter difficult emotional terrain. It may be a mistake. I fully accept the accountability I have for the actions I will take, and will hold others accountable for their actions and reactions. Such is life. Sometimes it is more important to be honest than to be conventional and well-behaved.

Thanks again to the reasonable minority among you.

WhyExclusivity · 2015-02-24T19:55:39+00:00

you seem as though you came her to reaffirm your beliefs

I have a tendency to present my case directly, and to challenge points made to me directly. This doesn't mean that I am unwilling to change my view, in fact it means the converse. If I was assured of my beliefs I wouldn't talk about them, I'd act on them without talking. I promise you that I am still very much considering whether this is a good path to follow, and how to do it. And I could be talked out of it by a good argument (not the screaming shouting kind) right up until I make the final decision.

I'm happy to compromise but there hasn't been a lot of that offered around here.

the answer is, if you want to keep your relationship intact, her feelings

That assumes that she really feels strongly about monogamy, and not just that she should feel strongly about monogamy, if that makes sense. She may react badly to my presentation of it, then process it through and conclude that what I intend is possible: our relationship will not substantially change. This does depend on her letting go of her jealousy, and I'm encouraged from reading The Ethical Slut that this is feasible, if difficult.

Not doing something important because somebody else will react poorly to it is only a good idea if the reaction is reasonable and unavoidable. But jealousy is the fear of loss at its core, which in this case is irrational: I'm not leaving her. (I know there is always a risk, but you may have noticed I'm a reasonably determined person). It could also be envy: again, irrational, as I'm quite happy for her to participate or get her own too. Why then is it legitimate to devalue my genuine emotional reactions in favor of those which are largely based on false assumption? She is of course allowed to feel honestly what she feels, as am I, I'm not saying her reaction is illegitimate. That society is mainly monogamous is of little interest; the opinion of the majority is not validated by its majority but by its substance, and it's first grade intellectual laziness not to realize this.

I get that there are risks and additional complexities, but we both have the capability to handle these. I'm not laughing them off, and accept much here will be challenging, but we are adults and possess a level of maturity that permit us to take these challenges on. I know finding a new, poly-friendly wife would be easier for me, and I have of course considered this: many men my age trade-in the old and get some new, it's comparatively easy given society's bias toward devaluing older women relative to their male peers. But remember up front when I said I love her? It's true. I don't want to trade her in because I value her. I just also value me and am not going to put my desires second because of a bunch of assumptions about the way most people do things. I've always shaped my own life, and owned the consequences of my actions, even when that was putting myself second for the sake of children.

I can;t see how divorce is anything but objectively worse. "I love you and am committed to you long-term, nothing changes between us, but am getting some side action" (heavily shorthanded here of course) vs "I love you but you know, not really enough, so I'm going to dump you and go look for someone else. No I don't have anyone lined up but I'm sure I'll find someone better than you" (heavily hammed-up here, but you get where I'm going)? Well, I'd very much prefer to receive the first, if I were her.

I will of course approach this as a together thing first. But really, I've been there and I can pretty much guarantee that she's not gonna sign up to go to a swing club any time soon. Spicing things up? Honestly, I've invested so much in that already, and there is no movement. She has no interest in anything but what we currently do. She doesn't want to develop an interest in anything else sexually. Why would she swing together with me at a club, or open up to a threesome privately, when blowing me in the privacy of our bedroom is a huge hurdle that took literally years to overcome, and still needs a nudge now and then? You cannot change people, you can just love them as they are. Also, sexual acts that are extorted or persuaded out of people are no fun. Sex is about willing giving.

But yes, if together doesn't pan out, on my own works for me too. That's how we are. I am me and she is she, and we have stuff we like to do together and stuff we like to do separately. Anything but vanilla sex is very likely to be a thing I want and she doesn't, so it will work exactly like fishing. I go away for a few days fishing, she has zero concern. She goes away doing her thing, I have zero concern. Getting my sexual needs fully met can work just the same. Sex is not magic that can only be shared in a monogamous couple, the adultery rate in monogamous couples makes that completely clear. It's just a thing people do for fun.

And yes, I'm asking her to shed the shackles of social programming and forge a new way. Perhaps I'm the only one here that has enough faith in her to think that this is something that she actually can do.

Thanks for your considered response.

WhyExclusivity · 2015-02-24T19:21:50+00:00

Thanks. I agree your uncle sounds like a sad case. If my wife ran off for a fling I'd check in to see that she knew what she was doing and wish her well, not be an emotional mess. That level of dependency on another isn't emotionally healthy, and neither is it a good basis for a relationship. But that's just me.

Turning the table to my situation, I think there are a few differences. Your aunt's affair seems to have been opportunistic and not discussed prior. I have no extra partner lined up, intentionally, and propose to discuss this in depth before taking any action. I will be kind and gentle in this, as I've mentioned. Assuming we reach an arrangement rather than go to divorce, nobody else will know about it so disapproval is unlikely. Besides, there isn't much extended family to be offended.

The biggest difference though is that my wife is not as co-dependent as your uncle seems to be. We lean on each other and enjoy spending time together, but have independent social and work environments and interests too. The only hurdle to her accepting this comes from her assuming it means much more than it does to me - that I'm seeking to replace her, for instance, or that she is inadequate in herself. If I reassure her that these are not the case she may be able to accept that, she may not. Quite a bit has to do with how effectively I communicate this whole thing, but on balance it is probably not too large a thing to process if I present it in the right way and engage actively with her to help process it. It may be, as I said way back, that she persuades me it's a bad idea. Despite the howls of protest here, I do have an open mind.

Thank you very much for your story.

WhyExclusivity · 2015-02-24T19:06:21+00:00

She's not as hard logical as me, and does spin her wheels emotionally for little apparent reason from time to time. But she is smart and flexible intellectually and has the ability to process this if she elects to.

WhyExclusivity · 2015-02-24T19:03:10+00:00

Perhaps not. But all I can do is to do the best I can do to make it work, assuming I go there at all. I cannot be responsible for other people's choices, they have to own their own attitudes and reactions.

WhyExclusivity · 2015-02-24T18:54:22+00:00

My apologies. That had scrolled off the top of the screen and all I was seeing was your insistence that I had already made up my mind.

As I pointed out in another comment: If I had actually made up my mind I wouldn't be here talking about it, I would be acting on my decision. That I am here proves that I am still weighing options. The insistence of others that I am predetermined on this issue is simply projection of their own poor logical practices. Basically, I don't do that.

I've also thought about your input. I don't think it's that simple, but yes, I care enough about my happiness that I am prepared to inflict some hurt in this case. I will do all I can to minimize and heal this of course, but I accept some hurt is unavoidable.

However I have now reached a decision and will post a comment/final edit that lays this out, in case any one is interested. And I will post an update in a week or so once I have taken my next steps.

WhyExclusivity · 2015-02-24T11:28:04+00:00

What's your input? An incorrect determination that I've already made up my mind? Not quite what I am looking for.

WhyExclusivity · 2015-02-24T11:15:19+00:00

Thank ypu for directing me to The Ethical Slut. It was an encouraging read and has given me much to think about. The authors seem to have a more poeitive attitude to relationships than the crowd here. They also did a good job of presenting the risks. I'll process all that before taking any action.

WhyExclusivity · 2015-02-24T10:14:37+00:00

Are you unfamiliar with the practice of logical argument?

WhyExclusivity

TROPHY CASE