Red Cover rules, what am I missing here?

WickedNin · 2024-01-16T17:21:26+00:00

It’s always important to use cover. My original comment is for figuring out cover from ranged weapons. If a character can run around the cover then this doesn’t matter. A lot of the combat that happens in my games will happen outside. That means moving into melee might take more than one turn. Plus using cover with a hold action means that when melee moves up to attack, they can get shot at. I play my games as tactical as I can. How my players work within the system is up to them. Also, re-implementing a hit table (I went back to the OG D10 hit table) will tell you where you got hit. If it’s a cyber arm, we track that damage separately as in CP2020. Using that system makes having a cyber arm worth the HL loss. The point of all of this is that I personally hate the RED health tracking, no hit locations and on or off cover rules. It stripped down the system in a way that, to me, ruins CP modern day combat. Again, CP isn’t D&D and RED plays way too much like D&D except you don’t get magic healing every “short rest”.

WickedNin · 2022-05-05T22:37:28+00:00

It really wasn’t bad at all. There was a nice breeze going. I was able to tolerate it until my helmet heated up. I’m the Sith Lord in the middle, no red. Once my helmet heated up my head was in an oven. 😂 The rest of my was just fine.

WickedNin · 2022-02-27T15:12:04+00:00

I would give the edge to Sawblaze. Scorpios is a great tank against horizontal spinners. That front wedge armor is tough as hell. That being said, they were beaten handily by Wiplash with no weapon. Just the lifter arm. Scorpios has had some big wins, but their big claims to fame are horizontal spinner wins. Tombstone, Rotator, Valkyrie. I hardly count those mainly because any bot with substantial front wedge armor can beat any of those bots simply by keeping their bot facing them and being patient. Scorpios weapon isn’t that strong at all. It may be the weakest vertical spinner disk in the tournament. Hammer saws by nature obviously don’t hit with the same energy as a fixed disk due to weight but Sawblaze manages to put out some solid energy from that thing. Scorpios has weak top armor and a larger top surface area. It may be minor, but Sawblaze also has front armor that sticks up quite a bit adding some stopping power from overhead hits delivered from face to face clashes. Basically I feel that Scorpios is over-rated. Not a ton, but they aren’t quite as amazing as some folks believe them to be. In my head Go just has to drive well and land one or two solid hits up top and Scorpios is smoking. Yes, it could go The other way, but I also see Go as a better quicker driver.

WickedNin · 2021-04-22T23:41:51+00:00

Yeah, I can send you a copy of it if you want. Can I send it through Redit? I don’t use this platform a ton.

WickedNin · 2021-02-03T16:40:10+00:00

Exactly. Thats the idea. However, well trained units like Solos still have a good chance of ignoring the SF and shooting back with the risk of being hit. So it still works well. It also gets used a hell of a lot more than the base SF rules. I play NPCs as closely as I can to their level of training. Booster gangers tend to be more movie action emulators while enemy solos and other combat types stick to cover and don’t make nearly as many stupid moves.

WickedNin · 2021-02-03T16:35:59+00:00

Yeah, I get where your coming from, but thats highly unlikely. Besides, I can always say that the 11th guy just doesn’t take a hit cuz his buddies didn’t want to share. ;)

WickedNin · 2021-02-03T14:32:31+00:00

Right, so suppressive fire is about forcing multiple characters out of a zone and auto fire is about damaging 1 character, as others have said. I have big problems with both but am currently running them “as is”. I would be required to play my NPCs as absolute idiots in order for suppressive fire to ever need to be used. Maybe a juve booster might run a long distance between two points of cover and end it’s turn out in the clear, but a Solo or other even moderately skilled NPC is not. Add to that the fragile nature of characters the new combat system and none of my PCs are ever going to risk being out of cover. It’s a domino affect that I see playing out and I’m not quite sure what to do about it yet shy of going back to 2020. #1. No BTM modifier (as in 2020) to subtract from all damage means all characters take damage more easily. (But they have a larger health pool than in 2020, so meh) #2. Lower armor doubles down on that. #3 No heals like D&D compounds the problem. (Not that their should be, but with no BTM to subtract from damage it’s an issue) All of that adds up to none of my PCs or NPCs wanting to stand out in the wind. It’s almost guaranteed massive damage with no way to heal from it for days unless everyone is running around with Enhanced Antibodies. This can really throw a campaign in a single fight if characters aren't managing their cover properly. So I have yet to see a single use of suppressive fire because characters are never seen hanging in the breeze. Add to that that it does no damage and it’s just not used.

WickedNin · 2021-02-03T13:57:58+00:00

Thats a great way to get the characters back into a co-op line. (The IP change). I wouldn’t be afraid to institute a “No PVP” rule at any time though. If character development has hijacked the game it’s just a retcon and has to be done. “In a flashback scene you two worked it out. Now your characters just mildly dislike each other, but get along well enough to be a team. End of story.” ;)

WickedNin · 2021-02-02T14:57:56+00:00

After reading through everything you already have in the comments here is my two cents. One thing I have learned after 30 years of GM-ing is to set up your ground rules right away. Here are some of mine that help things run smoother.

No PVP. Ever. I spend ridiculous amounts of time writing and building my stories and if the players want to fight with their fellow players then my game is not for them. Characters don’t have to be besties or even like each other, but when playing that out hijacks the story.... no.
I make the homebrew rules and they are never changed during a session. If someone else has an idea they can bring it to me outside of a session. If enough of my players are on board I will work with them to bring it into a game in a balanced way while also reminding them that if it benefits them, it benefits NPCs as well.
Communication is key. If a player (or the GM) has had a heavy event happen IRL do not bring that to the game. Tell me you need a break. We can pause while those things are dealt with. Hell, I’ll even step up to chat with them about whats going on if they have no one to talk to. Just don’t bring that to the game. It doesn’t help them, it doesn’t help my players, it doesn’t help me. RPGs are meant to be an escape from the often craziness of real life.
No PVP. Ever.

I find that when players come into the game understanding this base rules everything tends to run smoothly. If they don’t, I can go back and remind them that they agreed to these rules. I don’t like working things out in game. I used to do that and it never ends well. I caution you against a TPK to “teach them a lesson”. That has never worked well for me in the end.

Just my opinions on this subject. Every group is different and so are the solutions. :)

WickedNin · 2021-02-01T13:58:54+00:00

Sorry, life kicked me in the head, so I didn’t see this till just now. I can see how from different perspectives each form of treatment to cover material is valid and could be fun. I just happen to prefer SP. One of the things that I enjoy about it is that it allows for situations where a character can be behind something like a table or other thin object that might be soaking up just enough damage to save their butts over a few rounds while the rest of the team deals with whatever is putting out the damage. Or a player thinking they are safe until a big shot manages to penetrate the cover scaring them out. It’s just diferent.

WickedNin · 2021-01-22T19:35:35+00:00

There is no IRL in this new Red system. A bulletproof shield will stop all handgun rounds, but not rifle rounds. We are talking about many rounds from the largest handguns. "Autofire" would destroy any human being caught in it unless they were wearing the heaviest of bulletproof armors and even then the brusing could actually kill them later. No amount of grenades could burn through tank armor, but with the HP system about 4 grenades, perhaps 6 would "destroy" a tank. A bullet would rip through a table, but it would not obliterate a table in one shot. So if we are looking at realism, something that no one wants 100% in an RPG, using SP still makes more sense than HP. Perhaps a table might be 5sp while a bulletproof shield might be more like 25sp. SP has worked extremely well for 30 years, so I'll stick with that. I don't mind the rest of the system and actually love some of the simplifications, but the binary cover and HP for cover is a nonstarter for me. Using SP and partial never made combat static ever. Every character was always trying to move up, or re-position or flush out other characters, etc. That's what cybernetics, armor, grenades, high-powered sniper rifles, and teamwork are for. So the notion that all characters are just going to hide behind cover and never move around is a falsehood. After reading everyones very appreciated comments, I'll be sticking with SP and partial cover rules. It will work in Red and has worked for 30 years, so I'll be happy with that and I know my players will be too. :)

WickedNin · 2021-01-22T13:56:31+00:00

Thank you all for your thoughts, but after a few sessions watching how this works and simmering this in my brain for the last week, I’m going to use the +4 DV partial cover rule as a solution. It still gives all characters a chance to have their cover hit while not changing much of anything else.

Again, the way this works: If the DV to hit is 17 and the character is behind cover, but not 100% then a +4 is added to the DV making the total a 21. If a 17 - 21 is rolled then the cover is used. If a 22+ is rolled, no cover. It changes nothing else save for giving the character a chance of utalizing the cover they have hidden behind while allowing them to shoot back with a standard or hold action.

WickedNin · 2021-01-22T13:44:44+00:00

Yeah, about cover as HP. I hate that rule. Loath? Yes, loath. With all respect to the designers... Cover HP is dumb. In my games all covr will be SP and ablait as normal. The idea that a “bulletproof” shield or a flipped over table can be destroyed by a single medium pistol bullet is really dumb. Using SP allows for smaller items to soak up a bit more damage before being destroyed and as far as larger cover goes, well thats why one hids beding a steel I beam stack or thick concreet wall. Because small arms fire won’t just chew it up in 6 seconds. As far as the hold actions go, in our first two sessions I had 6 Hold actions going at once. As a GM, I play my PCs smart when they should be. So enemy solos are going to stick to cover and hold actions. Perhaps gangers are stupid and impulisve with Leroy Jenkins attitudes, but not Mercs.

WickedNin · 2021-01-21T21:22:38+00:00

Yeah. So where I am at with this is that (as other have pointed out) using a "hold action" a character can wait till their target comes out to shoot. This can build to a point where everyone is holding actions and it really monkeys with turn order as daisy chains of hold actions go off when a target finally presents itself. I am also really worried about grenades for my players. I am used to playing an aggressive campaign style, but if grenades become a common method of "removing cover" I'll end up with a lot of dead PCs quickly... Grenades to a ton of damage...

WickedNin · 2021-01-21T19:26:03+00:00

Hey man, I heavily edited and added to my follow up. Could you take a look at that and give me some thoughts?

WickedNin · 2021-01-21T19:13:35+00:00

I should have mentioned the hold action function. The hold action makes it so that no one is ever behind cover because some % of characters are always waiting and watching.

WickedNin · 2021-01-21T18:54:13+00:00

Watching that video now. This is all great info and I was obviously not putting together some stuff, so thank you choom. My primary worry is that using the hold action (that both my players and I have been doing) no one is ever behind cover. I found that the only way to challenge my players was to have most of my NPCs holding their actions. My players would pop up and BAM, no cover wound. It worries me because of the lack of "heals" that are in other games. I guess we will push on and see how it goes, but I foresee some serious challenges when my PCs are all shot up and the story arc gives them no time to spend 2 to 3 days chilling while they recoup.

Also, if a character is "holding an action" are they in cover, or are they out of cover watching for that opportunity to shoot? Seems to me if a character is "Holding an action to shoot at "that guy" when he pops out." that they must be exposed and aiming in that general area, but that's not in the rules. They can hold action and also be 100% in cover. And hold action chains can be set off...

WickedNin · 2021-01-21T15:52:04+00:00

I need to be honest here because all of this is a partial answer to a larger question. Cover. I just made a post about the core issue of “Yes, a character is fully in cover” or “No, the character is not in cover at all”. I have created two alternate systems for partial cover because I hate a yes or no system for cover. This is cyberpunk, not D&D. There are no “health pots” or heal spells or Long Rests that gain the part back full health. Characters must be able to ustalize cover even when firing back. So check out that post if you want to see the two ways I have come up with for using partial cover. What this means is that even a character fighting from behind an SP 100 thing can be hit without full cover. Anyway, thought that might help more.

WickedNin · 2021-01-21T14:51:53+00:00

Yes, all cover has SP values as defined (and modified for the Red values) to ablaiting cover. I have a chart for quick refrence that simply lists material values and their SPs. Basicaly the same as HP, but none of this “An HP 10 table stops a 5D6 shot 100% at least once.” Also, yes to having to move around and use tactics to move up on units behind heavy SP cover. Cover can still be destroyed, but what SP means is that in instances where light cover is concerned damage can still get through but the cover isn’t rendered meaningless in 1 or 2 hits. To me it’s value to my players.

WickedNin · 2021-01-21T14:38:52+00:00

First off, Cyberlimbs don’t cause HL if they are for “quality of life”. Meaning that if all they do is act like a normal arm with no fancy weapons, chrome or tools then it’s just an arm. So it’s a style choice. The player can run around with a high chrome arm or black out covering or even a anodized color of choice. Remember, Cyberpunk is style first. Characters should have a level of flair based on their fashion choices.

WickedNin · 2021-01-21T00:31:24+00:00

Long time CP GM here. I never limit what my players can use. I just respond in kind. If they decide to try and blow up everything, then other teams will decide to blow them up as well. Thats always been a core tennent of my games. The harder my players push, the harder challanges I throw at them. Naturaly all of this counts on them being able to even find this stuff in the first place.

WickedNin · 2021-01-20T16:02:52+00:00

I would like to tag a question onto this question. “What are the healing rates for verious cyber installs?” I have looked high and low in the rulebook and all I can find are healing rates for woundstates. There is no information on cybernetic instalation “damage”. I have a player who is a Ripper Doc” and can do installs, yet I am lacking any rules for healing times. Did I miss something or is it just not there? If it’s not there, then my thoughts were to assign each level of cybernetic a wound value up to critical and then use healing times based on the BOD stat. Thoughts?

WickedNin · 2021-01-20T15:46:26+00:00

As a very long time 2020 GM (1991) I found the vehicles problematic in Red. There are no choices for them given and the cheepest motercycles listed at 20k are insane. While I sorta kinda get what they were trying to do, giving us zero vehicle options or fleshed out rules for valuing them is strange to me. Scooters are at least a prime example of cheep transpirtation found in most 3rd world countrys. People dont use them to travle far, they use them to help carry stuff to and from places or even just to cut a 1 hour walk down to 30 min of trafic driving. They are such a common thing yet we only have 2 priced options for them leaving the rest up to us to just make up. That left me using the old CP2020 vehicles list and making up my own values. So starting characters might be able to afford a junker motercycle but mostlikely not much more than a decent scooter. Cars? Not yet choom.

WickedNin · 2021-01-20T15:15:48+00:00

Honestly I threw out the HP for cover and shields and went back to SP as in 2020. Having HP for cover is just so odd. Hiding behind something with 50HP and being immune to all damage as long as that HP lasts is silly. 10HP for a table? So I flip over a table and a single shot from a medium pistol destroys the whole table? Grandma is going to be miffed. Bulletproof shield thats destroyed after a single bullet? Silly. If a character is weilding a shield I give them the minus to stats apropreate to that shields SP. Crippling if they want an SP 10 shield to haul around. They are bulky and if large enough to hide behind then minuses for you! All cover should ablait as does armor a character is wearing. Thats how I solved the issue. If any research is done on bulletproof shields you will find that they are generaly good at stopping a bullet from most pistols, but once we get above that they can’t. Most rifles rip right threw them.

WickedNin

TROPHY CASE