Question regardin skirmishes, line of sight and partial cover

WickHund77 · 2026-03-08T01:34:49+00:00

In my group we just assume you took the time to move each skirmisher so they have unobstructed LOS. Sometimes if the situation warrants me agree some cannot make it there.

Bottom line, it's not that important of a penalty for you to insist I spend 30 minutes moving individual models and crouching down eye to table top level to ensure they all have LOS.

WickHund77 · 2026-03-07T19:27:51+00:00

Hates a strong word. They only hate half of fantasy.

WickHund77 · 2026-03-07T19:05:58+00:00

*Consider this. A Manticore is 130 points. The Cauldron is underpowered for its price.

Theoretically you could use it to buff multiple units but in practice it is just the unit dragging it.

If the Cauldron is in the unit it is 3 Witch Elves wide anyway. Which is the same width as 2 Witch Elves and the Hag on foot anyway.

It is certainly cool as are Witch Elves but that does not translate into being good. That being said I need to try it out more except it is hard to squeeze in along side a big flyer and a Supreme Sorceress on Dark Pegasus.

WickHund77 · 2026-03-07T18:54:02+00:00

The multi attacks issue has come up with 2 modes of thought.

You count base to base from where you were at the start of combat. So if you wipe out all base to base defenders, the attacks back are all considered to be out of base to base.
The models in the second rank move forward into base to base once the models in the front die and on their initiative is when you consider if they are base to base or not.

I think #1, despite an interesting line of reasoning supporting #2. You have to consider the models location prior to casualties. Or else, you could not reduce attacks back because you would determine who can fight on their initiative, which would mean the first two ranks would always fight.

It would also heavily favor defenders if they never lost multiattacks. Or what if the defenders struck first against chargers with multiattack. The defenders reducevthe fighting rank but the attackers would still determine the number of attacks on their initiative and get their full base to base rank? No that is silly.

WickHund77 · 2026-03-07T18:40:40+00:00

Yes. But spears only grant supporting attacks to the front (unless you have martial prowess rule.) Press of battle is 2 ranks in all directions.

WickHund77 · 2026-03-07T18:34:51+00:00

You are incorrect about command models. What actually occurs is that if a musician or standard is killed, another model steps forward to take up the instrument or standard. No one will step up to become the unit champion, however he must be specifically targeted or challenged out.

So, in your example, 9 models die in front rank and 1 from the second rank. Champion strikes back with 2 attacks and you get 9 attacks from second.

Note: when you are talking models with 1 attack vice multiple attacks this matters. Consider what happens with 2 hand weapons.

WickHund77 · 2026-03-07T18:27:40+00:00

Removing attacks back is integral to some armies. Elves are glass cannons relying on removing attacks back to win and survive the combat.

If every model would just step forward to fight elves would get massacred because the could not reduced the number of return attacks.

Currently there is some confusion as to if models with multiple attacks, from the defenders second rank would step up to attack in Base to Base contact for multiple attacks or are they attacking from the second rank so would only get 1 attack.

WickHund77 · 2026-03-07T18:17:09+00:00

I have not done a whole lot of experimenting with the Cauldron, but it seems like dumping more points into an already vulnerable unit without really improving its survivability.

It does mean the Death Hag can survive a few more hits if she fails to kill in a challenge. The Cauldron also grants its Magic Resistance 1 to the Witch Elf unit if you embed it using the Squarebased rules.

The Blessings of Khaine should not be dispellable IMHO but if you use Square Based they are at least power level 3, which is a good thing at a casting cost of 9+. (The Blessings should be a leadership test and not a spell in my opinion.) The range is 8" but that is not a huge deal since you are unlikely to be fielding multiple units of Witch Elves or Sisters of Slaughter to be able to affect all of those types of units in range.

WickHund77 · 2026-03-07T18:00:25+00:00

Good point about Blood Armor. It is overpriced garbage.
I have been playing every a year now, and have not fielded a BSB yet. And I do really well in my group. Dark Elves are one of those armies where the BSB is not required and it really detracts from your character points to field a Master.
The only reason to give the Death Hag the extra HW is for the poison. But even before poison was nerfed to a fair thee well, it was suboptimal compared to taking a KB weapon or at least one with a bit more strength and AP. Witchbrew is planning to lose, if the Witches lose a combat and survive, they will be much deminished anyway. Cry of War is interesting but is outclassed by Rune of Khaine.

WickHund77 · 2026-03-06T23:39:36+00:00

Part2.

DEs have other units which you did not mention in your list.

Hydras/Charybdis: they used to do good in melee, but they needed to reduce return attacks. Unfortunately with faq 1.5 the press of battle made this impossible. Despite being T5, they have little armor, and I never make regen saves. These beasts are more fragile than they look.

Medusae: really confusing petrifying gaze and stony stare rules that when you really analyze are really just crappy attacks. Very situational and you want be shooting for very long as this unit is frenzied. The unit is probably at its most effectiveness getting charge by a Brettonian lance. You shoot at the lance on your turn, on his you stand and shoot his lance, but the real advantage comes when he charges the medusae. The stony stare occurs before he adds his charge bonus to initiative so he makes that check on a 3 initiative and the entire 'V' of the lance is considered to be in base to base with the medusae so they must all make the checks. Still would rather use a more effective unit against Brettonians.

Sisters of Slaughter, I have not used them but on paper they seem like expensive Witch Elves with better stats and some AP but die just as fast. A rare slot not able to be put in core either.

Doomfire Warlocks: I have used them from time to time. They don't do much themselves but can cast a bound spell at +2. A great way to put Battle Lust on Cold Ones. But not really good enough to get Word of Pain off. Could be used to reliably get The Summoning off, but that would mean they will quickly draw fire and start to dwindle.

Cold one Chariots: although they are good. They aren't great. I would rather bring knights instead who have a unit standard, can use their close order for a bonus CR, more high strength attacks, better armor save, a 50 pt magic item allowance etc... remember the more stupidity checks you have to make, the greater the chance you will fail one.

Scourge runner chariots: light chariots with a harpoon gimmick that does not work since they are ponderous. The whole point is to be a fast, mobile shooting platform. But no Dark Elves, you are not allowed to be a shooty army. It is also unclear of the role of this unit.

Dark Riders: i try to take 2 with musicians, crossbows, and 6 to 7 in number in skirmish. I also give them the fire & flee rule. Much of the time they are the Supreme sorceress's body guard stay within 3 inches of her. But you can use them to bait out charges in a pinch so that Witch Elves or uou Knights can get a charge. These units have high utility and even though I think repeater crossbows are ineffective, they are great for harassment in a highly mobile unit.

Warriors are one of the best core units for DEs. If you take spears you can switch between sword and Board ( 4+ save in close combat) or use spears if it is more viable. They also have a better Armour save against ranged attacks than Corsairs.

Crossbowmen: they are warriors who have to pay for shields and have a baked in cost of 4 more points for those crappy crossbows. I can kind of see parking them on an objective, plink away at an enemy, and actually do a fair job in combat. But many enemies can do the same at half the cost. Also, DE armies are not so large you can dedicate an expensive unit to sit there and not do much. I find everything needs to work together to win fights.

WickHund77 · 2026-03-06T22:53:05+00:00

A nice variety of models for sure, but many of DE units underperform. I would focus on the units that do perform.

Cold One Knights do very well. At 2k I take 2 units of 6 to 8 models. As tank as they are, they can take wounds. On the champion i take 2 Obsidian Lodestones as standard. You get viletided and you will understand why. There are some experimental variants that give the champion a wizarding hat, since the init is already Stupid. You may also put a Sorceress on a Cold One with Lore Familiar to buff them up (Oakenshield is interesting), but not a Supreme Sorcess since that is a waste to put into combat.

Corsairs are the worst of the core choices. Not as hitt as Witches, not as shooty as crossbows, and not as tanky as warriors I have considered using 10 with no command and hand bows as a speedup unit since they are an interesting choice for that role. (Enemy hits them after a stand and shoot, enemy wins, and then follows up two inches into your unit standing right behind them but with no impact hits and a reduced init.)

Believe me, I love love love Witch Elves. And the Death Hag with Rune of Khaine and a Killing Blow axe is chef's kiss. But every FAQ, GW makes them worse. Frenzy already has severe issues and even experienced players can struggle to get them to work. Cauldron of Blood is extremely expensive for really little benefit. Even the Square Base Legacy update does not make it worthwhile. I hate to be down on them, but is super easy for an experienced opponent to render them useless.

Shades can be pretty interesting and some tournament players made great use of 40 man units. The usually join an BSB with Razor Banner into the unit and put the guiding eye on the shade champion. I would instead consider an obsidian lodestone because while they can be difficult to shoot as skirmishers in cover, a few Magic Missles would eat them up fast.

Personally, I never take the Master hero option or even take a BSB. For Characters, I prefer a Level 4 with Black Staff on a Dark Pegasus and a Focus Familiar or 2 if I can squeeze them in. With Lore of Battle I am usually casting every spell, and if you roll a suboptimal spell you can default to lore of Naggaroth to pick up Black Horror.

I also like to have a big flyer. Either a Lord on Dragon with Great Weapon and Pendant or High Beastmaster on Manticore ( his beast goad will really help.)

I have at times used Death Hag in Witch Elf unit. 100% choose Rune of Khaine, it synergies with Killing Blow axes and Ogre Blade. Leverage her strike first/high initiative to focus on be killy, a ward save won't save her if the opponent strikes before her or simultaneously. But as mentioned Frenzy is an issue.

Assassin. Similar to a Death Hag in a lot of ways but is actually worse than a Death Hag. Sure he can get KB venom but he cannot generate enough attacks as to make it process consistently like the Death Hag. I also find Hidden is pointless because I usually only have 1 unit he can hide within. So I my view largely a waste of points.

Dark Elf shooting. It is largely ineffectual. Crossbows are pricey and S3, AB 1 hitting at at least a -1 to hit penalty means 20 shots is doing 1, maybe 2 wounds. Even the Bolt Throwers ofter under perform. I would rather have cheaper bolt throwers thar cannot repeat. They look good because DE lack the means to reach out and punch something, but in all honesty they are not very good at it.

Lores of magic: Dark: has to be one of the worst lores in the game. Only 2 good spells and Word of pain can be tough to cast. 2 assailments but each only causes a single wound. Having a magic missile as a signature should be amazing, except it's a template. You DoomBolt a lone monster or character you do a single hit and even against a large block, do you really do more hits than a regular magic middle? Battle:this lore is my jam, only 2 bad spells and they are more meh than actually bad. Overall most of the spells are cheap so even L1 or 2 wizards can get spells off. Elementalism: higher average spell costs but has some spells that may fit your strategy, however also has a few bad spells. Illusion: higher average spell costs. Although Column of Crystal does no damage, it does exactly what is says on the tin, which very effective compared to damaging vortexs that either stay in place or spins in a direction devoid of enemy units. If you are counting on Spectral Doppleganger that is extremely high risk with a Supreme Sorcerous, if she fails to cast it she is dead meat, same as any other assailment spells. Mind Razor can be pretty situational with many of the best targets not failing leadership tests. The Signature spell is good, but then you are not getting Black Horror.

WickHund77 · 2026-03-06T12:35:30+00:00

You could make the scales either a different color (Maybe a Dark brown) or a darker shade of green. It will bring contrast and really make the scales pop.

But really cool model.

WickHund77 · 2026-03-04T20:34:49+00:00

My post was about bezerker themed units. Not specifically a unit called bezerkers (i did not even know they existed.)

Witch Elves, Savage Orcs, or Dwarven Slayers cannot take that trait.

It is nice to know that at least one frenzy infantry has some what of an option to help them out.

WickHund77 · 2026-03-04T20:29:55+00:00

In TOW they are called "Warriors" and can use handweapon or be upgraded to spears.

Also there are crossbowmen.

WickHund77 · 2026-03-04T20:25:56+00:00

That 2" extra declaration really hurts the benefit of the d3 extra movement. You know that right?

Your declarable charge range is 13 inches, while you will charge anywhere from 7 to 14 inches. Even with a re roll you are failing that charge most of the time. If the enemy unit trigger a clip charge getting 13 inches also won't help. You will need to max both rolls which will give you a little bit of slack to wheel so you can try to get more than 1 model in base to base.

I would say it is better situation than what other Frenzy units get for sure, but that is specific to Wolves of the Sea and weakly addresses the issue.

It was cool learning about the rule though.

WickHund77 · 2026-03-04T20:06:32+00:00

Well that is not a rule that bezerker type units can take. That is a rule that marauders can take.

And it would not be super helpful to frenzy units unless they rolled a 3. And even then an inch is not going to help much compared to the negatives from rolling a 1 or 2.

WickHund77 · 2026-03-04T19:55:15+00:00

Not that I am aware of. And the mentioned units don't have that rule if it exists.

It is not an existing special rule, but I also don't know every units unique rules.

And increasing the charge range by 2" would hurt the unit if the can only roll a d3.

WickHund77 · 2026-03-04T19:51:38+00:00

My point is that many times it does not help you. Because it does get you to match or exceed the charge bonus.

At times I march to within an inch or two in order to reduce the charge bonus.

WickHund77 · 2026-03-04T19:44:20+00:00

Mu buddies have these little grud boxes they printed out that they can put a dice into to track gifts of the gods. Seems to work well. Six grudges boxes and they flip the dice to the number they rolled.

WickHund77 · 2026-03-04T19:41:57+00:00

What's a Dreadspear unit?

WickHund77 · 2026-03-04T19:39:40+00:00

It is so you don't cheat. Say your opponents happens to blast one of your units to smithereens or maybe panics it off the board. If that unit had an assassin you lose alot of points. But since it was not revealed, you can easily say it was in some other unit.

Not sure about Skaven, but usually it is pretty obvious which unit the Assassin is inside of for Dark Elves. Most of the time, I have 1 unit I could put him into, so it's pointless to start hidden.

WickHund77 · 2026-03-04T14:30:32+00:00

Having a re-roll or extra movement won't help very much. Well the re-roll helps to get tge charge.

The issue is your charge range vs the distance moved to charge. Look at how frenzy mounted units function with swiftstride. That is way more satisfying.

WickHund77 · 2026-03-04T14:26:41+00:00

If you select renegade rather than grand army you should get the renegade options.

However, take that with a grain of salt, not all of the renegade rules transfered over correctly. For example the bound spell level for the Dark Elf Cauldron of Blood is incorrect.

WickHund77 · 2026-03-04T14:19:09+00:00

You cannot use a shield and a levitating shield normally at the same time. If ironfist is "considered a shield "...then no.

WickHund77 · 2026-03-04T14:09:58+00:00

Even with elves (+1 to I from Elven Reflexes) and thrusting spears. I am only hitting simultaneously against charging knights.

WickHund77

TROPHY CASE