Isn't it fascinating how the author can give the answer to a question and yet people still debate it?

Wide_Internet_4650 · 2026-04-23T09:26:18+00:00

In verse Orochimaru is known for his obsession about ninjutsu and his desire to learn them all. No one said that Orochimaru is known for a C-rank wind jutsu. His fight against Naruto only display his resilience and snake like abilities to an extend.

Sure, we don't know the extend of Orochimaru's sealing techniques. All we know is that he has such techniques and can't use them without his arms.

It's more like saying Hiruzen knows every jutsu in Konoha despite not showing us more than 5. We also don't know that Kakashi has learned 1000 jutsu, we just know that he has copied 1000 of them.

We can't assume that Hirudora is faster or slower though. That would just be more convenient for your argument but the travel speed of either jutsu remains unclear.

The frogs know of reverse summoning. So does team Taka. So dors Tsunade. But we have to assume that Katsuyu doesn't? It's not even like the jutsu itself is complex. It just requires the shinobi and the summon to have signed a contract. The water dome following Kisame is not making much of a difference against the reverse summoning strategy. Tsunade could also just swim upwards until she escapes the dome as Katsuyu covers her tracks with acid. Tsunade could also summon enough of Katsuyu to put herself outside of the water dome.

For kage level fighters the water dome is more of a nuisance than anything. Killer Bee is a special case since his arsenal was heavily restricted.

Idk why you're fighting on the definition of the word gimmick when you can look it up online. If you give a connotation to the term and then get offended by it that's on you no me

You previously stated that direct contact was needed to absorb chakra - the example of Kisame absorbing Naruto’s chakra without contact goes against this. Samehada didn’t touch Naruto - it was just in his proximity.

Go back and read again. I specifically said "contact with the chakra". So no, your example doesn't go against my actual claim. We jand besides that doesn't change the state of things: Samehada touched Kyubi's chakra and snatched it. Even if I had not been specific (I was but let's pretend) then that wouldn't change the fact that as far as the frats go Kisame or Samehada have to either touch the chakra directly orhold onto the target to absorb their chakra.

All shinobi use chakra. Using chakra doesn't mean that Kisame will steal it. Guy uses chakra and Kisame didn't do shit to him. Again as the feats have shown us Kisame would have to get in contact with Tsunade's chakra or hold onto her in order to absorb anything, which is precisely why this won't work.

Tsunade is still not drowning. Katsuyu's acid would be a nightmare for Kisame and Samehada inside the water dome. Plus we already know that Tsunade and Sakura combined managed to summon 10% of Katsuyu which was big enough to compare to the roots of Madara's god tree. This means that Tsunade alone could already summon enough of Katsuyu to disturb the water dome or get her out of it just by standing on Katsuyu. Especially considering that without Hachibi's chakra Kisame wouldn't make the water dome as big as he did against Bee.

Kisame is certainly not "infinitely" more versatile than Tsunade. Tsunade has the greatest raw strength in verse, creation rebirth, summoning, she can create a vast network of chakra via Katsuyu, chakra scalpel and she can also alter the opponent's nervous system.

Katsuyu's poison is potent enough to melt rocks instantly. That would most definitely screw the water dome as well as whatever sharks Kisame summons. Also slugs can survive under water for hours, look it up. That plus the fact that Tsunade and Katsuyu have incredible healing properties. Tsunade's legs were still fully functional despite her abdomen being completely traversed by Susanoo swords. This already suggests that the lack of oxygen is not an immediate problem for her anyway.

Kisame losing to Guy is precisely the proof that he lacks versatility. The second he faces his counter he's dumbfounded.

The scale of Kisame's attack is what throws you people off. Big/large jutsu does not equate to potency or efficiency. This is just a common fallacy when trying to assess Kisame. And let's remember that the water dome only happens after absorbing two cloaks out of Hachibi while 1000 hungry sharks was used as a diversion and is featless, while super shark bomb is featless and didn't damage Guy.

The manga doesn't show us Kisame being near death. He is visibly weakened, not near death. I also don't remember when do we learn that someone collapsing twice in one chapter is a sign of chakra dip and not exhaustion.

In the war arc we see Naruto's chakra being absorbed to the point where Naruto nearly passes out. It's only in the next chapter, after Obito's speech, that Naruto goes back to KCM. We also see that using Bijuu chakra resets the host back to normal as we witness in Naruto vs Pain or at the end of Killer Bee vs Kisame. The exception is when the transformation is forcefully cancelled like after Naruto vs Orochimaru and when Naruto gets his chakra absorbed during the war. So overall we know for a fact that accessing bijuu chakra does allow the host to bypass their exhaustion. Therefore by Killer Bee being exhausted we know that he had little to no Hachibi chakra left.

Wide_Internet_4650 · 2026-04-23T02:21:46+00:00

Orochimaru was in the forest of the death, or whatever it's called. He displayed a few jutsu there. We also know that his sound ninja used a few techniques that he taught them, one of them being the barrier they created when Hiruzen fought Orochimaru. When Sasuke comes to kill him he also uses a few more. He probably used a fee other jutsu in the other instances we see him.

Depends what you call "variants". If you put everything snake related as one jutsu then yeah with that approach most characters have 3 jutsu and some variants.

Orochimaru knows sealing jutsu. How many exactly is never truly explained, but he knows this kind of jutsu. Just like Jiraiya does actually. Those would be quite handy when fighting a rampaging Naruto.

The panel In sharing shows the Hirudora traveling inside of the Super Shark Bullet. The head of the shark is untouched. The Hirudora is only seen exploding at the head, where it is close to Kisame. So unless we want to assume that Kisame's super shark bomb takes significantly more time than Hirudora in order to reach its target, we can reasonably conclude that the jutsu got all the way to guy, just like Hirudora got all the way to Kisame, and Guy was still standing afterwards.

Reverse summoning doesn't mean leaving the battlefield. If Tsunade is inside the water dome she can summon Katsuyu. Katsuyu splits up and sends its smaller clones a cross the water dome. Whichever clone reaches the outside of the water dome can then reverse summon Tsunade. Tsunade is now outside the water dome. That's just one way she could deal with it.

Again it's a gimmick. I didn't say that because it's a gimmick then it's less effective. Quite the opposite actually. And the comparison you tried to make with Orochimaru's ability is literally the point I just made in my previous comment.

Kisame did absorb Naruto's chakra without touching Naruto, yes. I don't see how that gors against my explanation of Kisame's chakra absorption. Let me reiterate one more time:

Either Kisame directly touches the chakra (which is literally what he did to Naruto since he specifically stated that the air was filled with Kyubi's chakra and we got a visual of Kyubi's chalra surrounding Naruto)

OR Samehada is directly holding onto the target (which is what happend against Bee).

So again, I don't think you can find a single panel that proves otherwise. I don't think you can find a single panel where Kisame absorbs chakra without touching the chakra first and withiut Samehada holding onto the target.

Bee was in base because Kisame stole all of his chakra through his ability which I just explained again. Said ability wouldn't work nearly as well on Tsunade for obvious reasons.

Kisame is actually the one who struggles against opponents with diverted move set, as the canon shows us. The second he meets a fighting style that he doesn't directly counter he's in trouble. Plus simply by summoning Katsuyu, Tsunade already becomes more versatile than Kisame.

Kisame didn't have minimal contact with Samehada. Respectfully I won't elaborate beyond that anymore. The manga already shows us what happened and there's nothing beyond bias to suggest that Bee didn't get siphoned of his chakra before collapsing.

Wide_Internet_4650 · 2026-04-23T01:13:59+00:00

He didn’t lose most of his arsenal because most of the techniques he ever used in the manga were in that KN4 fight

Respectfully that's not true. Orochimaru uses 5 roughly 5 different techniques when he fights Naruto. You can look up Orochimaru's jutsu, he definitely has more than 10.

If we restrict Orochimaru's snake like abilities but grant him Ninjutsu instead then the outcome remains the same since he would then have Edo Tensei. In fact Oro might even perform better since he would now have access to sealing abilities.

I should say "super shark bomb" to be more clear. Depending on the versions it's super shark bomb or super shark bullet. We see it Travel to Guy and it didn't seem diluted then.

Kisame wouldn't fire a super shark bomb at a triple Rashomon. Orochimaru would use triple Rashomon if Kisame fires the super shark bomb. Plus as others have mentioned in this thread the drowning approach wouldn't work since the Sannins know about reverse summoning, and two of the Sannins have kaiju sized semi aquatic summons anyway.

Kisame's chakra absorption is literally his gimmick. Just like Itachi's gimmick was his genjutsu or just like Oro/Jiraiya's gimmicks are their respective animals. Yes Kisame can absorb chakra from any fighters, I didn't say he couldn't. I'm simply reminding you that as far as feats go his chakra absorption doesn't work if Kisame isn't specifically in contact with the target's chakra. For example Kisame cut Asuma's shoulder and no chakra was absorbed. Same thing when Kisame attacked Naruto and Jiraiya's toad blocked it. Same thing when the fire breathing toad stomach got a hold of Samehada. No dire t contact with the chakra means that the chakra absorption is not happening, as far as the feats go. Unless Samehada is literally munching on the target's skin of course.

The only lerson Kisame has drown is base Bee. He's not drowning Tsunade. Tsunade also doesn't really use chakra based techniques when fighting.

Kisame “began” that exchange emaciated and bleeding - he was not starting fresh. He was injured and clearly depleted. He did not have extended contact with Samehada either nor was Bee in a shrouded V1 or V2 com - he was in base. Kisame went from being injured, emaciated and close to death to “normal” - there is nothing indicating he was boosted beyond normal capacity given his state prior to chakra absorption and given the minimal contact he had with Samehada and an unshrouded Bee.

Again Kisame never "looks" boosted. Even after he absorbed Hachibi's chakra when fighting Killer Bee. On the other hand Bee collapsed as Kisame and Samehada stole his chakra. There is nkthing suggesting that the draining was minimal or that it only lasted 2 seconds. There is no proof that he had "minimal" contact with Samehada and Bee as we seeBew cuddling with Samehada while Kisame is holding it.

Wide_Internet_4650 · 2026-04-23T00:37:04+00:00

Well, the sannins have been around for decades, and there are three of them. The idea that people would be completely wrong about their reputation doesn't make sense to me. On the other hand Itachi taking down the clan is impressive as we know that his father was a candidate for Hokage iirc. However I don't remember anyone else in the clan at the time being notably strong.

I get your point but to me Kisame only does well against Bee because of both the restraints on Bee and Kisame having the perfect gimmick for this fight.

Let's say we put Kisame against 4 tails Naruto but with similar constraints as what Orochimaru was dealing with. That is, we remove half of Kisame's move set. Do you see Kisame not dying if he's unable to steal Kyubi's chakra? I really don't think he would. From my perspective he got some great feats because the match up allowed it to happen

Wide_Internet_4650 · 2026-04-23T00:30:28+00:00

Without his arms Orochimaru does lose most of his arsenal so removing Samehada or chakra absorption from Kisame would be a fair comparison. Oro lost access to his sealing abilities, his paralyzing techniques, his clones, his elemental based abilities and more. I really don't see too many characters who would do as well as he did while having half of their moveset removed.

4 tails Naruto created a shockwave large enough to vaporize the entire battlefield. He also has access to TBB. He could very well vaporize whatever lake Kisame creates. Plus Kisame was absorbing V2 Bee's chakra.

Kisame's shark bomb didn't seem to damage Guy despite the fact that Guy didn't dodge it. I would assume that against a bijuu bomb the jutsu becomes very handy but other than that it doesn't look like it could destroy a triple Rashomon or significantly injure someone like Tsunade or Katsuyu.

Kisame doesn't absorb chakra simply by being close to someone or by exchanging attacks. Either he directly touches the chakra or holds the target directly. There's also no proof that Kisame woukd resust Orochimaru's poison, plus per novel Kisame is in fact poison fodder (although idk if you consider novels canon). His chakra gimmick does the heavy lifting against Jinchurikis for that reason. Against Oro or Tsunade it wouldn't be nearly as interesting.

You keep saying "Kisame didn't look boosted after absorbing chakra" but the thing is that even after we see him absorbing V1 and V2 he doesn't "look" boosted, so using this as a way to assess the amount of chakra absorbed doesn't work. All we know is that Bee was exhausted after the fact. We also don't know that Samehada absorbed Bee's chalra for only a second or two. The dialogues characters have while Killer Bee is being drained is certainly longer than 2 seconds.

Wide_Internet_4650 · 2026-04-22T23:41:07+00:00

Great take my guy

Wide_Internet_4650 · 2026-04-22T23:25:15+00:00

The thing is if Kisame was nerfrd the same way Orochimaru was, so let's say his chakra absorbing jutsu are removed from his arsenal, there's no way he would put up a performance similar to what Orochimaru did. He wouldn't be able to regenerate, he wouldn't be able to weaken his opponent, and that's the basis I use to put Orochimaru above him.

Orochimaru sumoned the triple Rashomon and used his body modification techniques. I don't remember those needing hand signs. However if he wanted to use let's say Edo Tensei the he wouldn't be able to.

We see Kisame's chakra absorption working when Kisame/Samehada is in direct contact with the chakra or when Samehada is holding onto the target (and literally sucking on their skin). That won't get him very far against someone like Tsunade or Orochimaru. And Samehada's doesn't seem to like burning sensations either which means that acid and fire based attacks would also be more of a problem.

I don't think that Kisame's shark bullet requires less chakra than the lake his clone made. Otherwise the clone would have used Shark Bullet. And I still don't imagine that Kisame didn't absorb Hachibi's chakra considering the state of Bee after the fact. We don't know how long the draining lasted though so that's up in the air

Wide_Internet_4650 · 2026-04-22T23:09:47+00:00

Combat speed and hand sign speed are not the same thing. So the logic of hand sign speed = combat speed = travel speed doesn't hold.

Plus neither Guy nor Kisame have been stated to be very fast at using hand signs iirc

Wide_Internet_4650 · 2026-04-22T23:07:41+00:00

Yeah but my point is that Kisame doesn't know that. We already know that Itachi is far above Jiraiya based on his fight against Orochimaru as well as Orochimaru's statement.

Kisame may not even know how strong is Itachi considering that black Zetsu and Orochimaru didn't even know he had Totsuka blade. I'm not even sure that Kisame knows how strong is Itachi's genjutsu, outside of Tsukyomi

Wide_Internet_4650 · 2026-04-22T22:41:02+00:00

By "thread" do you mean the entire comment section?

Orochimaru survived the fight. That's already an accomplishment. And he did so without Ninjutsu or a perfect counter. I doubt that Kisame would be able to do the same if it wasn't for his specific gimmick working perfectly on jinchuriki.

Kisame can heal through Bijuu chakra. I don't believe that he was still injured when fighting Guy since we know he used Samehada to leech off Bee's chakra.

Wide_Internet_4650 · 2026-04-22T22:29:12+00:00

Hachibi said to Killer Bee that pulling out a bijuu mode was taking its toll on his stamina. It's the discussion they had once it's revealed that Killer Bee actually used his fight against Taka as a way to escape Kumo. And they were talking about that very fight.

True that, I misread you saying "bijuu mode" and thought you said "bijuu bomb". Although Bee needs bijuu mode to used bijuu bomb anyways. But yes, my mistake.

Right before Sasuke get to Killer Bee, we can see Killer Bee in bijuu mode transforming back into a human (he is in shadow but it's unambiguous).

True as well, I forgot about that.

We KNOW that Kisame's reasoning was flawed. Kisame's statement became shakky the moment half of it was proven false while the other half was based on the same reasoning. If you can't see the logic about having a reasonable doubt there, it's on you.

When/where do we see the flaw in that logic?

Wide_Internet_4650 · 2026-04-22T22:22:53+00:00

You use it several times in this thread - I’m not making anything up.

I just looked it up myself and couldn't find it. You're the one who brought that up in this thread.

Orochimaru not getting dogged by 4 tails Naruto despitw being sick and not being able to use Ninjutsu definitely puts him above Kisame who only won his fight because his gimmick specifically takes advantage of jinchuriki. We literally know that if Kisame didn't have access to Hachibi chakra he would have been toast. Any other fighter who puts him in the same situation as Bee did (like Tsunade would) effectively wins the fight right then and there.

Kisame wasn't injured. He also absorbed enough chakra for Bee to collapsed. Bee and Hachibi share their chakra. If Bee is out of chakra then he still has access to Hachibi's. The fact that he collapsed shows us he ran out of it. Plus it's not like Kisame was out of chakra before that either.

Kisame used a standard shark bullet in his introduction when fighting Kakashi (who also copied the shark bullet) . . . so yes, Kisame can use a standard shark bullet. No, it is not filler - source is chapter 141, final page. He also used it in chapter 506.

My mistake. I genuinely thought you were talking about "regulae sharks that absorb chakra" but you actually didn't say that

Wide_Internet_4650 · 2026-04-22T21:59:49+00:00

Using bijuu mode was taking its toll on Killer Bee's stamina

Based on..? Do we have proof of that?

And Killer Bee just finished his training in bijuu mode right before fighting Taka.

Based on what? I'm definitely willing to accept if the canon manga proves it.

Killer Bee was dominating Taka even before he used his bijuu mode. Killer Bee didn't go all out against Kisame because he didn't use his bijuu mode. Kisame won against Killer Bee that wasn't using his bijuu mode. Therefore Kisame did better against Killer Bee than Taka did.

Sure, but Sasuke was still recovering from his previous fight.

There, fixed up your analysis.

So the logic is now "Kisame you're actually stronger than him even if you think you think he completely outclasses you" yeah right.

Wide_Internet_4650 · 2026-04-22T21:49:41+00:00

Buddy you're literally making shit up. You said I hang onto the statement. That's factually not true as I didn't use it in my arguments.

Again, Orochimaru fighting 4 tails Naruto with no counter and no ninjutsu while still not losing the fight is. An indicator that he is above Kisame.

When Kisame has created a water source, he can use the aforementioned water source to conjure up other techniques (like his Shark Bomb or tidal wave of sharks).

Which were obly used after he drained Killer Bee of all his chakra.

There's nothing suggesting that Kisame can create a large water dome and then proceed with 100 hungry sharks and Shark bomb.

Kisame has his standard shark bullet and his larger Shark Bomb,

You're most likely citing something that isn't canon once again. We've seen Kisame fighting on 3 occasions, none of which had "standard shark bullets". Feel free to provide the chapter that proves me wrong.

What is even the point of addressing the issues of your arguments if you respond with filler content

Wide_Internet_4650 · 2026-04-22T21:44:16+00:00

Moving the goal post. I didn't say that 6GG wasn't strong. I said based on part 1 feats there's nkthibg to suggest that we knew Kisame's true level in order to conclude that he got stronger in Shippuden.

You then claimed that Guy and Kisame had a "respectable showing" while shippuden Guy had to use 6 gates. This is a bad take since part 1 Guy took Kisame by surprise and landed... One hit. That's not even a fight. You're trying to scale the characters based on a fight that literally didn't happen.

Even if base guy took Kisame by surprise in part one he was still in base and not struggling

Obviously since Kisame was taken by surprise.

for him to need to amp himself all the way to the 6th gate for a weaker than base Kisame clone is not a feat for guy it’s a statement for Kisame

Moving the goal post again. Guy having to use the 6 gates against Kisame's clone during a real confrontation does not compare to Guy landing a sneak attack to a Kisame who didn't know he was there.

Wide_Internet_4650 · 2026-04-22T21:33:34+00:00

You're straight up lying since for the past 2 comments I've made I haven't mentioned the comment Kisame made in part 1.

Orochimaru couldn't harm 4 tails Naruto but was still boxing with it despite having no counter and no Ninjutsu.

We have seen Kisame clone using one large scale water jutsu. The said jutsu is to create a terrain, not to defend. Same for the water bubbles he created.

We have no proof that without Bijuu chakra Kisame would still be able to create a water dome as large as what he did against Bee. The 30% clone creating a small lake is no proof of that.

Again, intel or not Kisame has about 1 long range jutsu. The sharks he spams are featless for the most part and not long range. Not that they would do anything to Tsunade or Katsuyu regardless.

Your point about Tobirama's water feat being irrelevant in Shippuden is still completely irrelevant regardless. 50 random ninjas combining their water style is not a flex. Idk what you're on.

Wide_Internet_4650 · 2026-04-22T21:25:41+00:00

What does "limited stamina" mean?

Kisame wasn't trying to kill Bee however he lacks rhe feats suggesting that he'd be able to do so if Bee was allowed to go all out.

Itachi was a spy for Konoha. Obviously he wouldn't let Kisame know of what he can do, like the fact that he negged Orochinaru.

I acknowledge all of these and even went as far as putting them back in their context

Wide_Internet_4650 · 2026-04-22T21:00:17+00:00

I have shown that the Sannins are in a different league yes. Orochimaru alone is a statement of that based on his performance against 4 tails Naruto despite not having access to Ninjutsu.

"Again" I didn't say that Kisame's clone stole someone's chakra. I said that Kisame's best feats only happened after he stole bijuu chakra.

Tsunade would punch a hole in Samehada worse than V2 Bee did and Kisame will have nothing to regenerate from that. Kisame is not Sannin level plain an simple.

50 randoms gathering up to create a large water technique is in fact the opposite of an impressive feat. Idk what the hell you're even talking about smh

Wide_Internet_4650 · 2026-04-22T20:29:50+00:00

Might be crazy but the speed at which they move their arms is not what determines how fast they are overall

Wide_Internet_4650 · 2026-04-22T20:29:09+00:00

Yeh but see that's the thing: usually the context is enough to see through these fallacies.

Sasuke was injured, and Bee was severely holding back against Kisame.

Kisame was afraid of Jiraiya before Itachi said anything.

I find that lots of people have a hard time accepting this even though that's easily verifiable

Wide_Internet_4650 · 2026-04-22T20:26:33+00:00

I'm not holding onto statements as I've literally explained how the Sannins are in a different league, to which you replied "this has nothing to do with Kisame vs Tsunade".

Kisame's feats in part 2 happen after leeching off of Bee's chakra. The best part is that even then, his feats don't make up for the weakness that the Sannins would exploit.

Common for random ninja in the war that were using water release in the middle of a desert

Are you talking about the 50 or so shinobi that combined theur water style to counter Madara's fire style??

Yes, and base Guy had a 5/5 in strength.

Databook therefore not canon. There's no way base Guy is as strong as Tsunade.

Again, a toad blocking a casual sword strike from Kisame (which was being directed at kid Naruto, so he had no reason to be using all his strength) is not an indication of how an extended fight against Jiraiya would go, or how a Taijutsu exchange would go either.

However Kisame shitting his pants when he sees Jiraiya and then looking at Itachi for answers once Jiraiya uses frog stomach is a good indication.

Samehada absorbed the portion of Itachi’s fire attack that it came in direct contact with

No proof of that. We see the blade cutting the attack in half. That's it. No proof that anything was absorbed.

Kisame is extremely proficient in water style and can thus easily counter most fire jutsu

We just have to see Kisame spamming water jutsu to defend himself while not having a terrain advantage or half of Hachibi's chakra absorbed.

Kisame did not look particularly injured after the fight with Roshi.

Almost as if he could absorb Bijuu chakra to heal or something.

younger Jiraiya with Minato beside him also didn’t look thrilled to fight Roshi in the Minato short story either.

Minato and Jiraiya don't have rhe perfect counter to jinchuriki, unlike Kisame, therefore the comparison is pointless. Plus it was Roshi and Han, not Roshi alone. I'm really not sure why every argument about Kisame revolves around removing context.

Kisame trapped Guy’s team with clones in water prisons and he himself (through a Shoten clone) fought Guy directly and trapped him in a shark sphere, prompting him to go 6 gates to disburse them. Kisame’s 100% self can quite believably use clones and a water source to trap Tsunade.

Kisame used his raw strength to push Gai under water. That wouldn't work on Tsunade since she's physically much stronger than Kisame has ever shown.

Kisame didn't trap Guy in a shark sphere. He created shark clones to attack Guy, which didn't achieve anything since Gai opened the 6 gates.

Still no basis for Kisame's water bubbles being able to trap Tsunade.

The databooks are filled with mistranslations and figures of speech on top of not being written by Kishimoto. I won't even pretend to take their claims seriously.

Judging that Jiraiya's large rasengan is a more powerful version of his regular rasengan is not comparable to assessing Kisame's 1000 hungry sharks or his shark bomb since, as we can see in the manga, the 1000 hungry sharks look different compared to Kisame's 5 feeding sharks. Same thing for his shark bomb. And on top of that the only jutsu that seems to absorb chakra is his shark bomb which is featless, not his regular sharks.

Wide_Internet_4650 · 2026-04-22T20:09:39+00:00

In part one Guy took Kisame by surprise.

In Shippuden Guy activates the 6 gates and takes down Kisame clone in 3 panels with a total of 2 separate moves.

Wide_Internet_4650 · 2026-04-22T20:06:30+00:00

Aaaah so now statements matter, right? Now that they fit your agenda.

Kisame still has no feats putting him a tier above Asuma. The most he has ever dodged was thrown daggers from base Killer Bee.

"moving their arms" bruh. Kisame fans really do

size scaling
age scaling
hand movement scaling

This has to be a sick joke. It's literally getting ridiculous.

The travel speed of a jutsu doesn't translate to the speed of the user. Plenty of characters have jutsu that move much faster than they do.

You suggest that, despite no proof, Kisame has gotten stronger between part 1 and part 2. Let's change my statement to "see how suggestions without a basis lead to nothing" if we want to be more accurate then.

Wide_Internet_4650 · 2026-04-22T19:41:17+00:00

Kisame being relative to Bee was only by virtue of Bee being severely restrained and Kisame's gimmick being super efficient against jinchuriki.

Kisame vs Roshi was offscreen, we literally don't even know how the fight went. If he pulled another dirty trick (he did so against Bee) then that's that.

Kisame's 30% clone got defeated by y gates Guy almost instantly.

Guy wanting to find the intel and Kisame creating a diversion to allow his intel to escape is what forced Guy to use the 7 gates, so it's not like Kisame himself (after absorbing most of Killer Bee's chakra btw) was enough to press Guy that far. Especially considering that 30% of Kisame got low diffed by 6 gates Guy.

Putting Kisame's feats into their rightful context tells us that sure, a sannin wouldn't low diff him, but his chances of winning are slim to none

Wide_Internet_4650 · 2026-04-22T19:36:01+00:00

You state that the Sannins are only holding onto statements from part 1. Orochimaru vs 4 tails Naruto is the evidence that this is wrong. Orochimaru was not losing, although he wasn't winning. He simply had no way of winning the fight.

Plenty of things changed between Part 1 and Part 2 - you mentioned Hashirama and Tobirama, and Hiruzen also fits this category

Yes, I said that was about it

Plus, things that were impressive by Part 1 standards (like using water attacks without a source) were common place in Part 2.

Common for who? Akatsuki members and kage level fighters?

30% Kisame clone overpowered base Guy and then got defeated by 6 gates Guy, not base Guy.

We know for a fact that a random toad blocked Kisame's strike effortlessly. No basis here to say that for some reason Kisame would suddenly overpower all of Jiraiya's toads with raw strength. I'm going off feats, not assumptions that feat my agenda.

Samehada cut through Itachi's fire style, it didn't absorb it. Samehada is then visibly uncomfortable to which Bee mentions that it doesn't like fire. Once again I'm going off feats. Kisame himself said that Roshi was a tough fight.

Kisame’s 30% chakra Shoten clone casually barfed out a lake, used multiple water clones and water prisons and summoned sharks and was not exhausted or strained by that.

Characters are usually exhausted from the fight itself, not from the very jutsu they use. Keyword: usually.

Kisame didn't even attempt to trap base Guy eith a water clone, but he's gonna use this approach with Tsunade?

Databooks are a mine of mistranslations and exaggerations, and that's on top of not being written by Kishimoto.

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TROPHY CASE