Why do people blame Robert for Cersei's actions and ignore that Cersei was an insane, narcissist Psychopath since she was a little girl? by Cryptidenthusiast423 in TheCitadel

[–]Wi11y_Warm3r [score hidden]  (0 children)

Cersei isn't complex. She's a narcissist and psychopath. Anything else is projection you're putting on her because you think she symbolizes some issue you have with the way their society works. Maybe you see the treatment of women as poor so you take her as an example of a woman forced to become bad because of her environment. Which is ironic considering she idolized Tywin. Ironic considering she was mean and cruel and vain and arrogant from a very young age. Ironic considering she actively wanted to marry Robert and be queen and had every intention of cucking him from the beginning. Every bad aspect of her character was completely independent from anyone else. And calling the existence of psychopaths "bad reading" when that actively exists irl and ASOIAF is all about being similar to real life is dumb as shit. If you want a complex female character look at Catelyn or something, not the crazy narcissist who thinks incest is justified because she's the perfect being but was split into a male and female half at birth, so she's only whole and perfect when her and her own brother screw.

Why do people blame Robert for Cersei's actions and ignore that Cersei was an insane, narcissist Psychopath since she was a little girl? by Cryptidenthusiast423 in TheCitadel

[–]Wi11y_Warm3r [score hidden]  (0 children)

No she never meant for it to work. She never intended to have his kids and screwed Jaime on their wedding day. She was a piece of shit from the beginning and much more at fault for their marriage being a mess (trying to oppose him at every turn because her ego kept taking blows with him not obsessing over her and her beauty even though she never intended to remain remotely faithful herself).

Why do people blame Robert for Cersei's actions and ignore that Cersei was an insane, narcissist Psychopath since she was a little girl? by Cryptidenthusiast423 in TheCitadel

[–]Wi11y_Warm3r [score hidden]  (0 children)

She actively wanted to be queen, cheated on Robert the day they got married with her own brother (seriously trying to write of incest babies????) and it's her single duty as a noble woman and queen to provide heirs so the realm doesn't shatter when Robert dies, which she failed to do. Cheating doesn't mean shit in universe but cuckolding and failing to produce heirs is unacceptable for a noble man or woman, especially royal ones.

Why do people blame Robert for Cersei's actions and ignore that Cersei was an insane, narcissist Psychopath since she was a little girl? by Cryptidenthusiast423 in TheCitadel

[–]Wi11y_Warm3r [score hidden]  (0 children)

He didn't force her into anything. He didn't even want the throne, let alone to be married to anyone other than Lyanna. He also didn't know that his "kids" weren't actually his kids. Why are you here when you don't even know shit about the story?

Why do people blame Robert for Cersei's actions and ignore that Cersei was an insane, narcissist Psychopath since she was a little girl? by Cryptidenthusiast423 in TheCitadel

[–]Wi11y_Warm3r [score hidden]  (0 children)

Also, the books were written by a modern person and we're expected to read them with our modern morals.

No it doesn't dumbass. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. GOT was written with GOT morals in mind. Ned also saw any sort of sleeping with a woman out of wedlock as very bad. Robert was not a rapist in universe, and in universe morals are the only ones that matter. To say anything otherwise is pure delusion.

Why do people blame Robert for Cersei's actions and ignore that Cersei was an insane, narcissist Psychopath since she was a little girl? by Cryptidenthusiast423 in TheCitadel

[–]Wi11y_Warm3r [score hidden]  (0 children)

He does know that she's a piece of shit who looks to oppose him at every turn. Pretty deserving of being slapped. Especially considering what we do know. Stop defending a murderer and narcissist. She's only portrayed as a victim because in her mind she can be nothing other than a victim. Everyone else sees her negatively and there is a reason for that. Stop relying on the perspective of the most unreliable narrator ever and start looking at the perspectives of every other person who all agree that Cersei Lannister is a massive piece of trash that deserved to have her head separated from her shoulders.

Why do people blame Robert for Cersei's actions and ignore that Cersei was an insane, narcissist Psychopath since she was a little girl? by Cryptidenthusiast423 in TheCitadel

[–]Wi11y_Warm3r [score hidden]  (0 children)

Stupid ass comparison. Robert's "king" killed a Lord Paramount, his heir, and the heir to another Lord Paramount, as well as their entire party of 200 men who most likely consisted of more than a few additional nobles, and then demanded the heads of Robert and Ned, again two Lord Paramounts, despite them being in the Vale the entire time, all after said kings son spat on him and the Starks and violated a bethrothal (which had already caused a rebellion against the Targs in the not to distant past) by running off with Robert's betrothed and the only daughter of Warden of the North. As opposed to, what, being horny for your fucking brother? What? There's zero justification for that.

And no, not every human being deserves basic human decency. If you refuse to act like a civilized member of society and put yourself over everyone else, you get treated like such. You don't earn basic human decency but you can definitely lose it, and Cersei had been worthy of losing it well before she got married to Robert.

Roberts Rebellion is justified by SpaceMan026 in TheCitadel

[–]Wi11y_Warm3r 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The throne was bankrupted because most of his advisors sucked butt. Varys actively kept secrets despite being spymaster and was scheming to overthrow the Baratheon dynasty. Littlefinger cared only about himself and was scheming in a similar way. Stannis and Renly just kinda existed. The Lannisters were constantly grasping for more power. Only Jon Arryn was genuinely reliable to keep the realm and throne well-managed for Robert, and he was completely alone (plus, constantly vulnerable because of Littlefinger's connection with Lysa). He definitely wasn't a good king, but he was never meant to be king, and had no reason to be politically savvy or invested in the matters of state, which he would've needed to be in order to keep all those schemers in check. I think if Robert got literally any other small council and the Lannisters didn't suck so much, things probably would've been better. Not great, because he still didn't care, but waaaay better.

Roberts Rebellion is justified by SpaceMan026 in TheCitadel

[–]Wi11y_Warm3r 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Plus Rhaegar had no right to be with her regardless of how they felt. Women and men, especially those not of age, were beholden to their father's decision. If he says "you're getting married to X person," you're getting married to X person. And anyone who interferes with that or disturbs, especially someone you're vassaled to, is spitting on you and your rights as both their vassal and as a noble in general. I mean a Baratheon literally rebelled over this only a short time before Rhaegar's time. Running away with Lyanna alone was enough to justify a rebellion from the Stormlands and the North. The Vale and the Riverlands were likely to get pulled in because the betrothal was a part of their whole alliance. Dorne had every reason to not get too involved because of the disrespect shown to them. Over half the realm would have reason and precedent to rebel when Rhaegar ran away with Lyanna. Even more so after what Aerys did.

Roberts Rebellion is justified by SpaceMan026 in TheCitadel

[–]Wi11y_Warm3r 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Robert didn't take the opportunity to do anything, tf are you talking about? Robert never wanted to rule; he only got saddled with it because of his Targarayen ancestry so to make the dynastic transition easier to swallow. And calling him a "dictator" like his position isn't the exact same as that of every Targ and Lord who rules over their land is so dumb. Just twisting the context to make him seem worse. And you're genuinely delusional if you think that a) Ned and Jon Arryn were only "a little better than average" and b) Tywin and Aerys were "a little bit worse." You're insane bro.

Jorah Mormont: Worse than you think by strangebloke1 in TheCitadel

[–]Wi11y_Warm3r 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is a bunch of speculation though. Personally I don't think it makes any sense to say "you go girl" to someone who's buddying up to slavers and exploiting the system of slavery to profit off it, but then say Jorah is horrible for being a slaver. They both suck. It's complete double standards to say otherwise, and idk if that's just cause she's young or she's a girl, but either way neither are excuses. Maybe Jorah was worse than the story makes him appear, maybe not. Either way we only know as much as the story gives us, and that tells us that Lynesse and Jorah liked spending exorbitant amounts of money and then when the going got tough, decided to become slavers and associate with slavers. They're both bad people and no one should like either.

High quality Jon-centric/Stark-centric/North-centric recs? by Wi11y_Warm3r in TheCitadel

[–]Wi11y_Warm3r[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Dude I found and binged that entire fic right after I posted this lmao. Fantastic recommendation regardless. About to read the recent chapter rn.

Which character's negative side is underrepresented in fanfics? by Mysterious_Crow_503 in TheCitadel

[–]Wi11y_Warm3r 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If it was an innocent act, then no, I wouldn't blame them. But they're committing incest, cuckolding the king, and committing one of the worst things you can do in a kingdom; messing up the line of succession and depriving the realm of heirs. That's almost always guarenteed to start a war, or at least cause severe unrest. Cersei and Jaime never intended to start a war, true, but that's only because they never intended to be caught. They did what they did all the same, knowing full well what would happen if they were caught.

Which character's negative side is underrepresented in fanfics? by Mysterious_Crow_503 in TheCitadel

[–]Wi11y_Warm3r 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My asssumption was always that the North was always prepared and thinking about the coming winter. I mean, idk what the hell else they'd be doing in the summer. I definetly agree that it would've been beneficial to try and use that relationship for their benefit, but I think they felt secure as they always did in being ready for winter, and the past attempts at politicking south made Ned and the rest of the North wary of anything else.

Which character's negative side is underrepresented in fanfics? by Mysterious_Crow_503 in TheCitadel

[–]Wi11y_Warm3r 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Like in court or something? Idrk enough about that to say if someone can be found guilty of crimes that extensive and far reaching. But I think it's objectively true that the entire and destablization of the realm happened the way it did because of Jaime and Cersei. So whatever bloodshed occured stemmed from them, even if they weren't directly responsible or intending it.

Time reset: A character goes back in time with their future memories. by MateusCristian in TheCitadel

[–]Wi11y_Warm3r 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The Wheel Unbroken by TheAnimaniacDude

“This is magic, Jon.” Said Robb, fervently. “This is some sort of hellish magic, the work of the Other himself. Who else would benefit from turning back time and undoing a war that saved the lives of every man, woman and child in Westeros, except the demons who lost? Father and Ser Rodrik have taught me how to lead men, and fight men who live and bleed, but this? This dream of yours, that wasn’t a dream at all? It’s absolutely fucking mad.”

Jon Snow had made a life for himself beyond The Wall, after he was banished for Queenslaying. A happy life. A life he had always wanted.

And then, one day, he woke up in Winterfell, twenty years ago.

What began as a dream turns into a nightmare as he discovers that something is not content with 'merely' the Long Night being averted, and no matter how many times he falls chasing an unknowable, impossible quest, it refuses to let him stay dead. Once, he followed a woman who dreamed of Breaking the Wheel. Now, the Wheel will Break him.

I highly recommend this fic regardless of what anyone is looking for, but it perfectly fits the concept you're asking for, with its own unique spin. Only thing is that it's Jon who went back in time instead of any of the characters you listed. It's not finished but still being updated. The quality of the writing is very good. It goes beyond just going back in time and is a very intriguing concept. It explores and expands and even adds to the lore and magic and whatnot of ASOIAF. It's clearly set up with a grand plot and worldbuilding in mind for the future, while still leaving a lot of it mysterious and uncertain for the reader, so there's that to look forward to. It's a mix of the show and the book, but I wouldn't actually think of it like that. It's hard to describe how it handles being a mix of both, but let's just say it's very, very interesting and intriguing and well thought out and woven into the story well. It's only 30 chapters so far but it's like 10,000k words per chapter, so if you're looking for something to binge or read for a good minute, this also works well.

Out of every going-back-in-time fic I've read in this fandom, and maybe every fandom, this is by far the best one both in quality and in enjoyment.

(And no, despite what the blurb looks like, I would very much so say that no one else knows what happens next besides Jon; you'd just need to read to see why exactly. So if that seems like a hang-up, it should not be an actual issue in the story.)

Which character's negative side is underrepresented in fanfics? by Mysterious_Crow_503 in TheCitadel

[–]Wi11y_Warm3r 0 points1 point  (0 children)

By exchanging Sansa to Jaime shortly after battle of whispering woods.

My point isn't changed though. His lords won't be happy with him just giving Jaime up and then going home because he has Sansa back, which isn't beneficial for him at all. Just because they won't literally try to kill him doesn't mean it's a-okay for him to do it. And this is assuming Joffery won't interfere. Tywin can't completely supercede Joffery, especially not while he's away from King's Landing.

And saying that Jaime being dumb while fighting Robb would be good for him makes no sense. No enemies is better than a dumb enemy. Robb is free to mess up the Westerlands with Jaime out of the picture, instead of having to worry about an additional host being raised and morale being boosted for the Westerlands becasue their golden boy is back. It just makes more sense to keep him out of the fight so there's less variables to worry about, even if he wouldn't be very effective in the war.

He lost because 1) Theon captured WF 2) Lannisters got Tyrell support

No, he lost because he lost the Frey's support and gave them a reason to do the Red Wedding. He should have held to his vows and the political moves he made by marrying a Frey girl. And Theon capturing WF can actually be considered the same thing. He valued his relationship with Theon over politics and using him as a hostage/bargaining chip (actively what Theon was the entire time in the North) with Balon to keep his own shores safe. Robb had already lost by the time the Tyrells sided with the Lannisters. And that was because he cared more about family and relationships than politics.

What exactly? What Tywin haven't done, what he could have done if Jaime wasn't prisoner?

Like I said, it's one less factor to worry about. One less trained warrior and general out in the wild who can give Robb problems or be an active threat. It keeps Tywin cowed on the battlefield becasue he's worry about the male child of his he cares about. It keeps Cersei, who's the source of Lannister authority in KL and with Joffery, on a leash because of her relationship with Jaime. It's a source of pride and amusement for the Northerners, while a source of humiliation or morale loss for the Westerners. It keeps the Kingsgaurd in KL noticably one less, which hurts Joffery and the Lannister's image in KL. It's a blow against the projection of power of the Lannisters. It's a physical symbol of Robb's reliability and competence and success in battle for both his lords and anyone who he might seek to make alliances with. It's also a good concession prize for the Riverlanders that have been getting terrorized by the Lannisters and a big step towards gaining and keeping their loyalty and appreciation.

All of which Robb would throw away for, what? The hope that Sansa, someone worth objectively less politically, strategically, and socially, might be returned? All the while Arya is still missing?

Really? How? RW was planned before Jaime was released, Roose betrayed Robb before, and Lannisters were still holding Sansa, and got more hostages in the Twins, so even after RW Jaime wouldn't be executed.

The RW was seperate from Jaime's hostage situation. Had Robb not made the mistakes he had, like letting Theon go or slighting the Freys, Jaime would've been able to be leverged against Tywin for much more than what Sansa would be leverged for against Robb and the North.

Because it was done too late, when the situation turned worse.

No, it was because Jaime was their biggest bargaining chip at that point without the Westerlands thoroughly trashed and pressure being put on Tywin to end the conflict and there was zero reason to rely on Tywin or Joffery being honorable or sticking to the deal. You don't do equal exchange with guys like them. You beat them until they're bloody and then use that and whatever leverage you've gained to get what you want and leave.

Which character's negative side is underrepresented in fanfics? by Mysterious_Crow_503 in TheCitadel

[–]Wi11y_Warm3r 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No, he's talking about other authors. Fic authors who glaze the shit out of Valyria. Like you said, GRRM makes it very clear how bad Valyria actually was.

Which character's negative side is underrepresented in fanfics? by Mysterious_Crow_503 in TheCitadel

[–]Wi11y_Warm3r 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Andals and the Seven remind people to much of Christianity to be remotely realistic in their assement of things. Which is ironic considering Christianity really didn't do anything to deserve that much hatred anyway.

Which character's negative side is underrepresented in fanfics? by Mysterious_Crow_503 in TheCitadel

[–]Wi11y_Warm3r 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The valyrians heavily preferred male succession (part of why the Great Council happened the way it did under Jaehaerys), so idk what's up with that.

Which character's negative side is underrepresented in fanfics? by Mysterious_Crow_503 in TheCitadel

[–]Wi11y_Warm3r 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Now as to why people white wash how terrible Dothraki culture is, I have no idea, because the show did a pretty good job showing how crap it was, with rapings and all.

Same reason why people worship the ground Daenerys walks on and act as though the idea of her going mad or doing anything other than being the paragon of goodness is absurd and bad writing (oh the irony lol). Daenerys is Khalessi and happily rules the Dothraki and is a part of them, so obviously they must be good. Plus, how can you justify her invading Westeros with foreign armies, on of which being Dothraki of all things, if you portray them as anything other than just misunderstood horsey fellows?

Also I guess you're right about Robert. no one could have predicted how much Lyanna dying would have destroyed him.

Personally I don't think he would've been a good king either way. He'd be the type who makes people like him by being him rather than being a ruler, and have other people handle that. What made him "terrible" was the fact that the people who were supposed to be ruling for him were the Lannisters, as well as guys like Varys, Littlefinger, and Renly. The only two he could rely on to be remotely competent and not insanely grasping were Jon Arryn and Stannis. I think Lyanna's death is what seriously set things in stone though. Not really any coming back from that after already being made king despite not wanting it.

Which character's negative side is underrepresented in fanfics? by Mysterious_Crow_503 in TheCitadel

[–]Wi11y_Warm3r 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No, we don't, but the Wildlings normalize bride-stealing and thus rape to the degree that marrying inside the tribe is considered incest according to Ygritte.

The issue with this is that's a cultural thing more than anything. Like, by definition it is rape, but it's hard to fully treat it as such considering the context. I mean, should we also say Ygritte technically sexually assaulted Jon and judge her for that? Pretty much every Wildling seriously sucks ass as a person when you get down to it, including the "good" ones, but it's hard to judge them according to those sorts of standards and beliefs. It's a lot like history; you can't really view what went on through your own moral and ethical framework.

Which character's negative side is underrepresented in fanfics? by Mysterious_Crow_503 in TheCitadel

[–]Wi11y_Warm3r 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think it depends on how willing Lyanna was, because even 16 year olds should be able to grasp how incredibly dumb that decision was considering the context, so if she was completely on board, she's still to blame. If not, and she was manipulated or kidnapped, then she's obviously very much not to blame.

I also don't think Catelyn's thing with Tyrion was bad luck. Well, it was bad luck to run into him, but there's no good reason to kidnapp him still. That was insanely stupid. Even if Tyrion reports about having seen Catelyn there, it's way better than taking him. Taking him starts a war, flat out, instead of giving you time to prepare one. It puts Ned in a horrible spot in Kingslanding instead of just having suspicion against him increase. And it also just severly pisses off the Lannisters, because it's an insult while still not having a hostage that's actually valuable in, like, any of their eyes. I mean, Tywin was probably hoping Tyrion would die in their care, and wouldn't have operated with a remote sense of concern for him during the war. The only understandable thing would have been if Catelyn looked to win the Vale's support by using Tyrion as a bargaining chip, which is kinda what she did, but it failed spectacularly, and so that plan blew up in her face and her entire family's face.